Is it time for us to start working on leaving the planet?

[Tom Sawyer]

... you'll have some libertarians go gault in space.

And then because they try to run a society based off of libertarian principles, they'll all die quickly and the rest of us get a free space station.

 

[Bronzeage]

I'm probably paying more attention than it warrants. Why do you think a project which is financed by the many various powerbases on this planet will be free of geopolitics?

What race or group is going to claim that they were at the colony first? How would the space that the space colony takes up in outer space affect societies on Earth? How would it be an issue or obstacle for them? So far the International Space Station has not had any aboriginals come forward and claim ownership.

The group who footed the bill is going to claim control of the colony. The group who has the most support of their Earth base will contest this claim. Any population large enough to sustain itself, is going to have internal political differences.

How do you insure domestic tranquility in your space colony?

 

[ryan]

So let's just barge into Afghanistan and teach their children critical thinking. I am sure that won't start a blood bath.

There is a lot of great things happening educationally because of the internet. The big time philanthropists are all over this.

We seem to be closing in on a global understanding, possibly a global consciousness. But in the meantime, we can start working towards plan B.

So because there are parts of the world that have extremely poor education, we should therefore give up and leave the planet entirely?

There are many well educated people who are very religious. A close Muslim friend, from Libya, who I have known for 3 years now is in his 2 year of engineering. He is very smart and very reasonable with day-to-day decision making. He does his praying everyday, fasts on Ramadan and had 1 beer in the 5 years that he has been in Canada and doesn't want to drink again. He has 4 brothers, 3 are engineers and 1 is in a business with their father. They are all strict with the Islamic religion.

The point is, a few weeks ago when there was another one of those stories about a female adulterer getting stoned to death for having sexual relations with another man, he said something quite chilling to me. He asked me why we (North Americans) think it is so bad to stone her to death. I said because it isn't justified. He said that stoning her will allow Allah to give pity on her. They believe that they are helping her.

No matter how much science he knows and education he has, he will never shake his religion.

 

[ryan]

If I was in a compassionate frame of mind, I would find this thread somewhat worrying. What is it with you and all of these big ideas? Can you cope with the world as it is, without feeling an urge to save or fix unmanageably large segments of it? Do you ever feel like you're screaming into a void while chaos devours everything around you?

No, I am learning from all of this. If I had a trillion dollars in my pocket, I would still want to know what you all thought of this before I spent a penny of it.

It makes sense for humans to attempt to colonize space as the rape of Earth eventually runs into diminishing returns. Given climate change and the like, it makes sense for humans to be working on this now, to some extent. And AFAIK, they are. It makes no sense at all for progressives to form ideologically pure space colonies to escape terran geopolitical strife.

Okay, so do you think they should stay and battle it out like what is happening now?

That's an insufficient incentive to motivate sane adults to leave the planet. The risk and expense of space colonization is greater than the risk and expense of continuing to fight over this mudball.

Expense is slowly becoming meaningless as automation becomes more advanced. We can build things cheaper than ever before, and this acceleration of cost effectiveness does not seem to be slowing down.

Imagine what it would have cost to build the Pyramids when they were built. I actually think that one guy to do it now by renting the proper equipment.

 

[ryan]

What race or group is going to claim that they were at the colony first? How would the space that the space colony takes up in outer space affect societies on Earth? How would it be an issue or obstacle for them? So far the International Space Station has not had any aboriginals come forward and claim ownership.

The group who footed the bill is going to claim control of the colony. The group who has the most support of their Earth base will contest this claim. Any population large enough to sustain itself, is going to have internal political differences.

Yes, and nobody should argue it. When things are clear and documented, there will just be a much less chance of conflicting claims.

That's not really a geopolitical problem. I was talking more about land claims, embargoes, pollution (of all sorts), etc.

How do you insure domestic tranquility in your space colony?

It won't be Utopia.

 

[Bronzeage]

The group who footed the bill is going to claim control of the colony. The group who has the most support of their Earth base will contest this claim. Any population large enough to sustain itself, is going to have internal political differences.

Yes, and nobody should argue it. When things are clear and documented, there will just be a much less chance of conflicting claims

That's not really a geopolitical problem. I was talking more about land claims, embargoes, pollution (of all sorts), etc.

How do you insure domestic tranquility in your space colony?

It won't be Utopia.

It won't be any different than any other settlement on Earth, either. How many wars were started, despite how clear and well documented things were?

 

[ryan]

Yes, and nobody should argue it. When things are clear and documented, there will just be a much less chance of conflicting claims

That's not really a geopolitical problem. I was talking more about land claims, embargoes, pollution (of all sorts), etc.

How do you insure domestic tranquility in your space colony?

It won't be Utopia.

It won't be any different than any other settlement on Earth, either. How many wars were started, despite how clear and well documented things were?

Explain the clear and documented rights of North, Central and South America, Israel, South Africa, Hong Kong, Tibet, Chechnya, Georgia, Northern Ireland, etc. Everyone is a little right and a little wrong. Messes like these never go away, and never will. They are excuses to start new wars when times get tough.

It is time to start designing a system from the lessons learnt on Earth.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Come on Keith, I would hope that you would understand that I am talking about geopolitics as being a major problem and not the only problem - you know better.

Then you're packing 'small' problems into a tiny colony. Which magnifies the small problems, right?

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Imagine the problems of a city. The political groups, the religious groups, gangs, people who want to smoke, people who want no one to smoke, vegans, foodies, comics, all the different groups.
If you take away their concern for international politics, the only thing that does for all the other little concerns and problems is increase the percentage of time the people think about them.

This is your weakest argument yet.

Argument? This is an observation.
I've been underwater for 100 days. Tiny little problems in the real world, like what movie to watch, are left up to individuals. We have plenty of theaters, home entertainment consoles, other options.
When there's only one movie on the messdecks, it becomes a major concern for everyone involved.
No one's ever swung a fist, in my experience, simply because most of the gang wanted to go see Galaxina a fourth time.

500 people in an apartment building with one obnoxious punk is a problem.

50 people in one apartment with one obnoxious punk is a bigger problem for those 50 people.

Why is it a bigger problem for 50 people rather than 500?

Note, the 500 people are in 1 building, but diferent apartments loosely connected. They have separate lives, more room, more options, more privacy.
Fifty people in one apartment don't have as many option for privacy, they can NOT hold themselves separate from the issue, all issues affect all of them.

In the 500, a guy with a nervous tic is someone you recognize, but don't hang out with.
In the 50, in the single apartment, the nervous tic is somebody you have to deal with directly. The problems magnify in scrutiny and importance.

This is the biggest problem i see in your plan.

There actually is data on people living in confined conditions and how they deal. YOu just handwave the concerns and figure they'll just have some future-special way to deal with all the issues. On your perpetual motion machine of a spaceship...

 

[ryan]

Come on Keith, I would hope that you would understand that I am talking about geopolitics as being a major problem and not the only problem - you know better.

Then you're packing 'small' problems into a tiny colony. Which magnifies the small problems, right?

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Imagine the problems of a city. The political groups, the religious groups, gangs, people who want to smoke, people who want no one to smoke, vegans, foodies, comics, all the different groups.
If you take away their concern for international politics, the only thing that does for all the other little concerns and problems is increase the percentage of time the people think about them.

This is your weakest argument yet.

Argument? This is an observation.
I've been underwater for 100 days. Tiny little problems in the real world, like what movie to watch, are left up to individuals. We have plenty of theaters, home entertainment consoles, other options.
When there's only one movie on the messdecks, it becomes a major concern for everyone involved.
No one's ever swung a fist, in my experience, simply because most of the gang wanted to go see Galaxina a fourth time.

500 people in an apartment building with one obnoxious punk is a problem.

50 people in one apartment with one obnoxious punk is a bigger problem for those 50 people.

Why is it a bigger problem for 50 people rather than 500?

Note, the 500 people are in 1 building, but diferent apartments loosely connected. They have separate lives, more room, more options, more privacy.
Fifty people in one apartment don't have as many option for privacy, they can NOT hold themselves separate from the issue, all issues affect all of them.

In the 500, a guy with a nervous tic is someone you recognize, but don't hang out with.
In the 50, in the single apartment, the nervous tic is somebody you have to deal with directly. The problems magnify in scrutiny and importance.

This is the biggest problem i see in your plan.

There actually is data on people living in confined conditions and how they deal. YOu just handwave the concerns and figure they'll just have some future-special way to deal with all the issues. On your perpetual motion machine of a spaceship...

I lived in Vancouver for 6 years. Vancouver was built on the notion of suburbanizing downtown so that they live and work in the same place, and it worked and is working! They did not do the suburbanized plan like most of Canada and the U.S. did in the 40's and 50's which is why we are the way we are today. They tried something new. Only Mexico City, New York and San Francisco are more dense in North America.

Anyways, the point is that they gambled on people wanting to stay and be happy in a very dense space but with all the amenities, and it more than paid off. Vancouver has over 600,000 people, but you can walk across it in a couple hours. It was such a great place to live.

Oh I miss Vancouver so much; it is so great there.

And in almost all of Canada, if you don't have a car, you are pretty much confined to your home. Most of the students I know have a very small bubble that they live in. They are squished like sardines in the dorms and homes that they rent. Then they walk down the street or through buildings to get to class. Some of them don't even have to go outside all Winter. And they are happy.

Also, we haven't discussed the size of the colony. So yeah, we are going to need a space to population ratio similar to New York or Vancouver. Oh, and by the way, you can walk anywhere in Vancouver at anytime of night. People are happy and have fun there, and they are not afraid to walk around at night. It really is a great place.

 

[Bronzeage]

Yes, and nobody should argue it. When things are clear and documented, there will just be a much less chance of conflicting claims

That's not really a geopolitical problem. I was talking more about land claims, embargoes, pollution (of all sorts), etc.

How do you insure domestic tranquility in your space colony?

It won't be Utopia.

It won't be any different than any other settlement on Earth, either. How many wars were started, despite how clear and well documented things were?

Explain the clear and documented rights of North, Central and South America, Israel, South Africa, Hong Kong, Tibet, Chechnya, Georgia, Northern Ireland, etc. Everyone is a little right and a little wrong. Messes like these never go away, and never will. They are excuses to start new wars when times get tough.

It is time to start designing a system from the lessons learnt on Earth.

So, messes like this will never go away, but you think they somehow arise from contact with the surface of this planet and can be avoided if we find people who are completely right and then launch them into space.

Okay, I'm game. What is your initial plan for a system, based on the lessons learned from Earth?

 

[ryan]

Yes, and nobody should argue it. When things are clear and documented, there will just be a much less chance of conflicting claims

That's not really a geopolitical problem. I was talking more about land claims, embargoes, pollution (of all sorts), etc.

How do you insure domestic tranquility in your space colony?

It won't be Utopia.

It won't be any different than any other settlement on Earth, either. How many wars were started, despite how clear and well documented things were?

Explain the clear and documented rights of North, Central and South America, Israel, South Africa, Hong Kong, Tibet, Chechnya, Georgia, Northern Ireland, etc. Everyone is a little right and a little wrong. Messes like these never go away, and never will. They are excuses to start new wars when times get tough.

It is time to start designing a system from the lessons learnt on Earth.

So, messes like this will never go away, but you think they somehow arise from contact with the surface of this planet and can be avoided if we find people who are completely right and then launch them into space.

Okay, I'm game. What is your initial plan for a system, based on the lessons learned from Earth?

Are you serious?

We need to develop an extremely brilliant and motivating business plan for financial investors and philanthropy plan for donors. It will take volunteer work from the best business, marketing, leadership/management, engineering, science, political schools/programs and consulting firms. I have found where these programs are and who to contact.

But this whole idea is also necessary to combat the problem of overpopulation if we ever want to chose when we die, the eventual destruction of the planet and basically to insure the survival of the human race from extinction.

My main focus is just as much on advancing medicine as colonising space.

 

[bilby]

Come on Keith, I would hope that you would understand that I am talking about geopolitics as being a major problem and not the only problem - you know better.

Then you're packing 'small' problems into a tiny colony. Which magnifies the small problems, right?

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Imagine the problems of a city. The political groups, the religious groups, gangs, people who want to smoke, people who want no one to smoke, vegans, foodies, comics, all the different groups.
If you take away their concern for international politics, the only thing that does for all the other little concerns and problems is increase the percentage of time the people think about them.

This is your weakest argument yet.

Argument? This is an observation.
I've been underwater for 100 days. Tiny little problems in the real world, like what movie to watch, are left up to individuals. We have plenty of theaters, home entertainment consoles, other options.
When there's only one movie on the messdecks, it becomes a major concern for everyone involved.
No one's ever swung a fist, in my experience, simply because most of the gang wanted to go see Galaxina a fourth time.

500 people in an apartment building with one obnoxious punk is a problem.

50 people in one apartment with one obnoxious punk is a bigger problem for those 50 people.

Why is it a bigger problem for 50 people rather than 500?

Note, the 500 people are in 1 building, but diferent apartments loosely connected. They have separate lives, more room, more options, more privacy.
Fifty people in one apartment don't have as many option for privacy, they can NOT hold themselves separate from the issue, all issues affect all of them.

In the 500, a guy with a nervous tic is someone you recognize, but don't hang out with.
In the 50, in the single apartment, the nervous tic is somebody you have to deal with directly. The problems magnify in scrutiny and importance.

This is the biggest problem i see in your plan.

There actually is data on people living in confined conditions and how they deal. YOu just handwave the concerns and figure they'll just have some future-special way to deal with all the issues. On your perpetual motion machine of a spaceship...

I lived in Vancouver for 6 years. Vancouver was built on the notion of suburbanizing downtown so that they live and work in the same place, and it worked and is working! They did not do the suburbanized plan like most of Canada and the U.S. did in the 40's and 50's which is why we are the way we are today. They tried something new. Only Mexico City, New York and San Francisco are more dense in North America.

Anyways, the point is that they gambled on people wanting to stay and be happy in a very dense space but with all the amenities, and it more than paid off. Vancouver has over 600,000 people, but you can walk across it in a couple hours. It was such a great place to live.

Oh I miss Vancouver so much; it is so great there.

And in almost all of Canada, if you don't have a car, you are pretty much confined to your home. Most of the students I know have a very small bubble that they live in. They are squished like sardines in the dorms and homes that they rent. Then they walk down the street or through buildings to get to class. Some of them don't even have to go outside all Winter. And they are happy.

Also, we haven't discussed the size of the colony. So yeah, we are going to need a space to population ratio similar to New York or Vancouver. Oh, and by the way, you can walk anywhere in Vancouver at anytime of night. People are happy and have fun there, and they are not afraid to walk around at night. It really is a great place.

So don't worry about space - start working on moving to Vancouver. Surely this is easier, cheaper and less controversial than establishing a colony in space? You don't even need anyone else to help you out by developing new technologies - our existing technology will get you to Vancouver from pretty much anywhere in the world in a few days. If you are anywhere in the Americas, you can walk there in less than five years, without having to spend all day every day on the road.

 

[Bronzeage]

Yes, and nobody should argue it. When things are clear and documented, there will just be a much less chance of conflicting claims

That's not really a geopolitical problem. I was talking more about land claims, embargoes, pollution (of all sorts), etc.

How do you insure domestic tranquility in your space colony?

It won't be Utopia.

It won't be any different than any other settlement on Earth, either. How many wars were started, despite how clear and well documented things were?

Explain the clear and documented rights of North, Central and South America, Israel, South Africa, Hong Kong, Tibet, Chechnya, Georgia, Northern Ireland, etc. Everyone is a little right and a little wrong. Messes like these never go away, and never will. They are excuses to start new wars when times get tough.

It is time to start designing a system from the lessons learnt on Earth.

So, messes like this will never go away, but you think they somehow arise from contact with the surface of this planet and can be avoided if we find people who are completely right and then launch them into space.

Okay, I'm game. What is your initial plan for a system, based on the lessons learned from Earth?

Are you serious?

We need to develop an extremely brilliant and motivating business plan for financial investors and philanthropy plan for donors. It will take volunteer work from the best business, marketing, leadership/management, engineering, science, political schools/programs and consulting firms. I have found where these programs are and who to contact.

But this whole idea is also necessary to combat the problem of overpopulation if we ever want to chose when we die, the eventual destruction of the planet and basically to insure the survival of the human race from extinction.

My main focus is just as much on advancing medicine as colonising space.

That is the question I keep asking you to address. As Tonto said, "What do you mean 'we', whiteman?"

Every response you give gets sillier and you seem unable to perceive this. Overpopulation is a problem of limited resources for the number of people. You propose to send people where there are no resources, which requires them to take everything they need with them.

You want to trade our terrestrial problems, such as inequitable distribution of resources, which leads to war and conflict, which exacerbates overpopulation, all of which have solutions at the current time, for a project which has no current feasibility, no current source of funds, and will serve a miniscule portion of the population.

It's like walking the tilting deck of the Titanic and asking other passengers to help you fashion deck chairs into a lifeboat for one.

 

[ryan]

I lived in Vancouver for 6 years. Vancouver was built on the notion of suburbanizing downtown so that they live and work in the same place, and it worked and is working! They did not do the suburbanized plan like most of Canada and the U.S. did in the 40's and 50's which is why we are the way we are today. They tried something new. Only Mexico City, New York and San Francisco are more dense in North America.

Anyways, the point is that they gambled on people wanting to stay and be happy in a very dense space but with all the amenities, and it more than paid off. Vancouver has over 600,000 people, but you can walk across it in a couple hours. It was such a great place to live.

Oh I miss Vancouver so much; it is so great there.

And in almost all of Canada, if you don't have a car, you are pretty much confined to your home. Most of the students I know have a very small bubble that they live in. They are squished like sardines in the dorms and homes that they rent. Then they walk down the street or through buildings to get to class. Some of them don't even have to go outside all Winter. And they are happy.

Also, we haven't discussed the size of the colony. So yeah, we are going to need a space to population ratio similar to New York or Vancouver. Oh, and by the way, you can walk anywhere in Vancouver at anytime of night. People are happy and have fun there, and they are not afraid to walk around at night. It really is a great place.

So don't worry about space - start working on moving to Vancouver. Surely this is easier, cheaper and less controversial than establishing a colony in space? You don't even need anyone else to help you out by developing new technologies - our existing technology will get you to Vancouver from pretty much anywhere in the world in a few days. If you are anywhere in the Americas, you can walk there in less than five years, without having to spend all day every day on the road.

Okay, but then how does that help the rest of the world? I will still be paying taxes for conflicts that I don't believe in. I will still be voting for parties that perpetuate the world's problems. I have to worry when ISIS, or the next thing, inevitably decides to terrorise it.

We can't live in harmony when everything is so interconnected. Designing something that will work better is what we should start doing. The world will hear about the harmony in space, and they will follow suit.

 

[ryan]

Are you serious?

We need to develop an extremely brilliant and motivating business plan for financial investors and philanthropy plan for donors. It will take volunteer work from the best business, marketing, leadership/management, engineering, science, political schools/programs and consulting firms. I have found where these programs are and who to contact.

But this whole idea is also necessary to combat the problem of overpopulation if we ever want to chose when we die, the eventual destruction of the planet and basically to insure the survival of the human race from extinction.

My main focus is just as much on advancing medicine as colonising space.

That is the question I keep asking you to address. As Tonto said, "What do you mean 'we', whiteman?"

Tonto?

And what posts were you asking this?

Anyways, the answer is similar to asking who will get to ride in the ISS. It is not going to be in everybody's interest. I know families that won't move to the other side of town because they don't want their children to switch schools.

Every response you give gets sillier and you seem unable to perceive this. Overpopulation is a problem of limited resources for the number of people. You propose to send people where there are no resources, which requires them to take everything they need with them.

I thought that we already went over this. It would be a colony with a fixed mass. Everything will be 100% recyclable. The only input is the odd resource and the energy from the Sun.

You want to trade our terrestrial problems, such as inequitable distribution of resources, which leads to war and conflict, which exacerbates overpopulation, all of which have solutions at the current time, for a project which has no current feasibility, no current source of funds, and will serve a miniscule portion of the population.

See above.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I lived in Vancouver for 6 years. Vancouver was built on the notion of suburbanizing downtown so that they live and work in the same place, and it worked and is working! They did not do the suburbanized plan like most of Canada and the U.S. did in the 40's and 50's which is why we are the way we are today. They tried something new. Only Mexico City, New York and San Francisco are more dense in North America.

Which is meaningless as a counter to my argument unless the walls around Vancouver are impenetrable. Does anyone in Vancouver ever travel? Import anything? Is the water recycled 100%?
Do they have private homes and rooms with doors that can shut?

It is nothing like packing the population into a civilization ship, ryan.

Anyways, the point is that they gambled on people wanting to stay and be happy in a very dense space but with all the amenities, and it more than paid off. Vancouver has over 600,000 people, but you can walk across it in a couple hours. It was such a great place to live.

Was? So you left? That doesn't really make it analogous to a spaceship heading off to colonize another star or someplace out of Earth's view.

And in almost all of Canada, if you don't have a car, you are pretty much confined to your home.

No one in Canada ever goes to Disneyworld, then?

Most of the students I know have a very small bubble that they live in. They are squished like sardines in the dorms and homes that they rent. Then they walk down the street or through buildings to get to class. Some of them don't even have to go outside all Winter. And they are happy.

Try shifting 'all winter' to 'for three to twenty generations,' see if it's still rosy.

Also, we haven't discussed the size of the colony. So yeah, we are going to need a space to population ratio similar to New York or Vancouver. Oh, and by the way, you can walk anywhere in Vancouver at anytime of night. People are happy and have fun there, and they are not afraid to walk around at night. It really is a great place.

Big whoop. This is nothing like addressing spaceship densities and the magnification of problems in smaller populations.

But it is rosy and optimistic. Very much a ryan-analogy.

 

[ryan]

Which is meaningless as a counter to my argument unless the walls around Vancouver are impenetrable. Does anyone in Vancouver ever travel? Import anything? Is the water recycled 100%?
Do they have private homes and rooms with doors that can shut?

You were talking about being stuck in a submarine with one movie, so I tried explaining that it didn't have to be that bleak.

There would need to be technology that can recycle products in the colony. The total mass of the colony would be fixed.

It is nothing like packing the population into a civilization ship, ryan.

This is such a weak argument; how much room do you think we need? People are also limited here on Earth, and they hardly explore any of it.

Anyways, the point is that they gambled on people wanting to stay and be happy in a very dense space but with all the amenities, and it more than paid off. Vancouver has over 600,000 people, but you can walk across it in a couple hours. It was such a great place to live.

Was? So you left? That doesn't really make it analogous to a spaceship heading off to colonize another star or someplace out of Earth's view.

And when did I say that people could never leave the colony?

And in almost all of Canada, if you don't have a car, you are pretty much confined to your home.

No one in Canada ever goes to Disneyworld, then?

I know that if they can't, it's not going to cause them to bring Canada down from the inside.

Most of the students I know have a very small bubble that they live in. They are squished like sardines in the dorms and homes that they rent. Then they walk down the street or through buildings to get to class. Some of them don't even have to go outside all Winter. And they are happy.

Try shifting 'all winter' to 'for three to twenty generations,' see if it's still rosy.

There is only one way to find out.

Also, we haven't discussed the size of the colony. So yeah, we are going to need a space to population ratio similar to New York or Vancouver. Oh, and by the way, you can walk anywhere in Vancouver at anytime of night. People are happy and have fun there, and they are not afraid to walk around at night. It really is a great place.

Big whoop. This is nothing like addressing spaceship densities and the magnification of problems in smaller populations.

Magnification of problems might exist in a submarine, but they probably wouldn't exist in large enough societies.

 

[Bronzeage]

That is the question I keep asking you to address. As Tonto said, "What do you mean 'we', whiteman?"

Tonto?

And what posts were you asking this?

Anyways, the answer is similar to asking who will get to ride in the ISS. It is not going to be in everybody's interest. I know families that won't move to the other side of town because they don't want their children to switch schools.

Every response you give gets sillier and you seem unable to perceive this. Overpopulation is a problem of limited resources for the number of people. You propose to send people where there are no resources, which requires them to take everything they need with them.

I thought that we already went over this. It would be a colony with a fixed mass. Everything will be 100% recyclable. The only input is the odd resource and the energy from the Sun.

You want to trade our terrestrial problems, such as inequitable distribution of resources, which leads to war and conflict, which exacerbates overpopulation, all of which have solutions at the current time, for a project which has no current feasibility, no current source of funds, and will serve a minuscule portion of the population.

See above.

Tonto was a great philosopher. It's easy to research, if you are interested.

Your plan, as you propose it, is unworkable. Every solution you give to each objection only exposes more problems. Entropy and the law of diminishing returns guarantees that 100% recyclable is impossible. Resources will either have to come from Earth, or found where every the colony happens to be. This brings back Tonto's question, which you have yet to address. Why should we, the people left behind, support your space resort camp, since you have abandoned us to our fate, in favor of your space sanctuary.

 

[ryan]

Tonto?

And what posts were you asking this?

Anyways, the answer is similar to asking who will get to ride in the ISS. It is not going to be in everybody's interest. I know families that won't move to the other side of town because they don't want their children to switch schools.

Every response you give gets sillier and you seem unable to perceive this. Overpopulation is a problem of limited resources for the number of people. You propose to send people where there are no resources, which requires them to take everything they need with them.

I thought that we already went over this. It would be a colony with a fixed mass. Everything will be 100% recyclable. The only input is the odd resource and the energy from the Sun.

You want to trade our terrestrial problems, such as inequitable distribution of resources, which leads to war and conflict, which exacerbates overpopulation, all of which have solutions at the current time, for a project which has no current feasibility, no current source of funds, and will serve a minuscule portion of the population.

See above.

Tonto was a great philosopher. It's easy to research, if you are interested.

Your plan, as you propose it, is unworkable. Every solution you give to each objection only exposes more problems. Entropy and the law of diminishing returns guarantees that 100% recyclable is impossible. Resources will either have to come from Earth, or found where every the colony happens to be.

Okay, you got me; it wouldn't be 100% recycled. Well, I guess the tiny fraction of a percent that goes into entropy will make this whole thing impossible.

Think about how long plastic, stainless steel or aluminum products such as cups and bottles would last for if people actually held onto them instead of throwing them all away. And for this thing to work, people will think twice or three times before throwing anything away. But I really expect that people will reproduce products they don't need anymore into other things.

I believe the international space station has a machine that turns urine into drinkable water. Other organic waste can be sold back to the colony or businesses in the colony as fertilizer to grow produce.

And textiles and similar materials seem to becoming much more durable. I bought two pairs of track pants about 6 years ago. One pair is Fila and the other is Reebok. I swear to you that I have worn them at least once a week for the past 6 years, and they both look exactly like the day I bough them. It's actually quite amazing.

This brings back Tonto's question, which you have yet to address. Why should we, the people left behind, support your space resort camp, since you have abandoned us to our fate, in favor of your space sanctuary.

It's business. A country or company may be willing to sell their resources to help build and maintain the colony.

 

[Unbeatable]

No, I am learning from all of this. If I had a trillion dollars in my pocket, I would still want to know what you all thought of this before I spent a penny of it.

You may be overestimating TFT. It's a shadow of its former self, and not really geared towards anything productive, IMO. Again, I recommend LessWrong, if you're not there already. Similarly intelligent/rational userbase, but with priorities similar to yours.

It makes sense for humans to attempt to colonize space as the rape of Earth eventually runs into diminishing returns. Given climate change and the like, it makes sense for humans to be working on this now, to some extent. And AFAIK, they are. It makes no sense at all for progressives to form ideologically pure space colonies to escape terran geopolitical strife.

Okay, so do you think they should stay and battle it out like what is happening now?

That's not what I mean. For one thing, it makes no sense to me for progressives to be the ones colonizing space. Progressives aren't defeatists or separatists, they're reformers. So in that light, this plan of yours actually makes less sense than your immortality schemes. Sure, space exploration is feasible, but "let's admit defeat, cut our losses, and abandon the rest of humanity" is not. Also, progressives don't have the power to colonize space. To get off the ground, something as resource-intensive as space colonization must be compatible with the interests of the corporations and governments and other players in the geopolitical conflict game. You can't pitch it as "opt out of the game". It has to be a continuation of the game, like the Space Race was.

I agree with those who say that the problem you're aiming at is a mere symptom of human nature, and transplanting a particular group of humans from a particular battle to a place where the fighting hasn't started yet is just procrastination, not a solution. That Simpsons clip is a perfect analogy to the way you come across here-- you see a complex, potentially intractable problem here, so you retreat into an impractical escapist fantasy that sidesteps it. That's why I question your ability to cope with the present day. You seem preoccupied with utopian futures that may never come. Hopefully, you're not pinning all of your hopes upon the idea that one of these schemes will pan out. Living a lie can be very rewarding, but false hope can be devastating to lose in the absence of a safety net.

"Battle it out" is going to happen sooner or later no matter where people go. We all carry the seed of geopolitical conflict within us. You would have it proliferate throughout the universe. If I was to suggest some sort of big project, it would be more study into the brain, and genes, and social science.

That's an insufficient incentive to motivate sane adults to leave the planet. The risk and expense of space colonization is greater than the risk and expense of continuing to fight over this mudball.

Expense is slowly becoming meaningless as automation becomes more advanced. We can build things cheaper than ever before, and this acceleration of cost effectiveness does not seem to be slowing down.

Yes, we can build things that build other things. So what? It's still cheaper to build things and use them here than it is to build things and send them to another planet, or go to another planet and mine the materials necessary to build things there. And that's not even getting into the sunk costs. How are you going to deal with the psychological resistance to abandoning current investments in the status quo?