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Is a Hidden God the Same as No God?

What would it even mean to "worship" such a "God"?
To seek to understand all structure that may be found within reality, and understand such things through their expressions?

To attempt to encode true language about the thing that is nature?

So, doing science and using reason and logic amid observations.
 
I think that oftentimes, there is a mind virus involved, a big fat gross case of "organized religion", but conspiracy theorists can easily be atheists, as can incels.

Nah. I reject the mind virus argument and substitute my own! 🤣
What appears organized, only reflects the ubiquity of the human tendency to cling to what we think we know. Nobody is immune, but at least scientific methodology provides a means of minimizing its effects, whereas religion amplifies it.
 
Man has always found patterns, balances, and intricate mechanisms in nature -- and then assumed there must be agency behind them. But we now understand what causes eclipses, moon phases, comets, planetary orbits, rainbows, salt crystals, parallel ripples in seabed sand, the Northern Lights, and wonders of nature like the 1931 version of Greta Garbo. No one today would have to create a designer who, with an impulse of creation, made those things appear. If you understand moon phases, you'd laugh at a supernatural explanation. (I could almost see a religion based on Garbo, tho'.) Yet the pre-scientific faiths persist, because the story elements are compelling. (Unless you focus on the crazy parts, as I do.) There's going to be a demand for 'em for generations to come, but perhaps a tapering-off demand.
 
Define atheist? I list the personality traits...
Personality traits have nothing to do with it.
Would someone with better language skills than I, please explain these terms to SIB:

Theist =
Atheist =
Gnostic =
Agnostic =

SIB, after you have digested these terms, please plot yourself on the following graph. then update your profile.
Your comments clearly show you to be a believer. That's OK. Believers can post here. But I hate liars.

Agnostic v Gnostic v Atheist v Theist.png
 
How would an atheist with those traits react when challenged?
We are challenged every single day. We are surrounded by brainwashed sheep. That is why we act so angry. (we don't start angry)
You would feel the same if you were a christian living in an is-lame-ick country.

I am simple minded, I don't understand blind faith.
That's ironic. You keep espousing your blind faith.

The one Hallmark of the archetype of "believer" is that it almost universally opens them up to some form of external control.
That is the purpose of religion. The first four 'commandments' are about loyalty/obedience to the cult.
 
You're missing gnostic Agnostic: someone who knows that we cannot know whether a god exists.
 
The one Hallmark of the archetype of "believer" is that it almost universally opens them up to some form of external control.
That is the purpose of religion. The first four 'commandments' are about loyalty/obedience to the cult.
I would disagree. That is A purpose of religion. Often enough it is about teaching good reasons for self-discipline, and holding those solid against the ravages of time.

Education used to be done in a temple and what you got at a temple was an education (or a sexually transmitted disease, or both).

Today, academia has supplanted the church as a source of knowledge, and of far better knowledge based on sounder principles, but we operate much with the same decorum and structures of discussion, debate, and defense of thesis in new ways as churches did in the old ways.
 
Often enough it is about teaching good reasons for self-discipline,
Under threat of eternal damnation? Sorry, It's always about control. External-discipline. I practice self-discipline without a god looking over my shoulder. What your cult teaches is that you are too weak to control yourself, you need the cult to control you. (with god's help)
 
Often enough it is about teaching good reasons for self-discipline,
Under threat of eternal damnation? Sorry, It's always about control. External-discipline. I practice self-discipline without a god looking over my shoulder. What your cult teaches is that you are too weak to control yourself, you need the cult to control you. (with god's help)
The threat of eternal damnation came later, I think?

The religion was, for many, a handy tool to keep the cultural philosophy alive, and some bad actors parasitized the phenomena since it had no resistance to bad action.

It was like proto-academia with a parasite vulnerability.
 
Most Christians I know don't focus on the hell part. They have a fuzzy feel-good sense of being in a club that really pays benefits to members. If they're old enough to have been through multiple deaths in their families, they believe there will be some big reunion in the next life, and that their loved ones are in heaven, waiting for them. The ones who are big on the hell teachings tend to be extremist on all the teachings: literalism, Biblical morality point for point, the need for a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ", whatever the hell that really means. Those are also the folks who would hardly appreciate my humor, so I don't discuss faith with them, and I may have a faulty sense of their priorities. In today's America, they also skew toward Trumpism, one additional and huge reason I don't have much to say to them. Dogs? Sure. Favorite coffee shop? Let's talk. Trump or Jesus? No, dawg. I'm sure we'd eye each other like we were encountering aliens.
And yes, a hidden god either is no god or just as well might be nonexistent. I'm going with no god.
 
The threat of eternal damnation came later, I think?
Irrelevant.
The current state is that the christian cult is running a heaven/hell protection racket. Not serving humanity.
The current state of the Christian cult does not speak to "religion" as a whole, either today OR throughout history.

It did and still does have function in society even if that function is now so overrun with parasites it is in many places worse than the disease of ignorance that it first helped treat.
 
... wonders of nature like the 1931 version of Greta Garbo. ... (I could almost see a religion based on Garbo, tho'.)

We may need to revoke my atheist card if goddess worship is disallowed. But I'm afraid we may have another religious war on our hands. I am a devout Marilynist.

Googling "Goddess Alexandra Snow" will reveal another opportunity for goddess worship. But I'm afraid Goddess Snow -- despite her magnificence -- is a vengeful deity, attracting followers in need of punishment.
 
Most Christians I know don't focus on the hell part. They have a fuzzy feel-good sense of being in a club that really pays benefits to members. If they're old enough to have been through multiple deaths in their families, they believe there will be some big reunion in the next life, and that their loved ones are in heaven, waiting for them. The ones who are big on the hell teachings tend to be extremist on all the teachings: literalism, Biblical morality point for point, the need for a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ", whatever the hell that really means. Those are also the folks who would hardly appreciate my humor, so I don't discuss faith with them, and I may have a faulty sense of their priorities. In today's America, they also skew toward Trumpism, one additional and huge reason I don't have much to say to them. Dogs? Sure. Favorite coffee shop? Let's talk. Trump or Jesus? No, dawg. I'm sure we'd eye each other like we were encountering aliens.
And yes, a hidden god either is no god or just as well might be nonexistent. I'm going with no god.
I remember a conversation with my parents. I told them they'd be in heaven and I'd be in hell because I didn't think their religion was true. They immediately shot back "It doesn't work like that. You will be in heaven too." And that's the thing about "Christian," It means whatever the person wants it to mean. There aren't any hard and fast rules, just a bunch of feelings about this and that, including what god is. It's more a free club membership than anything else and not a meaningful identity when you actually start talking about how things work in the club.
 
I remember a conversation with my parents. I told them they'd be in heaven and I'd be in hell because I didn't think their religion was true. They immediately shot back "It doesn't work like that. You will be in heaven too." And that's the thing about "Christian," It means whatever the person wants it to mean. There aren't any hard and fast rules, just a bunch of feelings about this and that, including what god is. It's more a free club membership than anything else and not a meaningful identity when you actually start talking about how things work in the club.

Yes. Most Eastern religions emphasize proper deeds and appropriate thoughts and feelings in THIS world. Judaism seems to emphasize suffering(!?). Islam is about charity and humility; indeed the very word "Islam" translates as "submission to God."

But Christianity, at least as practiced among the idiotic "evangelists" of post-rational America, features none of this. Instead it's all about what Jesus can do for ME. It is no surprise that the one sentence that has been translated into more languages than any other sentence in all the world is
l'Évangile selon Jean 3:16 said:
Car Dieu a tant aimé le monde qu'il a donné son Fils unique, afin que quiconque croit en lui ne périsse point, mais qu'il ait la vie éternelle.
(I like to recite this "most important sentence" in French -- practice my subjunctive.)

Well, thanks very big, Jesus dude! "Vie éternelle", hunh? That may work if you keep me supplied with plenty of Viagra.
 
Often enough it is about teaching good reasons for self-discipline,
Under threat of eternal damnation? Sorry, It's always about control.

Self control.
Voluntary self control.
The choice is always yours.

Moreover, you're not presented with a choice to behave morally or not. You're presented with a choice to live a happy life living happily with your fellow humans.

Its when you reject that choice that words like sin and disobedience arise.

External-discipline. I practice self-discipline without a god looking over my shoulder.

Thats what we are supposed to do.
Live moral lives because it's the best thing to do. Yes, God wants us to. But more importantly He wants us to want to do so.

What your cult teaches is that you are too weak to control yourself, you need the cult to control you. (with god's help)

My 'cult' doesn't teach that.
 
Voluntary self control
Volunteer to control yourself or else the fascist Christian government will murder you and claim that even death will not be a reprieve from the torture? That "voluntary"?

Or maybe the "voluntary" exposure some kid got to asbestos because of baby powder. Just shouldn't have chosen to shit himself, right?
 
I list the personality traits of a fundy think type Christian. What would an atheist sound like with those personality traits?
Hmmm. IMHO that’s not a valid question. I think those personality traits are largely a result of Xtian indoctrination.
IOW, they’d sound like a fundy. If someone was raised in a strict atheist environment (I can’t even picture that) then your question might have relevance. I have never even heard of a militantly enforced atheist family environment, but I’ve met lotsa people who grew up in strict religious environments.
Kids in religious family are sent to their rooms, grounded or otherwise punished for taking god’s name in vain, but I never heard of any atheist kids being punished for mentioning god in a way that could imply that gods are real.
Except they aren't.

They're the combination of some archetype when loaded with Christianity, but as per SIB's observation, I see the same thing from atheists raised as atheists, it just manifests in different ways.

I think that oftentimes, there is a mind virus involved, a big fat gross case of "organized religion", but conspiracy theorists can easily be atheists, as can incels.

The one Hallmark of the archetype of "believer" is that it almost universally opens them up to some form of external control.

I mean the word virus ... as a metaphor ... OK. I call them strings. Like a subroutine.

Atheist/theist are human, thus subject to all the human traits we see. To me, "We have the real truth" is a big one. The problem in both groups is that some have been mislead into thinking "for team unity, don't question ourselves". Toss in the emotional connection to anti-religion/my religion only and even, otherwise stable people, tend to go off the rails a bit. Much like a phobia, like Arachnophobia.

Spiders are not all bad. Watch a person with this phobia talk about spiders. They may be able to control themselves most of the time. Talk rationally but learn towards extermination. But every so often, usually when things get hot, they show true intentions.

"Archetype of believer" opens them up to to universal control. I think if we sat down and drew this up we would see this fail more often than not. For example, I am a believer in the scientific method. I guess I am open to control in that i somebody said "we need more data." I would would see if that is true or not true. So, in a way, they controlled me I guess.

List the types of personalities that people in the people business describe. Clusters as an example, if they are still relevant that is. Also include what we would call normal crazy. Predict how a theist/atheist would sound when challenged with these personality traits.

Do the predictions match what we see?

I think if we stood far enough away from (just in ear shot) fundamental atheist they would sound a lot like fundamental theists. Much like if we watched two groups of fans and a football game. Toss in the internet where abused people are striking back (I hate saying that-it sounds so bad-but its its a reality), Anti-religion/my religion only team unity, and foreign influences are involved, well, we see what we see.

The red flags: "Don't question other atheists/theist.", "we are not talking about that (usually like it to carefully worded titles), "We should avoid discussing it like that, and "Some non-believers/believers will take that and ..." insert whatever fear we have.

Otherwise this is easy. A belief in "something more" is a very rational belief. And when we have people that reply of "You're a wanna be believer" shows us that this personality set is in the game for other reasons than describing how the universe works to the best of our ability. I saw, and now use, the term fundamental atheist. If we have a visceral reaction to the statement of "cluster-B atheist mite get very defensive and start "dehumanizing" you.", well, what should I think?
 
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Atheist/theist are human, thus subject to all the human traits we see. To me, "We have the real truth" is a big one.
For sure.

There are plenty of atheists who did not arrive at their atheism rationally - they are right in their assessment of the number of gods being zero for the wrong reasons. It's literally more good luck than good judgement.

Humans are generally pretty bad at thinking stuff through.

The red flags: "Don't question other atheists/theist.", "we are not talking about that (usually like it to carefully worded titles), "We should avoid discussing it like that, and "Some non-believers/believers will take that and ..." insert whatever fear we have.
Yup, those are all indications that people are being more political than rational. I will certainly not resile from questioning other atheists if they make bad arguments. Certainly I won't chastise anyone else for doing so.

Atheism, like any conclusion about reality, is as rational as its best arguments though. The existence of irrational atheists doesn't render atheism irrational.
 
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