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Iran chooses to remain an enemy

These arguments about the US deciding which countries should be allowed the privilege of having nuclear weapons sound, to me, a lot like arguments about the US government deciding which people should be allowed the privilege of owning handguns.

What do you think about that comparison, Loren?
 
These arguments about the US deciding which countries should be allowed the privilege of having nuclear weapons sound, to me, a lot like arguments about the US government deciding which people should be allowed the privilege of owning handguns.

What do you think about that comparison, Loren?

Each additional country that obtains nuclear weapons goes one step further in undermining nuclear non-proliferation efforts. The US and the world community has "decided" that no additional countries should be able to obtain them. The alternative is that everyone gets them (there are about 30 non-nuclear states that could obtain them quickly should they decide to focus their efforts). If you are concerned about such weapons being used in a conflict or getting into terrorist hands, then you should support the non-proliferation efforts. If you don't think we should do anything to reduce the risk of nukes being used at some point to attack a city, then you are right, we should let anyone and and everyone build as many as they can.

Do you think nothing should be done to to prevent the reversal of this trend?

3043219-slide-s-1-how-many-nukes-are-there-in-the-world.jpg


http://thebulletin.org/nuclear-notebook-multimedia
 
I understand the logic behind non-proliferation. I also understand how that will be seen as totally unfair and unreasonable by those excluded. Perhaps we could all take it more seriously if a great power like the USA actually took efforts to REDUCE its own arms as it goes around telling others they can't have them. The hypocrisy is staggering and you will just never get passed it.
 
I understand the logic behind non-proliferation. I also understand how that will be seen as totally unfair and unreasonable by those excluded. Perhaps we could all take it more seriously if a great power like the USA actually took efforts to REDUCE its own arms as it goes around telling others they can't have them. The hypocrisy is staggering and you will just never get passed it.

They were being steadily reduced but the decline stopped under Obama. Gee, thanks Obama. Clinton wasn't much help either. The number declined by 50% under Bush's watch.

mnd5udowd1kjbezk9txm.png
 
Iran is terrorist pariah state that recently said the destruction of Israel is not negotiable. They are supplying arms to Hama's, Hezbollah, and many other terrorist groups. The Obama regime should assure Iran never gets the bomb!
 
I think most people do believe the goal should be preventing Iran or any other nation from getting nukes.

The ultimate goal should be the elimination of nukes altogether.

And in terms of Iran that should start with Israel.

It is Israeli posturing and threats driving Iran towards nukes.

Israel has had the bomb for 40+ years, Iran hasn't been threatened.

Iran's problem is they want to sponsor terrorists.
 
Iran is terrorist pariah state that recently said the destruction of Israel is not negotiable. They are supplying arms to Hama's, Hezbollah, and many other terrorist groups. The Obama regime should assure Iran never gets the bomb!

Let me guess, you are signing up for this war with Iran if it comes to that?

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I think most people do believe the goal should be preventing Iran or any other nation from getting nukes.

The ultimate goal should be the elimination of nukes altogether.

And in terms of Iran that should start with Israel.

It is Israeli posturing and threats driving Iran towards nukes.

Israel has had the bomb for 40+ years, Iran hasn't been threatened.

Iran's problem is they want to sponsor terrorists.

Would it be OK with you if Cuba gets the bomb?
 
These arguments about the US deciding which countries should be allowed the privilege of having nuclear weapons sound, to me, a lot like arguments about the US government deciding which people should be allowed the privilege of owning handguns.

What do you think about that comparison, Loren?

Each additional country that obtains nuclear weapons goes one step further in undermining nuclear non-proliferation efforts. The US and the world community has "decided" that no additional countries should be able to obtain them. The alternative is that everyone gets them (there are about 30 non-nuclear states that could obtain them quickly should they decide to focus their efforts). If you are concerned about such weapons being used in a conflict or getting into terrorist hands, then you should support the non-proliferation efforts.

That does appear to be the argument against handguns, except with individuals rather than countries.

Can I just check that when people say the US supports 'freedom', they don't really mean 'for other people'?

Do you think nothing should be done to to prevent the reversal of this trend?

Yes, I do. I just wish the US did, or that you did. What's needed is a clear acknowledgement of what the situation is. Some countries have nukes. They don't want other countries getting them, for the reasons you described. In asking other countries to do you the favour of not developing weapon you already have, there are some things that are helpful, such as supporting their defence in other ways, helping them economically, and acknowledging their strategic interests, even when they are rivals to your own. What is not helpful is invading them, supplying nukes to your friends in violation of the rules, refusing to limit the testing or development of nuclear weapons, encouraging others to attack them with chemical weapons, threatening to bomb them, aggressive espionage and cyber warfare attacks, and in general refusing to acknowledge that you're actually asking them to do something they are under no obligation whatsoever to give you.

The easiest way to spread nuclear weapons around the world is to aggressively threaten everyone who doesn't have them.

And that's the principal problem. I don't really see that Auxlus, and the US, actually believe in nuclear non-proliferation. They believe in rightness of maintaining US military dominance over countries they dislike. In the context of Iran, they sound sort of similar, since they both involve taking steps to ensure Iran doesn't develop nukes. But the conflict between the two positions is that, ultimately, one involves securing the active cooperation of Iran, while the other involves denying it sovereign rights as an independent entity.

So which is it? Are we concerned about nukes spreading in general, or is this about maintaining power over countries we dislike?
 
By signing the NNPT, Iran has already agreed not to develop nuclear weapons. (And the US has agreed to reduce its arsenal, which it has done, and may continue to do. The NNPT also commits nuclear armed nations not to use nukes on non-nuclear armed nations.)

I am wondering what provisions the NNPT makes for signatories who violate its terms.
 
By signing the NNPT, Iran has already agreed not to develop nuclear weapons. (And the US has agreed to reduce its arsenal, which it has done, and may continue to do. The NNPT also commits nuclear armed nations not to use nukes on non-nuclear armed nations.)

I am wondering what provisions the NNPT makes for signatories who violate its terms.

They round 'em up; put 'em in a field, and bomb the bastards.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMHDBL7CNA4[/YOUTUBE]
 
I understand the logic behind non-proliferation. I also understand how that will be seen as totally unfair and unreasonable by those excluded. Perhaps we could all take it more seriously if a great power like the USA actually took efforts to REDUCE its own arms as it goes around telling others they can't have them. The hypocrisy is staggering and you will just never get passed it.

They were being steadily reduced but the decline stopped under Obama. Gee, thanks Obama. Clinton wasn't much help either. The number declined by 50% under Bush's watch.

mnd5udowd1kjbezk9txm.png

I think that the lack of progress in reducing the number of nuclear weapons under Obama and Clinton is more of a "only Nixon could go to China" effect than any lack of desire on their part to reduce the weapons. If Obama reduced the number of nuclear weapons the Republicans would be all over him. A repeat of Kennedy's false missile gap.
 
By signing the NNPT, Iran has already agreed not to develop nuclear weapons. (And the US has agreed to reduce its arsenal, which it has done, and may continue to do. The NNPT also commits nuclear armed nations not to use nukes on non-nuclear armed nations.)

I am wondering what provisions the NNPT makes for signatories who violate its terms.

Well you're allowed to pull out. And it was Iran pulling out that started this whole mess.
 
I didn't know that the NPT required the USA to reduce its nuclear arsenal. Do Iranian weapons inspectors go in to make sure reduction deadlines are kept to?

I question if the numbers under Reagan were not inflated, and if the numbers today are not under reported.
 
By signing the NNPT, Iran has already agreed not to develop nuclear weapons. (And the US has agreed to reduce its arsenal, which it has done, and may continue to do. The NNPT also commits nuclear armed nations not to use nukes on non-nuclear armed nations.)

I am wondering what provisions the NNPT makes for signatories who violate its terms.

Well you're allowed to pull out. And it was Iran pulling out that started this whole mess.

You have a cite that Iran has pulled out of the NNPT?
 
I didn't know that the NPT required the USA to reduce its nuclear arsenal. Do Iranian weapons inspectors go in to make sure reduction deadlines are kept to?

"Article VI

Each of the Parties to the Treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control."

The various START and SALT and other acronym treaties fall under this article. I assume those treaties deal with an inspection regime, and either assign that role to the IAEA or to inspectors named by the negotiating parties. I doubt Iranian participation is anticipated (although, of course, you won't be seeing American inspectors at Iranian facilities either, unless they happen to be employees of the IAEA).

I do not, however, see anything concerning a commitment by the nuclear states not to use nuclear weapons against nonnuclear states. Maybe that's somewhere else, or maybe it's wishful thinking on my part...
 
American disarmament is mostly monitored by Russia. One example was that when I visited a deactivated nuclear missile silo, they explained that the silo doors were jambed partly shut, partly opened with a heavy poured concrete block that can be seen by Russia's satelites. If the block is ever removed, Russia can conclude that the silo is active again. I believe the UN also has a role.
 
By signing the NNPT, Iran has already agreed not to develop nuclear weapons. (And the US has agreed to reduce its arsenal, which it has done, and may continue to do. The NNPT also commits nuclear armed nations not to use nukes on non-nuclear armed nations.)

I am wondering what provisions the NNPT makes for signatories who violate its terms.

The carrot in the NPT is the use of peaceful technologies, that is nuclear power. The countries that adhere to the treaty can buy reactors and fuel to generate power.
 
I didn't know that the NPT required the USA to reduce its nuclear arsenal. Do Iranian weapons inspectors go in to make sure reduction deadlines are kept to?

I question if the numbers under Reagan were not inflated, and if the numbers today are not under reported.

My company employed a US army reserve intelligence officer who spoke both Russian and Ukrainian. He was constantly on active duty in the late 1980's and early 1990's on verification teams who went to Russia and the Ukraine to watch nuclear missiles being physically destroyed. The missiles were cut apart and left outdoors where reconnaissance satellites could see them. Silo doors were jammed part of the way opened so that the satellites could see that they were out of service.

It was the intent of these some times extreme measures to prevent any cheating on the terms of the disarmament treaties such as you are implying.
 
I didn't know that the NPT required the USA to reduce its nuclear arsenal. Do Iranian weapons inspectors go in to make sure reduction deadlines are kept to?

I question if the numbers under Reagan were not inflated, and if the numbers today are not under reported.

My company employed a US army reserve intelligence officer who spoke both Russian and Ukrainian. He was constantly on active duty in the late 1980's and early 1990's on verification teams who went to Russia and the Ukraine to watch nuclear missiles being physically destroyed. The missiles were cut apart and left outdoors where reconnaissance satellites could see them. Silo doors were jammed part of the way opened so that the satellites could see that they were out of service.

It was the intent of these some times extreme measures to prevent any cheating on the terms of the disarmament treaties such as you are implying.

But what sort of verification do we have with Iran?
 
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