Is having sex with a prostitute as bad as raping her?

[Loren Pechtel]

What a lot of people who argue that prostitutes are desperately poor women forced into it to survive fail to realize, is that a lot of these prostitutes become quite well off through the work. The hooker you are going to go see may very well be richer than you are.

I used to live in an area that was notorious for prostitutes. I got to know a couple of them casually, enough to talk to them. They would come into the bar on cold nights when business was slow and nurse a drink or have a bowl of soup. Very sad state of affairs for these girls. They were badly treated, regularly beaten up and money taken off them. Dumped in remote parts of town after some asshole had fucked them in the mouth and not paid etc. Generally just abused and treated like shit. A "pleasant" transaction (tolerable) was if the guy paid $10 for a five minute blowjob and took her back to where he picked her up. They weren't making an awful lot of money, enough to buy drugs.

I remember one night I bumped into a girl I worked beside in the area. Turns out she was working as a prostitute for a short period of time. She was mortified that I had caught her.

I feel sorry for the girls. It's rough dealing with the sickos out there. It's all well and good saying it's a simple transaction between two consenting adults but from my experience, the girls hated it.

I've never used a prostitute, never will.

At the low end prostitution is a very lousy job, especially for those on drugs. That says nothing about what it's like at the high end.

 

[bilby]

I used to live in an area that was notorious for prostitutes. I got to know a couple of them casually, enough to talk to them. They would come into the bar on cold nights when business was slow and nurse a drink or have a bowl of soup. Very sad state of affairs for these girls. They were badly treated, regularly beaten up and money taken off them. Dumped in remote parts of town after some asshole had fucked them in the mouth and not paid etc. Generally just abused and treated like shit. A "pleasant" transaction (tolerable) was if the guy paid $10 for a five minute blowjob and took her back to where he picked her up. They weren't making an awful lot of money, enough to buy drugs.

I remember one night I bumped into a girl I worked beside in the area. Turns out she was working as a prostitute for a short period of time. She was mortified that I had caught her.

I feel sorry for the girls. It's rough dealing with the sickos out there. It's all well and good saying it's a simple transaction between two consenting adults but from my experience, the girls hated it.

I've never used a prostitute, never will.

At the low end prostitution is a very lousy job, especially for those on drugs. That says nothing about what it's like at the high end.

And this is reflective of work in general; some people do high-paid and rewarding work, and others do low-paid menial work that they really don't like much at all.

The fact that someone does low-paid menial work that they really don't like much at all does not imply that all such people are slaves - although some may be; and the fact that some prostitutes have sex they don't enjoy much for small sums of money does not imply that all such prostitutes are being raped - although again, some may be.

There are two independent situations here; Having sex for money, which is prostitution; and Having sex with someone against their will, which is rape. For the answer to the OP question to be 'Yes', you would need to show that doing something for money is synonymous with doing it against your will - and this is clearly not the case.

 

[credoconsolans]

The expensive call girl ones are. The majority however, are drug addicts and are one BJ away from starving.

That is likely true in jurisdictions where prostitution is banned; In other places, it is unlikely that such people make up a majority of prostitutes - although there is a persistent small minority of such, usually working outside the lawful and regulated sector.

Well, some unsavory jobs pay well for the very reason that few people want to do them.

Crime scene cleaners get paid very well, so do nuclear reactor inspectors.

 

[Jokodo]

That is likely true in jurisdictions where prostitution is banned; In other places, it is unlikely that such people make up a majority of prostitutes - although there is a persistent small minority of such, usually working outside the lawful and regulated sector.

Well, some unsavory jobs pay well for the very reason that few people want to do them.

Crime scene cleaners get paid very well, so do nuclear reactor inspectors.

... both of which happen to be professions requiring a high level of specialist training, and that's the real reason they pay well.

 

[credoconsolans]

Well, some unsavory jobs pay well for the very reason that few people want to do them.

Crime scene cleaners get paid very well, so do nuclear reactor inspectors.

... both of which happen to be professions requiring a high level of specialist training, and that's the real reason they pay well.

I'm not sure about the latter, but the former, no not really. They're just there to clean.

 

[Jokodo]

... both of which happen to be professions requiring a high level of specialist training, and that's the real reason they pay well.

I'm not sure about the latter, but the former, no not really. They're just there to clean.

 Crime_scene_cleanup seems to tell a different story. What they do is mostly just cleaning, but they need to be qualified to assess biohazard and properly dispose of potentially infectious waste. If this weren't so, ordinary cleaners would be sent in to do the job for ordinary cleaners' rates. In practice, in many situations, while the service is expensive, what you pay for is the supervisor's expertise while the people who do the actual cleaning often will not make much more than ordinary cleaners.

 

[credoconsolans]

I'm not sure about the latter, but the former, no not really. They're just there to clean.

 Crime_scene_cleanup seems to tell a different story. What they do is mostly just cleaning, but they need to be qualified to assess biohazard and properly dispose of potentially infectious waste. If this weren't so, ordinary cleaners would be sent in to do the job for ordinary cleaners' rates. In practice, in many situations, while the service is expensive, what you pay for is the supervisor's expertise while the people who do the actual cleaning often will not make much more than ordinary cleaners.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what's potentially infectious waste. An ex- co-worker used to run her own crime scene cleanup company. She wasn't a genius.

 

[Jokodo]

 Crime_scene_cleanup seems to tell a different story. What they do is mostly just cleaning, but they need to be qualified to assess biohazard and properly dispose of potentially infectious waste. If this weren't so, ordinary cleaners would be sent in to do the job for ordinary cleaners' rates. In practice, in many situations, while the service is expensive, what you pay for is the supervisor's expertise while the people who do the actual cleaning often will not make much more than ordinary cleaners.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what's potentially infectious waste. An ex- co-worker used to run her own crime scene cleanup company. She wasn't a genius.

Of course it doesn't take a brain surgeon. That's why no-one in the business gets a brain surgeon's salary. It does take qualifications beyond what e.g. a school dropout in desperate need of money right now can produce. If you want to live in a world where no-one's one blowjob away from starving, you should argue for tighter social safety networks. Stopping people for whom offering a blowjob is the best of many poor options from doing just that is only going to make them actually starve.

 

[credoconsolans]

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what's potentially infectious waste. An ex- co-worker used to run her own crime scene cleanup company. She wasn't a genius.

Of course it doesn't take a brain surgeon. That's why no-one in the business gets a brain surgeon's salary. It does take qualifications beyond what e.g. a school dropout in desperate need of money right now can produce. If you want to live in a world where no-one's one blowjob away from starving, you should argue for tighter social safety networks. Stopping people for whom offering a blowjob is the best of many poor options from doing just that is only going to make them actually starve.

I'd rather stop the customers from seeking out such 'services'. Take away the demand, there is no supply.

 

[bilby]

Of course it doesn't take a brain surgeon. That's why no-one in the business gets a brain surgeon's salary. It does take qualifications beyond what e.g. a school dropout in desperate need of money right now can produce. If you want to live in a world where no-one's one blowjob away from starving, you should argue for tighter social safety networks. Stopping people for whom offering a blowjob is the best of many poor options from doing just that is only going to make them actually starve.

I'd rather stop the customers from seeking out such 'services'. Take away the demand, there is no supply.

Regulated legal brothels go a very long way towards removing demand for streetwalkers, in exactly the same way that licensed bars reduce the demand for moonshine.

The demand for either illegal variant can probably never be eliminated entirely though.

 

[Jokodo]

Of course it doesn't take a brain surgeon. That's why no-one in the business gets a brain surgeon's salary. It does take qualifications beyond what e.g. a school dropout in desperate need of money right now can produce. If you want to live in a world where no-one's one blowjob away from starving, you should argue for tighter social safety networks. Stopping people for whom offering a blowjob is the best of many poor options from doing just that is only going to make them actually starve.

I'd rather stop the customers from seeking out such 'services'. Take away the demand, there is no supply.

We realise that you'd rather do that. What you haven't done is argue why that'd be a contribution to a better world. And "no supply" entails that people for whom offering a blowjob is subjectively the best of many poor options are stuck with an even less ideal option. How's that better?

 

[fromderinside]

I'd rather stop the customers from seeking out such 'services'. Take away the demand, there is no supply.

We realise that you'd rather do that. What you haven't done is argue why that'd be a contribution to a better world. And "no supply" entails that people for whom offering a blowjob is subjectively the best of many poor options are stuck with an even less ideal option. How's that better?

Jumping in without asking .... again. Sex workers relieve wives and husbands with certain beliefs from doing things men or women normally want. Strong marital benefit if the practice is legal.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'd rather stop the customers from seeking out such 'services'. Take away the demand, there is no supply.

Why? Shouldn't the goal be to stop women from being forced into sex slavery? If an adult woman chooses to sell her body and an adult male chooses to buy it, why on earth would there be a benefit to stopping that?

 

[fromderinside]

I'd rather stop the customers from seeking out such 'services'. Take away the demand, there is no supply.

Why? Shouldn't the goal be to stop women from being forced into sex slavery? If an adult woman chooses to sell her body and an adult male chooses to buy it, why on earth would there be a benefit to stopping that?

Poking nose again.

Stopping guys from wanting sex with women, any woman, all women is as ill conceived as curing homosexuality with endocrine interrupter drugs. Its built in so one has to accommodate in society else society dominates individual.

 

[credoconsolans]

I'd rather stop the customers from seeking out such 'services'. Take away the demand, there is no supply.

Why? Shouldn't the goal be to stop women from being forced into sex slavery? If an adult woman chooses to sell her body and an adult male chooses to buy it, why on earth would there be a benefit to stopping that?

Attitude.

Such an attitude about women, will become institutionalized. "If one woman will sell her body, why wouldn't all of them?"

The idea that 'all women are whores' becomes ubiquitous. In countries where prostitution is legalized, such a job is looked upon as a career opportunity for women.

There was an incident a year or so ago in a country where prostitution is legal, where a teenage girl, looking for her first job, was sent an application to wait tables in a whorehouse.

The offer was retracted, the government said it was a mistake as the girl was too young, but what would have happened if she was old enough?

I'm sorry, but if a woman is unemployed and unable to get a job, she shouldn't be told that prostitution is legal and therefore something she needs to look into before she relies on unemployment or other social services.

 

[bilby]

Why? Shouldn't the goal be to stop women from being forced into sex slavery? If an adult woman chooses to sell her body and an adult male chooses to buy it, why on earth would there be a benefit to stopping that?

Attitude.

Such an attitude about women, will become institutionalized. "If one woman will sell her body, why wouldn't all of them?"

The idea that 'all women are whores' becomes ubiquitous. In countries where prostitution is legalized, such a job is looked upon as a career opportunity for women.

There was an incident a year or so ago in a country where prostitution is legal, where a teenage girl, looking for her first job, was sent an application to wait tables in a whorehouse.

The offer was retracted, the government said it was a mistake as the girl was too young, but what would have happened if she was old enough?

I'm sorry, but if a woman is unemployed and unable to get a job, she shouldn't be told that prostitution is legal and therefore something she needs to look into before she relies on unemployment or other social services.

Such an attitude about women, will become institutionalized. "If one woman will sell her brain, why wouldn't all of them?"

The idea that 'all women are mathematicians' becomes ubiquitous. In countries where book-keeping is legalized, such a job is looked upon as a career opportunity for women.

There was an incident a year or so ago in a country where book-keeping is legal, where a teenage girl, looking for her first job, was sent an application to answer telephones in an accountancy office.

The offer was retracted, the government said it was a mistake as the girl was too young, but what would have happened if she was old enough?

I'm sorry, but if a woman is unemployed and unable to get a job, she shouldn't be told that book-keeping is legal and therefore something she needs to look into before she relies on unemployment or other social services.




Many people would loathe working as a book-keeper in an accountancy firm; They would think of it as a living hell. But that's OK, because such people can simply not work as book-keepers.

But when it comes to prostitution, you seem to think that more protections than just the freedom to choose not to do a job you would hate are required. Why is that?


Your arguments seem to start from the flawed premise 'Prostitution is ALWAYS bad'; Is that what you believe? If so, can you support it with any evidence, or are we supposed to simply accept it as axiomatic?

 

[Jokodo]

Why? Shouldn't the goal be to stop women from being forced into sex slavery? If an adult woman chooses to sell her body and an adult male chooses to buy it, why on earth would there be a benefit to stopping that?

Attitude.

Such an attitude about women, will become institutionalized. "If one woman will sell her body, why wouldn't all of them?"

First, stop talking about women selling their bodies, both of you. I know it's a widespread way to refer to prostitution, but it's really muddying the waters and very counterproductive to any attempt to understand the real issues around prostitution. We can tell that prostitutes don't sell their bodies from the simple fact that the have the same number of bodies before and after the transaction. That is, unless you think that their body somehow becomes profaned and worthless. That's some serious slut-shaming and reducing women to their sexuality right there, at the hands not of people who buy a prostitute's services but of those who refer to it as body-selling.

Second, the existence of restaurants has not lead to people bumping into just any house demanding food, nor has it encouraged guests at a private dinner party to show the same shitty behaviour and expect the same submissive service some people feel free to show and expect in restaurants. Of course, some people are shitty guests, but it would be ludicrous to blame restaurants for that. The existence of taxi services has not encouraged people to jump into just any car at junctions demanding to be taken home, nor has it encouraged anyone who gets a lift privately to demand a specific route be taken and to expect the driver to take care of their luggage. Some people can be shitty passengers, but I've never heard anyone blame taxis. It seems, in general, people are well equipped to distinguish between when they are paying for a service, when they can't expect that service, and when someone does them a favour or engages in a mutually beneficial interaction, even when the substance of the benefit they receive is equivalent. So, logically, why would the existence of prostitution encourage people to expect sexual services for money from just anyone with a female body, or to treat women in their lives like some johns treat prostitutes? Way to many men do show shitty behaviour towards the women in their lives, but blaming that on prostitution makes no more sense than blaming restaurants and taxis for shitty guests and passengers.

The idea that 'all women are whores' becomes ubiquitous. In countries where prostitution is legalized, such a job is looked upon as a career opportunity for women.

There was an incident a year or so ago in a country where prostitution is legal, where a teenage girl, looking for her first job, was sent an application to wait tables in a whorehouse.

The offer was retracted, the government said it was a mistake as the girl was too young, but what would have happened if she was old enough?

There was an incident vaguely resembling what you talk about in Germany around 2009 or so. It has been widely misreported in the English-speaking media and has become an established staple of prohibitionist argumentation ever since. Is that the one you mean.

I'm sorry, but if a woman is unemployed and unable to get a job, she shouldn't be told that prostitution is legal and therefore something she needs to look into before she relies on unemployment or other social services.

Nobody should be told that <job-they-find-objectionable> is something the need to look into before relying on unemployment. That is not an argument to ban any and all jobs someone finds objectionable.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Why? Shouldn't the goal be to stop women from being forced into sex slavery? If an adult woman chooses to sell her body and an adult male chooses to buy it, why on earth would there be a benefit to stopping that?

Attitude.

Such an attitude about women, will become institutionalized. "If one woman will sell her body, why wouldn't all of them?"

The idea that 'all women are whores' becomes ubiquitous.

You and I seem to have very different attitudes about what the role of the police should be in society. I do not believe that the government should be using the police force to arrest people in order to send a message to others so as to enforce societal change. They should be arresting people because those specific individuals have committed offenses which are worthy of incarceration - full stop. An adult man and an adult woman having consentual sex with each other does not meet that requirement, regardless of why they gave their consent.

Now, this response does only apply if by "stop the customers from seeking out such 'services'", you meant "have them arrested for hiring prostitutes". If you meant something else, please let me know and I'll respond to that.

In countries where prostitution is legalized, such a job is looked upon as a career opportunity for women.

There was an incident a year or so ago in a country where prostitution is legal, where a teenage girl, looking for her first job, was sent an application to wait tables in a whorehouse.

The offer was retracted, the government said it was a mistake as the girl was too young, but what would have happened if she was old enough?

I'm sorry, but if a woman is unemployed and unable to get a job, she shouldn't be told that prostitution is legal and therefore something she needs to look into before she relies on unemployment or other social services.

Ya, if I were running a jobs program, I'd be cool with that not being something she needs to look into. If there's something about a job which you find distasteful, that's a good reason not to apply for that job. If a devout Christian were looking for work and the only thing available was a job in a mosque, I'd prefer that he stay on welfare than take a job in a place he considers a heathen religion. If a vegan is looking for work and the only job available is in a butcher shop, I'd prefer that she stay on welfare than take a job in a place which she considers to be murdering animals. If someone is a recovering alcoholic and the only job available is working in a bar, I'd prefer they stay on welfare than take a job in a place where they're tempted by alcohol all day long. In a similar vein, one requires a certain attitude to work as a prostitute or even within the industry. If one does not have that attitude that is, in and of itself, a good reason not to apply for any such jobs. There's nothing about legalized prostitution which makes it a thing they need to look into which can't be handled with a perfectly reasonable exemption.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

First, stop talking about women selling their bodies, both of you. I know it's a widespread way to refer to prostitution, but it's really muddying the waters and very counterproductive to any attempt to understand the real issues around prostitution. We can tell that prostitutes don't sell their bodies from the simple fact that the have the same number of bodies before and after the transaction. That is, unless you think that their body somehow becomes profaned and worthless. That's some serious slut-shaming and reducing women to their sexuality right there, at the hands not of people who buy a prostitute's services but of those who refer to it as body-selling.

Ummm ... no.

That's taking a position that there's only one definition of the word "selling" and every usage of that word must conform only to that definition as opposed to one of the other definitions of that word. I am a computer programmer and I sell my knowledge of how to program computers. After I have sold this service, I still have just as much knowledge of computer programming as I did before hand. This doesn't mean that I somehow didn't sell the thing I was paid for. Similarly with a prostitute, her body is the service which she provides. People buy access to it for a set period of time. The notion that this makes it somehow not a sale because there are still only two bodies after the transaction is just plain wrong.

The notion that calling it a sale necessarily profanes her body and makes it worthless is a logical train of thought where I don't see how you got from A to C. Could you expand upon how there are zero other ways to view this?

 

[fromderinside]

First, stop talking about women selling their bodies, both of you. I know it's a widespread way to refer to prostitution, but it's really muddying the waters and very counterproductive to any attempt to understand the real issues around prostitution. We can tell that prostitutes don't sell their bodies from the simple fact that the have the same number of bodies before and after the transaction. That is, unless you think that their body somehow becomes profaned and worthless. That's some serious slut-shaming and reducing women to their sexuality right there, at the hands not of people who buy a prostitute's services but of those who refer to it as body-selling.

Ummm ... no.

That's taking a position that there's only one definition of the word "selling" and every usage of that word must conform only to that definition as opposed to one of the other definitions of that word. I am a computer programmer and I sell my knowledge of how to program computers. After I have sold this service, I still have just as much knowledge of computer programming as I did before hand. This doesn't mean that I somehow didn't sell the thing I was paid for. Similarly with a prostitute, her body is the service which she provides. People buy access to it for a set period of time. The notion that this makes it somehow not a sale because there are still only two bodies after the transaction is just plain wrong.

The notion that calling it a sale necessarily profanes her body and makes it worthless is a logical train of thought where I don't see how you got from A to C. Could you expand upon how there are zero other ways to view this?

How about we agree that selling bodies and knowledge are just shitty ways of fucking up what is being sold and bought. The prostitute is selling a service one can provide involving one's body that is wanted by males or females. Same with programmers. One is selling a service one can provide for a willing buyer who needs or wants the service in any case.

To much needle threading .....