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Iran chooses to remain an enemy

You still don't get it about time--you're blaming everything on a situation which predates the supposed cause.
What are you talking about? They have an armed to the teeth Saudi Arabia and a nuclear armed Israel for neighbors.

Well to be fair, Saudi Arabia and Israel can't go to war without first asking permission of their arms dealer, which is why Iran is negotiating with us, not them.

As far as Loren being clear, remember that he's coming from a position of "Israel can do no wrong." Hence, no matter the situation, he'll argue that Israel is doing/has done/will do the right thing.
 
What are you talking about? They have an armed to the teeth Saudi Arabia and a nuclear armed Israel for neighbors.

Well to be fair, Saudi Arabia and Israel can't go to war without first asking permission of their arms dealer, which is why Iran is negotiating with us, not them.

As far as Loren being clear, remember that he's coming from a position of "Israel can do no wrong." Hence, no matter the situation, he'll argue that Israel is doing/has done/will do the right thing.

Do you mean "we" okayed that last bombing of Gaza? It appears Netanyahu is as close to a megalomaniac as anybody in contemporary politics. He is obviously not above provoking international violence.

About Loren: Shhhh! He doesn't know we know that yet and that keeps him arguing.
 
You're getting offense and defense mixed up.

Israel's neighbors want to destroy Israel simply because it exists.

Many of them want to destroy Israel solely based on it's behavior.

Many people condemn 47 years of oppression, denial of rights, and theft.

Iran is facing a threat of retaliation for it's offensive actions.

Iran's offensive actions pale in comparison to US and Israeli aggression.

Iran has never done anything close to the invasion of Iraq, nor does it attack any population the way Israel attacks the Palestinians in Gaza or Lebanon every couple of years.
 
Really? Last I checked, your country already went in to topple their government once. Backed their enemy in a war another time. Your country hasn't exactly been friendly towards them, going on constantly about how you want to bomb them.

We toppled a Soviet-backed government. Both sides did such things in the cold war.

Does Iran not have the right to defend itself? And why should the nation with the most dangerous arsenal have any moral standing about other people acquiring weapons? Maybe if you scaled back your own nuclear arsenal, maybe then we could take you seriously.

The most potentially dangerous nation is the US, not Iran.

We have more total power, we aren't going around sponsoring armed movements that are turning countries into puppets, though.

Be peaceful, both inside (no genocides, don't go attacking Americans in your country) and out (wars or proxy wars) and you don't have anything to fear from the US.

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Except the regional powers in the area are not worried that Israel will try to destabilize them and/or sponsor aggression against them.

You're kidding, right?

You accuse me of being naive and having a suspect perspective and then you claim that nobody in the region is the least bit worried about Israel?


:rolleyesa:

Can you name one nation that Israel has tried to undermine?

"We WERE too undermining other countries...especially if they had a little oil.
 
The wars existed before 1967. There's no reason to think that returning to the 67 borders would bring peace. That's just a deception for western ears--they regard all of Israel as "occupied territory"--the end of the occupation is the destruction of Israel. That's what they say will bring peace.

Israel should also leave the Palestinian farms and homes it has occupied. Returning to the 67 borders would be one step forward but not the solution. A Joint State or a federation of the two states of Israel and Palestine, would benefit not just the two communities but the whole of the Middle East. Getting there would take a series of steps.

The Jews and Palestinians are part of the same group of people; they are cousins. Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Palestinians are radicals.

In other words, the right of return--and the genocide of the Jews.
 
and the genocide of the Jews.


EVERYTHING with you is "the genocide of the Jews," Loren.


If an Arab wakes up in the morning you imagine it is part of the "genocide of the Jews."


Is there a point where you're going to admit that Israel is more than capable of defending herself?
 
You still don't get it about time--you're blaming everything on a situation which predates the supposed cause.
What are you talking about? They have an armed to the teeth Saudi Arabia and a nuclear armed Israel for neighbors. They have no "choice" at all. Stop trying to bullshit us without telling us what the hell you are talking about! Which situation are you talking about? C'mon! Be Clear.

Do you know what a calendar is?

The problems predate Israel being nuclear armed. The problems predate there being any occupied territory by western definition. (The Muslims consider all of Israel to be occupied and that's what they mean by the end of the occupation.)
 
Many of them want to destroy Israel solely based on it's behavior.

Many people condemn 47 years of oppression, denial of rights, and theft.

What neighbor of Israel wants to destroy them now that didn't want to before the events you refer to?

Iran is facing a threat of retaliation for it's offensive actions.

Iran's offensive actions pale in comparison to US and Israeli aggression.

Iran has never done anything close to the invasion of Iraq, nor does it attack any population the way Israel attacks the Palestinians in Gaza or Lebanon every couple of years.

Iran has killed more Iraqis than the US.

And those attacks on the Palestinians have been due to Iranian-backed attacks on Israel. (Admittedly, these days it's more Qatar behind it than Iran.)
 
and the genocide of the Jews.


EVERYTHING with you is "the genocide of the Jews," Loren.


If an Arab wakes up in the morning you imagine it is part of the "genocide of the Jews."


Is there a point where you're going to admit that Israel is more than capable of defending herself?

Because that's the objective of the Muslims. Your side doesn't want to admit this but that doesn't make it go away.
 
Israel never signed the NPT, they aren't bound by it. And Israel is using its nukes to avoid being annihilated like it's neighbors have tried to do multiple times. They've faced 3 wars bent on destroying them as a nation--and now that they have the bomb there have been no major wars. They aren't using them as protection from retaliation because nobody is even trying to retaliate against them.

Thanks for reminding me once again that your position is "If Israel Does It, I Support It."

You're actually arguing that Israel is right to threaten her neighbors with nuclear annihilation (though I bet if pressed you'd never admit they actually have nuclear weapons) because they feel threatened, but that Iran has no right whatsoever to similarly arm themselves. Might makes right in your world, and so long as Israel has (allegedly) nuclear weapons, no other nation in the region can.

Yet while taking the "Israel is just a terrified victim (with nuclear weapons)" position, you went off book. Nobody is trying to retaliate against Israel? Your entire argument is premised on the notion that Israel is inches away from total destruction by hostile neighbors, but now you're claiming nobody is even trying to attack them?

You're gonna half to go back to the Bibi Netanyahu School of Likud Talking Points and get a refresher course!
It is. It would take just one single bomb to destroy tiny Israel! Iran is hundreds of times larger, and would take one hundred nuclear strikes to obliterate this evil empire.
 
Well to be fair, Saudi Arabia and Israel can't go to war without first asking permission of their arms dealer, which is why Iran is negotiating with us, not them.

As far as Loren being clear, remember that he's coming from a position of "Israel can do no wrong." Hence, no matter the situation, he'll argue that Israel is doing/has done/will do the right thing.

Do you mean "we" okayed that last bombing of Gaza? It appears Netanyahu is as close to a megalomaniac as anybody in contemporary politics. He is obviously not above provoking international violence.

About Loren: Shhhh! He doesn't know we know that yet and that keeps him arguing.
At the risk of once more being reported, this post stinks to high heaven! Why don't you admit that you <edited>, and are not necessarily pro Arab, it's just that your <edited> overwhelms everything else!!!
 
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Thanks for reminding me once again that your position is "If Israel Does It, I Support It."

You're actually arguing that Israel is right to threaten her neighbors with nuclear annihilation (though I bet if pressed you'd never admit they actually have nuclear weapons) because they feel threatened, but that Iran has no right whatsoever to similarly arm themselves. Might makes right in your world, and so long as Israel has (allegedly) nuclear weapons, no other nation in the region can.

Yet while taking the "Israel is just a terrified victim (with nuclear weapons)" position, you went off book. Nobody is trying to retaliate against Israel? Your entire argument is premised on the notion that Israel is inches away from total destruction by hostile neighbors, but now you're claiming nobody is even trying to attack them?

You're gonna half to go back to the Bibi Netanyahu School of Likud Talking Points and get a refresher course!
It is. It would take just one single bomb to destroy tiny Israel! Iran is hundreds of times larger, and would take one hundred nuclear strikes to obliterate this evil empire.

A 20 megaton bomb (rather larger than most nukes) has an effective radius of destruction of un-hardened buildings of about 17km (based on a 5psi blast overpressure, and on an air-burst at the optimum height of about 18,000ft AGL); unprotected buildings would catch fire out to a radius of about 30km.

According to Wikipedia, Israel stretches 424 km from north to south, and its width ranges from 114 km to, at its narrowest point, 15 km. Assuming that burning down most of the buildings would suffice, destroying all of Israel would take about 30 such huge bombs.

Of course, it makes little sense to nuke the Negev desert; according to Wikipedia, in total, Israel has 74 cities, 14 of which have populations of over 100,000. So if you only care about the big cities, 14 nukes would suffice (and these could be in the more 'sensible' 1 megaton range, rather than being 20MT blockbusters*); If you want to knock out all of the smaller cities as well, you might be best served to use fourteen megaton range devices plus a further sixty in the 10-20 kiloton range.

One nuke could wipe out Tel-Aviv, but would not "destroy Israel" on its own.

One hundred nukes would be far from sufficient to destroy Iran, using the same standard; 31 nukes would suffice to destroy all of the provincial capitals, but smaller towns and cities are very numerous; a quick google suggests that there are around a thousand of these; so you could probably do the job with 30 or so megaton range bombs, and about a thousand more yielding in the 10-20 kiloton range.

Your estimate for the number of nukes required to destroy Israel is too low by a factor of between 14 and 74; Your estimate for the number required to destroy Iran is not too bad, ranging from too high by a factor of three, to too low by a factor of ten, depending on your criterion for 'destroying' or 'obliterating' a country.

Of course, if simply eliminating the current government suffices as 'destroying' a country, one or two low-yield devices would probably suffice in either case - as long as your intelligence could correctly determine the whereabouts of the various people who make up the government at the time of the strike.

Given that a nation with all of its major cities destroyed is unlikely to retain the ability to threaten her neighbours, I would say that the best guesstimate would be 14 nukes to wipe out Israel and about twice that number to wipe out Iran; A ratio of 2:1, which is rather less than your suggested 100:1 ratio.

I conclude that your hyperbole in this post has an estimated factor of fifty. If you divided your pro-Israel bias by fifty, then you might be somewhere close to reality.




*Even small nukes make a big bang, and so the effectiveness of a given mega-tonnage is far greater if you use lots of small bombs rather than one big one. Ten 100KT devices are a lot more destructive than one 1MT device; a hundred 10KT bombs are even more destructive again - not least because population tends to clump in towns and cities, so one big bomb just ends up extending the destruction out of the city and into surrounding farmland, while each small bomb can target the centre of a built up area. In the case of Israel, smaller devices also have the advantage of reducing any 'overspill' of blast or heat effects to areas outside the borders of the country itself, although radioactive fallout effects are obviously not so well contained in either scenario**. The 16KT device dropped on Hiroshima effectively destroyed that city, which had a population of about 350,000, about a third of whom were killed by the immediate impact of the bomb, with another third being injured. No matter how big the device had been, it could not have killed more than three times the actual number of people, simply because that was all there were in the target area. The difference between a 1MT and a 20MT device when targeting civilians in un-hardened buildings is purely academic; they all die in either case. The really big bombs are only good for wiping out hardened targets and/or targets for which the exact aim-point is uncertain.

**Radiation effects at Hiroshima probably killed about 1-2% of the number of people killed by the immediate blast and heat; Modern thermonuclear weapons are cleaner, and the effect of (and means to protect from) radiation after a nuclear strike are far better understood today, so radiation effects would likely be fairly small in relation to the big picture - albeit still accounting for thousands of deaths. Ecological non-radioactive effects, (eg 'nuclear winter' due to stratospheric particulate smoke) would likely cause non-trivial remote casualties over time in the Northern Hemisphere in any case, through diverse effects including crop failure induced famine, for example.
 
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There is almost no danger that Iran will nuke Israel - the paranoia is absurd. The danger about a nuclear armed Iran is that it will spur nukes to proliferate across the middle east, substantially raising the risk that one of these middle eastern countries will lose control of their nukes in a political collapse via a coup or a revolution, allowing the nukes to get in the wrong hands. The nukes in the wrong hands may result in Israel getting nuked, or some other area in the middle east getting nuked, or even a nuke getting smuggled into Europe and let off in a main city area.

I currently put the odds that a nuke will go off in an attack at some point in my lifetime at 33%. I would raise those odds to 50% if Iran obtains nukes (and not because I think Iran will be the one launching the nukes, although it would become a small but not insignificant possibility).
 
So you're arguing that nukes only belong in the 'right' hands. Can you see how a country that you consider to be the wrong hands might see that as a hypocritical position? Can you see why that might, in turn, spur them to regard you as less reasonably, by taking it as evidence that you never intended those you disagree with on political grounds getting parity with yourself? Can you see how that might, then, in turn, encourage them acquire any and all means to defend themselves against such an unreasonable power, who is literally arguing that they should be kept in a militarily subservient position? Can you see how the obvious means to protect themselves from you would be to acquire nukes?

Can you see how you're choosing to remain an enemy with them, rather than vice versa, simply because you don't want people with their views to have military power?
 
What neighbor of Israel wants to destroy them now that didn't want to before the events you refer to?

Nobody has attacked Israel militarily in 43 years.

Not because Israelis have any special qualities but because of hundreds of billions of dollars of US support, Israel has nothing to fear militarily from any of it's neighbors.

Iran's offensive actions pale in comparison to US and Israeli aggression.

Iran has never done anything close to the invasion of Iraq, nor does it attack any population the way Israel attacks the Palestinians in Gaza or Lebanon every couple of years.

Iran has killed more Iraqis than the US.

And those attacks on the Palestinians have been due to Iranian-backed attacks on Israel. (Admittedly, these days it's more Qatar behind it than Iran.)

No. You can't abandon the principles of Nuremberg so easily.

When the Germans attacked other nations in WWII we established the principle that all crimes that follow after an invasion are the responsibility of the invaders. Aggressive warfare is the supreme crime.

All Iraqi deaths since the invasion are the responsibility of the US. The US destroyed the ability of Iraqi's to defend themselves from anybody. If Iran moved in that is only because the US made it possible.
 
At the risk of once more being reported, this post stinks to high heaven! Why don't you admit that you <edited>, and are not necessarily pro Arab, it's just that your <edited> overwhelms everything else!!

Being critical of Benjamin Netanyahu does not mean that one is anti-semite. He absolutely does deliberately provoke foreign countries, so he can play to the siege mentality crowd. There's quite a few in Israel itself that agree with this.
 
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EVERYTHING with you is "the genocide of the Jews," Loren.


If an Arab wakes up in the morning you imagine it is part of the "genocide of the Jews."


Is there a point where you're going to admit that Israel is more than capable of defending herself?

Because that's the objective of the Muslims. Your side doesn't want to admit this but that doesn't make it go away.



Islamophobia
/ˌɪzlɑːməˈfəʊbɪə/
noun
1.
hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
 
There is almost no danger that Iran will nuke Israel - the paranoia is absurd. The danger about a nuclear armed Iran is that it will spur nukes to proliferate across the middle east, substantially raising the risk that one of these middle eastern countries will lose control of their nukes in a political collapse via a coup or a revolution, allowing the nukes to get in the wrong hands. The nukes in the wrong hands may result in Israel getting nuked, or some other area in the middle east getting nuked, or even a nuke getting smuggled into Europe and let off in a main city area.

I currently put the odds that a nuke will go off in an attack at some point in my lifetime at 33%. I would raise those odds to 50% if Iran obtains nukes (and not because I think Iran will be the one launching the nukes, although it would become a small but not insignificant possibility).

1) Directly nuke Israel, no. Provide a nuke they think is deniable to a terrorist, maybe....

2) Besides, the real issue is using the nukes as a shield against retaliation for the acts of their terrorists. How about attacks on chemical factories? Bophal could have been reproduced with a truck bomb.

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Because that's the objective of the Muslims. Your side doesn't want to admit this but that doesn't make it go away.



Islamophobia
/ˌɪzlɑːməˈfəʊbɪə/
noun
1.
hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture

Phobias are irrational threats. The position of the Islamists is clear, why do you stick your head in the sand about what they want?
 
Phobias are irrational threats. The position of the Islamists is clear, why do you stick your head in the sand about what they want?


You said that "the genocide of Jews" is " the objective of the Muslims."

That is an irrational fear, unless of course you've got data that the vast majority of the world's 1 billion Muslims advocate "genocide of the Jews."
 
I think most people do believe the goal should be preventing Iran or any other nation from getting nukes.

The ultimate goal should be the elimination of nukes altogether.

And in terms of Iran that should start with Israel.

It is Israeli posturing and threats driving Iran towards nukes.
 
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