• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Is Crypto dying or just dropping for the moment?

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,332
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
That is why the economy as it is is based on growth. Invest today expecting in the future to get back your investment plus more than inflation.

It is whay people with money do not stuff money in a matress or just leave it in the bank.

One claimed benefit of crypto was getting rid of currency trading. In a broad sense it is not about corruption or incompetence, it is more about hte complexity of modern goabal economics and free trade and nationalism. China would never agree to any glaobal currency.

How that would be manged across nations would be an impossible political mess. It could even make corruption worse. Brexit in part was about the Brits having their own currency.

The idea of fairness is a myth especially on a global scale. The fact that the system as it is works at all most of the time is a miracle.

The free markey global sustem is not about fairness. It is about aggressive competition with winners and loosers.

Unlie the USA te Chinese govt is behind major Chinese busness fosterng theft of intectual property.They can keep l;abor wages atrficialy low. That certainly is not fair as far as we see it.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,790
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
Brexit in part was about the Brits having their own currency.
Only insofar as that the utterly nonsensical and counterfactual claim that they might not be allowed to was floated by the factually averse side of the debate. The UK had an absolute and ironclad opt-out from the euro, as a founding member of the EU; They could never have been forced to give up the Pound Sterling.

However, should they ever wish to rejoin the EU, they would now have to do so as a new applicant, and would not have that special status. Leaving the EU has actually made it more plausible that the UK might have to abandon her own currency at some future date, as one of the requirements to rejoin.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
35,727
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,577
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Yeah, but rvonse is certain that while economically things are completely opposite what he thinks it is, it just have to get there because...
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
20,068
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
Take away the ability to enslave the population paying taxes (which is their labor) in the dollar currency....and there would be a dollar crises tomorrow.
Oh really?
What happens to the dollar and why?
Is 7-11 going to accept bitcoin but not dollars the next day? When the gov stops printing and lending dollars are dollars going to get less, or more valuable?
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,332
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
If we really want true justice we can do away with currency and just make everything free, right?

If you get rid of currency there is still economics.

What and how much gets produced
Who gets what and how much
Who does what and how much does a person get, or does everybody get exactly the same

You can not discuss currency outside of the free market system and how goods, devices, and labor are valued in terms of a currency. Supply and demand.

The value of currency itself floats. A problem we have had with China is they have not in the past allowed its currency to float which can make cost of manufacturing artificiality low. They can fix wages and cost of materials.

I am no expert, but global economics on the scale of today is not trivial and changes can have serious unintended consequnces. Trump's China tariffs for example harmed American farmers more than it did anything to China.

I do not see how going to crypto changes anything. In most systems a crypto currency woud have to be able to float with economic conditions. I think a gloabl currncy with a fixed value woud be a problem.

If each country went crypto as a standard equivalent to paper money then nothing chnanges.
 

Jayjay

Contributor
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
5,690
Location
Finland
Basic Beliefs
An accurate worldview or philosophy
I do not see how going to crypto changes anything. In most systems a crypto currency woud have to be able to float with economic conditions. I think a gloabl currncy with a fixed value woud be a problem.

If each country went crypto as a standard equivalent to paper money then nothing chnanges.
That's a very good point.

The Eurozone is already having problems with less competitive member states like Greeze being sucked dry because euro is too strong for their export industries, while countries like Germany benefit. As do EU states that kept their own currency, like Sweden or Poland. A global currency, digital or not, would have the same problems.
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,243
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
The value of currency itself floats.
Not sure if you mean this is how it is today or if you mean this is how it should be. If you mean this is how it is today, I agree with you. But if you mean this is in anyway desirable, I very much disagree. One of the biggest goals of a currency is stability. In the perfect economic world, the global reserve currency would never inflate or deflate and it would always remain perfectly stable. And in the beginnings of the UK reserve currency and US reserve currency that was indeed the case. Business producers and consumers alike would always know what the paper in their pocket was worth and they could accurately expect what their currency savings would purchase in the future. Such a perfectly stable currency greatly reducing pricing errors and mal-investments that we routinely see today in the energy, housing, and auto markets.
 
Last edited:

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,790
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
The value of currency itself floats.
Not sure if you mean this is how it is today or if you mean this is how it should be. If you mean this is how it is today, I agree with you. But if you mean this is in anyway desirable, I very much disagree. One of the biggest goals of a currency is stability. In the perfect economic world, the global reserve currency would never inflate or deflate and it would always remain perfectly stable. And in the beginnings of the UK reserve currency and US reserve currency this was indeed the case. Business producers and consumers alike would always know what the paper in their pocket was worth and they would count on what their savings would buy exactly that value in the future. Such a perfectly stable currency would greatly reduce pricing errors and mal-investments that we routinely see today in the energy, housing, and auto markets.
In the perfect economic world, there would always be a small amount of inflation, to reflect the fact that any sane person would rather have $20 today than $20 next week.
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,243
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
Yeah, but rvonse is certain that while economically things are completely opposite what he thinks it is, it just have to get there because...
It certainly isn't just me. There were many others looking at the same concerns who founded bitcoin as the solution.
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,243
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
If we really want true justice we can do away with currency and just make everything free, right?

If you get rid of currency there is still economics.

What and how much gets produced
Who gets what and how much
Who does what and how much does a person get, or does everybody get exactly the same

You can not discuss currency outside of the free market system and how goods, devices, and labor are valued in terms of a currency. Supply and demand.

The value of currency itself floats. A problem we have had with China is they have not in the past allowed its currency to float which can make cost of manufacturing artificiality low. They can fix wages and cost of materials.

I am no expert, but global economics on the scale of today is not trivial and changes can have serious unintended consequnces. Trump's China tariffs for example harmed American farmers more than it did anything to China.

I do not see how going to crypto changes anything. In most systems a crypto currency woud have to be able to float with economic conditions. I think a gloabl currncy with a fixed value woud be a problem.

If each country went crypto as a standard equivalent to paper money then nothing chnanges.
Just because it never has been done does not necessarily mean a better global financial system is not possible.
 

RVonse

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
2,243
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
that people in the US are living in the matrx
The value of currency itself floats.
Not sure if you mean this is how it is today or if you mean this is how it should be. If you mean this is how it is today, I agree with you. But if you mean this is in anyway desirable, I very much disagree. One of the biggest goals of a currency is stability. In the perfect economic world, the global reserve currency would never inflate or deflate and it would always remain perfectly stable. And in the beginnings of the UK reserve currency and US reserve currency this was indeed the case. Business producers and consumers alike would always know what the paper in their pocket was worth and they would count on what their savings would buy exactly that value in the future. Such a perfectly stable currency would greatly reduce pricing errors and mal-investments that we routinely see today in the energy, housing, and auto markets.
In the perfect economic world, there would always be a small amount of inflation, to reflect the fact that any sane person would rather have $20 today than $20 next week.
First you have to have a dead stable unit of exchange. After that you can talk about setting your interest rate.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,577
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Yeah, but rvonse is certain that while economically things are completely opposite what he thinks it is, it just have to get there because...
It certainly isn't just me. There were many others looking at the same concerns who founded bitcoin as the solution.
Bitcoin is rife with inflation and deflation. It is utterly useless as a currency! It continues to exhibit this wild behavior (mainly because it has no basis for value at all), and you keep warning us about the dollar (which hasn't dropped in value by 50% over the last few months, nor gone up wickedly by 50% in a period of a month). Money doesn't work well when it can be worth 1.5x in a month.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,053
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
Yeah, but rvonse is certain that while economically things are completely opposite what he thinks it is, it just have to get there because...
It certainly isn't just me. There were many others looking at the same concerns who founded bitcoin as the solution.
Bitcoin is rife with inflation and deflation. It is utterly useless as a currency! It continues to exhibit this wild behavior (mainly because it has no basis for value at all), and you keep warning us about the dollar (which hasn't dropped in value by 50% over the last few months, nor gone up wickedly by 50% in a period of a month). Money doesn't work well when it can be worth 1.5x in a month.
Honestly these days anyone using digital currency tries to spend as little time on Bitcoin as they can possibly manage.

There are even high-throughput automated channels for conversion now called "atomic swaps".
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,790
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
The value of currency itself floats.
Not sure if you mean this is how it is today or if you mean this is how it should be. If you mean this is how it is today, I agree with you. But if you mean this is in anyway desirable, I very much disagree. One of the biggest goals of a currency is stability. In the perfect economic world, the global reserve currency would never inflate or deflate and it would always remain perfectly stable. And in the beginnings of the UK reserve currency and US reserve currency this was indeed the case. Business producers and consumers alike would always know what the paper in their pocket was worth and they would count on what their savings would buy exactly that value in the future. Such a perfectly stable currency would greatly reduce pricing errors and mal-investments that we routinely see today in the energy, housing, and auto markets.
In the perfect economic world, there would always be a small amount of inflation, to reflect the fact that any sane person would rather have $20 today than $20 next week.
First you have to have a dead stable unit of exchange. After that you can talk about setting your interest rate.
I didn't say a word about interest rates. A dead stable currency implies that $20 today is exactly as valuable as $20 next week, or next year.

But everyone values money today over money later. So $20 next week is worth less than $20 today, unless your money continually increases in value.

Therefore (ceteris paribus) you can only have a stable currency if you also have deflation.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,332
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
If we really want true justice we can do away with currency and just make everything free, right?

If you get rid of currency there is still economics.

What and how much gets produced
Who gets what and how much
Who does what and how much does a person get, or does everybody get exactly the same

You can not discuss currency outside of the free market system and how goods, devices, and labor are valued in terms of a currency. Supply and demand.

The value of currency itself floats. A problem we have had with China is they have not in the past allowed its currency to float which can make cost of manufacturing artificiality low. They can fix wages and cost of materials.

I am no expert, but global economics on the scale of today is not trivial and changes can have serious unintended consequnces. Trump's China tariffs for example harmed American farmers more than it did anything to China.

I do not see how going to crypto changes anything. In most systems a crypto currency woud have to be able to float with economic conditions. I think a gloabl currncy with a fixed value woud be a problem.

If each country went crypto as a standard equivalent to paper money then nothing chnanges.
Just because it never has been done does not necessarily mean a better global financial system is not possible.
Of course but crypto currency does nothing. The global economic system as we have it today was not designed, it evolved over time. It is what it is because it works reasonably well most of the time.

Chinese and Russian communism were hell bent on detroyng the western system. China rebuilt it self by in the end by participating in it.

If anybody has an idea for a different system on a global scale that works better in terms of some definition of justice or fatness that works with humans and nations as they are, I am all ears.

On paper Russian ad Chinese communism was fair and just.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,332
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
The value of currency itself floats.
Not sure if you mean this is how it is today or if you mean this is how it should be. If you mean this is how it is today, I agree with you. But if you mean this is in anyway desirable, I very much disagree. One of the biggest goals of a currency is stability. In the perfect economic world, the global reserve currency would never inflate or deflate and it would always remain perfectly stable. And in the beginnings of the UK reserve currency and US reserve currency that was indeed the case. Business producers and consumers alike would always know what the paper in their pocket was worth and they could accurately expect what their currency savings would purchase in the future. Such a perfectly stable currency greatly reducing pricing errors and mal-investments that we routinely see today in the energy, housing, and auto markets.
I do not think that is possible unless both currency and economy is controlled. That s what the Soviets tried to do.

Currency floats in accordance with supply and demand as well as other factors. That is one way the economy is regulated. Money supply.

The value of currency reflects the economy. As somebody pointed out Greece which is essentiallynow a welfare state and Germany with a good economy both suffer from a common currency.

As an engineer I look at economics as a system of mass and energy governed by the principle of conservation. Everything has to add up at any point in time.

In Seattle the min wage is about $15/hour. The local economy can sustain that.

In a small rural town in India payng somebody $15/hour in US dollars would not work.

There are negatives to the global free market system. One of the positives is flexibility. Another is that it runs itself without a lot of daly control by governments.

I do not think there is any practical way to control the global economy, it is far too complex. An attempt could easily make things far worse.
 
Top Bottom