Is Crypto dying or just dropping for the moment?

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Yet again people are predicting the death of cryptocurrency. Remember, these doomsayers are absolutely correct and you must sell off at a loss while the rich are buying them up.

 

[Rhea]

The value of a bitcoin is so high, I assume you can own partial shares of one? Like a penny? Like a peta-penny?

 

[Jayjay]

The value of a bitcoin is so high, I assume you can own partial shares of one? Like a penny? Like a peta-penny?

They're just decimal numbers. Smallest amount is 100 millionth of a bitcoin, called "satoshi". It's value now would be less than 0.04 cents. But if the tea leaves and chicken entrails are right, bitcoin could be so valuable in the future that even satoshis become impractically pricy.

 

[Swammerdami]

There's a lot of confusion in this thread. For starters, Bubble / Pyramid / Ponzi are different things, though related. People go to prison for the lies that are fundamental to Ponzi schemes. Has anyone been convicted of felony in connection with the Amway Pyramid? Bubbles are just exuberance! ("Irrational exuberance" perhaps, but the whole F**k*** world is irrational by now, anyway.)

And I was astounded to read Jarhyn's comparison of the cost of rifle bullets for armored vans with Bitcoin mining costs. I'm sure Jarhyn realizes that most dollars are stored and transacted very cheaply as tiny packets of electrons, but his post doesn't give that impression.

I keep clicking the thread to find out whether I should buy Ethereum — half a trillion dollars market cap now?!!???!!!! How does its electricity consumption compare with BitCoin's? (I could try to Google this myself, but I already have 43 Google tabs open — I'm trying to cut down!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

One matter I can help out on:

The value of a bitcoin is so high, I assume you can own partial shares of one? Like a penny? Like a peta-penny?

I've got an interesting(?) summary of metric prefixes; for three Pleases and an Attaboy I may post it. Meanwhile I'm afraid Rhea has inverted an exponent's sign bit! A peta-penny, far from being a miniscule measure of money, is a large one. Assuming penny means 1/100 of a U.S.dollar (rather than its long-ago denotation of one pennyweight of sterling silver), then a peta-penny. is $10,000,000,000,000.

Hmmm. I started the arithmetic thinking a peta-penny was a lot of money, but now see that at $10 trillion it's somewhat less than the size of the recent Trump-GOP giveaway to the super-rich.

 

[Jarhyn]

There's a lot of confusion in this thread. For starters, Bubble / Pyramid / Ponzi are different things, though related. People go to prison for the lies that are fundamental to Ponzi schemes. Has anyone been convicted of felony in connection with the Amway Pyramid? Bubbles are just exuberance! ("Irrational exuberance" perhaps, but the whole F**k*** world is irrational by now, anyway.)

And I was astounded to read Jarhyn's comparison of the cost of rifle bullets for armored vans with Bitcoin mining costs. I'm sure Jarhyn realizes that most dollars are stored and transacted very cheaply as tiny packets of electrons, but his post doesn't give that impression.

I keep clicking the thread to find out whether I should buy Ethereum — half a trillion dollars market cap now?!!???!!!! How does its electricity consumption compare with BitCoin's? (I could try to Google this myself, but I already have 43 Google tabs open — I'm trying to cut down!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

One matter I can help out on:

The value of a bitcoin is so high, I assume you can own partial shares of one? Like a penny? Like a peta-penny?

I've got an interesting(?) summary of metric prefixes; for three Pleases and an Attaboy I may post it. Meanwhile I'm afraid Rhea has inverted an exponent's sign bit! A peta-penny, far from being a miniscule measure of money, is a large one. Assuming penny means 1/100 of a U.S.dollar (rather than its long-ago denotation of one pennyweight of sterling silver), then a peta-penny. is $10,000,000,000,000.

Hmmm. I started the arithmetic thinking a peta-penny was a lot of money, but now see that at $10 trillion it's somewhat less than the size of the recent Trump-GOP giveaway to the super-rich.

All cryptocurrencies are transacted as tiny packets of electrons, and such packets that don't require any special hardware beyond a device with a wifi adapter. With Proof of Stake, that's the end of the road. Transaction happens, people acknowledge that it happened, money is spent.

All Proof of Stake Crypto is lighter, though by likely less than a half an order of magnitude by my estimation, than the resource cost even of a debit card transaction. So why would I care about that side of the comparison? All that remains is the margin of the segment that is actually significantly different, which is cash.

 

[barbos]

All Proof of Stake Crypto is lighter, though by likely less than a half an order of magnitude by my estimation, than the resource cost even of a debit card transaction.

I would like to see a proof of that. As far as I understand, it basically lets you "mine" more if you already have more. Ordinary transaction have the same cost as other cryptocurrencies because security is based on large number (effectively all) servers confirming each other.

 

[Jarhyn]

All Proof of Stake Crypto is lighter, though by likely less than a half an order of magnitude by my estimation, than the resource cost even of a debit card transaction.

I would like to see a proof of that. As far as I understand, it basically lets you "mine" more if you already have more. Ordinary transaction have the same cost as other cryptocurrencies because security is based on large number (effectively all) servers confirming each other.

All servers generally keep a log of transactions. This even happens with banks, and especially with banks.

Do you discount all the infrastructure to manufacture, distribute, maintain, and regulate fraud protection? Massive amounts of effort, whole industries have spun out of fraud protection. More individual human beings work for that industry, and the banking industry, than I care to think about. Each one of those people. All the food that is required for them to do that job, all the hours they spend, that's also an opportunity cost of dollars.

It's a LOT harder to have your crypto wallet emptied., And it's not as if banking doesn't have massive individual inefficiencies.

 

[funinspace]

The value of a bitcoin is so high, I assume you can own partial shares of one? Like a penny? Like a peta-penny?

Don't know about fractional ownership directly, but one can certainly do it via a fund. GBTC (bitcoin) and ETH (ethereum) trade at roughly $32 and $25 (as of 5/19)a share via any trading platform. They come with a higher cost than owning directly, but are very simple compared to crypto wallets, security needs, passwords, et.al. Eventually, there will be cleaner ETF's, but so far the regulators haven't approved any in the US (Canada has).

 

[barbos]

All Proof of Stake Crypto is lighter, though by likely less than a half an order of magnitude by my estimation, than the resource cost even of a debit card transaction.

I would like to see a proof of that. As far as I understand, it basically lets you "mine" more if you already have more. Ordinary transaction have the same cost as other cryptocurrencies because security is based on large number (effectively all) servers confirming each other.

All servers generally keep a log of transactions. This even happens with banks, and especially with banks.

Do you discount all the infrastructure to manufacture, distribute, maintain, and regulate fraud protection? Massive amounts of effort, whole industries have spun out of fraud protection. More individual human beings work for that industry, and the banking industry, than I care to think about. Each one of those people. All the food that is required for them to do that job, all the hours they spend, that's also an opportunity cost of dollars.

It's a LOT harder to have your crypto wallet emptied., And it's not as if banking doesn't have massive individual inefficiencies.

Bitcoin cost of transaction is orders and orders of magnitude higher than ordinary banking.

 

[Jarhyn]

All servers generally keep a log of transactions. This even happens with banks, and especially with banks.

Do you discount all the infrastructure to manufacture, distribute, maintain, and regulate fraud protection? Massive amounts of effort, whole industries have spun out of fraud protection. More individual human beings work for that industry, and the banking industry, than I care to think about. Each one of those people. All the food that is required for them to do that job, all the hours they spend, that's also an opportunity cost of dollars.

It's a LOT harder to have your crypto wallet emptied., And it's not as if banking doesn't have massive individual inefficiencies.

Bitcoin cost of transaction is orders and orders of magnitude higher than ordinary banking.

See, that's your problem: Bitcoin. You changed the subject, and moved the goalposts.

We are talking about Proof of Stake not Proof of work. Or at least I am. If you can't speak to that, quit speaking to my posts, please.

 

[barbos]

All servers generally keep a log of transactions. This even happens with banks, and especially with banks.

Do you discount all the infrastructure to manufacture, distribute, maintain, and regulate fraud protection? Massive amounts of effort, whole industries have spun out of fraud protection. More individual human beings work for that industry, and the banking industry, than I care to think about. Each one of those people. All the food that is required for them to do that job, all the hours they spend, that's also an opportunity cost of dollars.

It's a LOT harder to have your crypto wallet emptied., And it's not as if banking doesn't have massive individual inefficiencies.

Bitcoin cost of transaction is orders and orders of magnitude higher than ordinary banking.

See, that's your problem: Bitcoin. You changed the subject, and moved the goalposts.

We are talking about Proof of Stake not Proof of work. Or at least I am. If you can't speak to that, quit speaking to my posts, please.

There are currently no cryptocurrency using Proof of Stake. And I doubt that situation would be fundamentally different there.
Googling gives it costs $10 minimum to put average 220 byte long transaction into a blockchain.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitc...e Transaction Fee is,212.1% from one year ago.

Average is around $20, or about 100kwh of mining. You buy some shit and pay with bitcoins and it cause some chinese farm to convert 100kwh of coal electricity into heat.

 

[Jarhyn]

See, that's your problem: Bitcoin. You changed the subject, and moved the goalposts.

We are talking about Proof of Stake not Proof of work. Or at least I am. If you can't speak to that, quit speaking to my posts, please.

There are currently no cryptocurrency using Proof of Stake. And I doubt that situation would be fundamentally different there.
Googling gives it costs $10 minimum to put average 220 byte long transaction into a blockchain.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitc...e Transaction Fee is,212.1% from one year ago.

Average is around $20, or about 100kwh of mining. You buy some shit and pay with bitcoins and it cause some chinese farm to convert 100kwh of coal electricity into heat.

So, you are going to speak in bad faith across me then?

I am not going to speak to Bitcoin. It has already been discussed and accepted that there is nothing redeeming about it other than the technologies it spawned, but which it itself is not.

You are screeching into the void and if you keep it up, I'm just going to put you on ignore for a while.

Either speak to "cryptocurrency" or Proof of Stake when you make claims against my posts, or speak not at all.

 

[barbos]

See, that's your problem: Bitcoin. You changed the subject, and moved the goalposts.

We are talking about Proof of Stake not Proof of work. Or at least I am. If you can't speak to that, quit speaking to my posts, please.

There are currently no cryptocurrency using Proof of Stake. And I doubt that situation would be fundamentally different there.
Googling gives it costs $10 minimum to put average 220 byte long transaction into a blockchain.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitc...e Transaction Fee is,212.1% from one year ago.

Average is around $20, or about 100kwh of mining. You buy some shit and pay with bitcoins and it cause some chinese farm to convert 100kwh of coal electricity into heat.

So, you are going to speak in bad faith across me then?

I am not going to speak to Bitcoin. It has already been discussed and accepted that there is nothing redeeming about it other than the technologies it spawned, but which it itself is not.

You are screeching into the void and if you keep it up, I'm just going to put you on ignore for a while.

Either speak to "cryptocurrency" or Proof of Stake when you make claims against my posts, or speak not at all.

It's not me, it's YOU.

The Proof of Stake (PoS) concept states that a person can mine or validate block transactions according to how many coins they hold. This means that the more coins owned by a miner, the more mining power they have

Even if you reduce energy requirements by couple of orders of magnitude it would still be horrible.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So cryptos are about back level to where they were 48 hours ago.

 

[Jarhyn]

Even if you reduce energy requirements by couple of orders of magnitude it would still be horrible.

you have not defended this position.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ahh, I see my error. bibly is talking about the production of money. Printing process only? And, not the distribution & the supporting infrastructure. I was also including other elements such as the means (like mining coal) to earn the ends (currency) which wouldn't exclude bitcoin if it became widely used. I get it now.

Electronic money cost virtually nothing. Visa/Mastercard wants you to believe otherwise of course.

The costs of Visa/Mastercard aren't in the transactions themselves, but all the supporting infrastructure and the fraud losses etc.

 

[Jarhyn]

Ahh, I see my error. bibly is talking about the production of money. Printing process only? And, not the distribution & the supporting infrastructure. I was also including other elements such as the means (like mining coal) to earn the ends (currency) which wouldn't exclude bitcoin if it became widely used. I get it now.

Electronic money cost virtually nothing. Visa/Mastercard wants you to believe otherwise of course.

The costs of Visa/Mastercard aren't in the transactions themselves, but all the supporting infrastructure and the fraud losses etc.

Exactly. You can't rob a crypto wallet. You can ostensibly scam one if the parties are too dumb to involve a multisig, but then that's their own dumbass fault.

 

[Swammerdami]

Even if you reduce energy requirements by couple of orders of magnitude it would still be horrible.

you have not defended this position.

If I may butt in, IIUC the sub-debate is about Bitc Mining being a thumb in-your-eye directed against those concerned with global heating. Was someone factoring costs of armored cars and their munitions? (associated with transporting banknotes like USD.)

But is cash not obsolescent in this Brave New World (except among drug dealers and other criminals)? Is crypto-farming getting bigger, or being reduced? Soon may it not hit 1% of global electricity use? Those who don't think this is a lot aren't good with numbers. Those who want to contrast this with the firearms and ammunition needed to let Americans feel safe will claim ... what? That the tens of billions of dollars America spends on arming itself, is no longer needed once secure, password-driven block-chain transactions replace bearer paper money?

TL; DR: We shall assume that anyone who was contrasting the ammunition needs of scared Americans with crypto- electricity waste was making a joke, rather than attempting reality-based debate.

Meanwhile: Did they ever figure out who Whats-his-name is? How many Bitcoins does Mr. BitCoin have?

 

[bilby]

The costs of Visa/Mastercard aren't in the transactions themselves, but all the supporting infrastructure and the fraud losses etc.

Exactly. You can't rob a crypto wallet. You can ostensibly scam one if the parties are too dumb to involve a multisig, but then that's their own dumbass fault.

No, it really isn't.

Fraud is never the fault of the victim, no matter how naïve their actions might have been.

Being stupid isn't a crime, nor is it a choice. Stupid people deserve the protection of their society against the criminals who would seek to exploit them. That's particularly true of novel or complex situations where the victim didn't grow up with any understanding of the risks.

 

[barbos]

Ahh, I see my error. bibly is talking about the production of money. Printing process only? And, not the distribution & the supporting infrastructure. I was also including other elements such as the means (like mining coal) to earn the ends (currency) which wouldn't exclude bitcoin if it became widely used. I get it now.

Electronic money cost virtually nothing. Visa/Mastercard wants you to believe otherwise of course.

The costs of Visa/Mastercard aren't in the transactions themselves, but all the supporting infrastructure and the fraud losses etc.

Crypto have infrastructure too and fraud,crime with losses with theft. In fact it promotes new types of crime by design. And it's part of the reason I am against it.