Is the Bible a magic book?

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

When called to account for pretending to channel God, creos keep referring to a book. They call it God's word, even though it is a compilation of a lot of words, few of which are actually attributed by that book itself to a God.Then I am told that it is "infallible", which turns out to mean that if my plain reading of the infallible text conflicts with observable reality, either my observations of reality or my plain reading of the text must be flawed.

I've often hear this similar to you Elixir, even people from other religions debating with Christians. Personally I could never get why some people make those 'erroneous conceptual arguments' that tries to portray that confliction with human logic. The miracles that's written about of God doing things that's not logically possible, shouldn't therefore be possible etc..

Yes we'll, God isn't suppose to be logical! That's conceptually the logic.

How can this be? I suppose it's possible if the god who wrote that book took every measure to deceive me ( @Learner knows god and assures me he doesn't pull that crap) for purposes beyond my meager comprehension. but how is it possible to reconcile all the myriad differing interpretations of that book? There is either ONE correct interpretation (hear the chorus of "mine is the right one!") or the "true" meaning is highly variable, or ... the one 'possibility' that alleviates all this confusion, validates the infallibility of the book, and vindicates creos' version of reality. And that very distant IMO possibility is...

The Bible is a MAGIC book!
But... why can't creos just come out and say that?

As a Christian in the modern world. I would say in todays language... God is the ultimate scientist. It's written plain to see, magic is detested by God. In a manner of speaking, magic is merely the counterfeit, a very poor imitation to give the illusion one is creating objects into existence.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,
11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Why should God detest magic? If it existed then surely he is the one (allegedly) who created it.
Also, by your Bible quote, why does God speak against magic if it doesn't exist. BTW the quote makes it clear that magic does exist (at least in the minds of the people who made up those lines).

 

[bilby]

God isn't suppose to be logical! That's conceptually the logic.

We have a word for things that don't obey the logic inherent in reality. That word is "fictional".

Fictional characters can do anything their author can imagine. That's your God, right there.

 

[Learner]

When called to account for pretending to channel God, creos keep referring to a book. They call it God's word, even though it is a compilation of a lot of words, few of which are actually attributed by that book itself to a God.Then I am told that it is "infallible", which turns out to mean that if my plain reading of the infallible text conflicts with observable reality, either my observations of reality or my plain reading of the text must be flawed.

I've often hear this similar to you Elixir, even people from other religions debating with Christians. Personally I could never get why some people make those 'erroneous conceptual arguments' that tries to portray that confliction with human logic. The miracles that's written about of God doing things that's not logically possible, shouldn't therefore be possible etc..

Yes we'll, God isn't suppose to be logical! That's conceptually the logic.

How can this be? I suppose it's possible if the god who wrote that book took every measure to deceive me ( @Learner knows god and assures me he doesn't pull that crap) for purposes beyond my meager comprehension. but how is it possible to reconcile all the myriad differing interpretations of that book? There is either ONE correct interpretation (hear the chorus of "mine is the right one!") or the "true" meaning is highly variable, or ... the one 'possibility' that alleviates all this confusion, validates the infallibility of the book, and vindicates creos' version of reality. And that very distant IMO possibility is...

The Bible is a MAGIC book!
But... why can't creos just come out and say that?

As a Christian in the modern world. I would say in todays language... God is the ultimate scientist. It's written plain to see, magic is detested by God. In a manner of speaking, magic is merely the counterfeit, a very poor imitation to give the illusion one is creating objects into existence.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,
11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Why should God detest magic? If it existed then surely he is the one (allegedly) who created it.
Also, by your Bible quote, why does God speak against magic if it doesn't exist. BTW the quote makes it clear that magic does exist (at least in the minds of the people who made up those lines).

Magic in context is portrayed in the bible as a ,'conjuring of tricks' to fool people. They're not real miracle performers etc . No magician has ever create life as far as I know but it is understandable watching how dazzling and enticing it can be in the world today when one pulls a rabbit out of a hat etc.(the art of creating illusion is far more sophisticated and advanced nowadays of course).

 

[Learner]

God isn't suppose to be logical! That's conceptually the logic.

We have a word for things that don't obey the logic inherent in reality. That word is "fictional".

Fictional characters can do anything their author can imagine. That's your God, right there.

If God of the bible is true i.e. being the creator of life and maker of the governing physical laws. You will still post the exact same thing above... because it not something we can compare to, in our everyday logic use to the familiar.

 

[Elixir]

I've often hear this similar to you Elixir, even people from other religions debating with Christians.

I never claimed to be the first to notice the irrationality and inconsistency of superstitious religious types.
I often hear that their stupidity has been pointed out to them already, but they never address the actual falsities, inconsistencies and outright fabrications that are pointed out to them.
The screed above is no exception.

 

[bilby]

If God of the bible is true i.e. being the creator of life and maker of the governing physical laws

It's not true.

It's both very obviously made up storybook nonsense, and very obviously impossible i.e. incompatible with literally everything we know about reality.

For God of the bible to be true would require a collapse of the very ability for anyone to know anything about anything, and hence an inability to declare anything "true", including "God of the bible".

If anything is 'outside of logic', then it becomes impossible to know anything at all. Which could explain your posting history

it not something we can compare to, in our everyday logic use to the familiar.

How do you know this?

In order to know this, it would have to be untrue; If it were true, then you could not possibly know it.

You are literally caught in the very act of comparing God to the everyday and familiar use of logic, by declaring that such a comparison is impossible.

You are directly contradicting yourself.

You yourself use logic and reasoning to describe and discuss this God concept; Something you also declare to be impossible. Your position isn't just not true, or not reasonable; It's not even sane.

 

[Lion IRC]

If God of the bible is true i.e. being the creator of life and maker of the governing physical laws

It's not true....very obviously made up storybook nonsense, and very obviously impossible...

I see bilby is still fighting the good fight for Team Gainsayers.
...winning arguments by fiat.

 

[Elixir]

The idea that there’s an argument is all on the religious. Religions spew physicsl impossible falsehoods, selling them as facts (under the Miracle Brsnd) and denying scientific methodology in general as a valid means of converging on the truth.
On the fucking internet!!!!

 

[ideologyhunter]

The idea that there’s an argument is all on the religious. Religions spew physicsl impossible falsehoods, selling them as facts (under the Miracle Brsnd) and denying scientific methodology in general as a valid means of converging on the truth.
On the fucking internet!!!!

Strange...strange that you mention the internet, since I have come to the conclusion that...wait for it...the Worldwide Web issssss....Goddddd.

I. Job 28:24: For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

II. Just now I tested the omniscience of Worldwide Web (Jehovah.) I used search terms to which only a deity would have instant access. I tried 'Ed Wynn Show', and multiple shows appeared, some from the late 40s. I typed in 'Italian band aids' and found -- instantly -- a place to buy them. I typed 'termite stomach' and got a diagram of a termite gut. I typed 'clothes made of straw' and could now dress myself in straw, if I chose. I tried 'Yazoo City, Mississippi Burger King', and it is at 1430 Jerry Clower Boulevard, and I saw a picture of it. Finally I tried 'Averill Harriman's nose' and got an actual discussion of a figure in a newsreel who may or may not be Averill Harriman, based on an analysis of his earlobes and yes, 'nose structure'.

III. I do not know what Worldwide Web requires (besides, apparently, access to my credit card). I do not yet know how to live in the path that Worldwide Web has set for mankind. I do not know what afterlife Worldwide Web has prepared for me, but I intend to be one valuable byte in the data clouds of some future grand dispensation (I no longer know what the fuck I'm talking about, but it brings me great joy.)

IV. Every knee shall bow to Worldwide Web. Kneel, ye sons of multiple platforms across the heavens of interlocked data systems. Accept the power and glory of Worldwide Web. And his only son, the XBox.

V. You will need a good manual if the damn thing crashes.

 

[Learner]

I've often hear this similar to you Elixir, even people from other religions debating with Christians.

I never claimed to be the first to notice the irrationality and inconsistency of superstitious religious types.

Ok. I was anyway, alluding to the similar thought on the 3 in 1 God by the religious non-trinitarians taking to the notion that anything that's beyond the scope of our everyday human logic experience, things like these can't ever be true. Of course we're not on the same page - because we're talking from two different narrative perspectives.

The irony though with the non trinitarians as believers - making that argument that the 'Three persons in One' is not logical by using the 'materialistic' viewpoint i.e. describing the same sense of restrictive behaviour in nature to a non materialistic (spirit) realm. So in terms of the God understanding concept. That idea would be a conceptual contradiction.

I often hear that their stupidity has been pointed out to them already, but they never address the actual falsities, inconsistencies and outright fabrications that are pointed out to them.
The screed above is no exception.

A preference through the eyes of 'atheists' I often hear..using their own biblical narratives, often making arguments by reading out-of-context fabrications, suggesting the notion like "miracles and magic" are both meant to be portrayed as being the "same thing".
Each to his or her own I suppose.

 

[Learner]

If God of the bible is true i.e. being the creator of life and maker of the governing physical laws

It's not true.

It's both very obviously made up storybook nonsense, and very obviously impossible i.e. incompatible with literally everything we know about reality.

This 'obviousness' you speak of seems to escape the believers in the science community, but the God debate still goes on, which should be obvious

For God of the bible to be true would require a collapse of the very ability for anyone to know anything about anything, and hence an inability to declare anything "true", including "God of the bible".

If anything is 'outside of logic', then it becomes impossible to know anything at all. Which could explain your posting history

Yes I do get what you're saying...

"Logic according to the capacity of humans has no limits to comprehension". That's your posting history.

it not something we can compare to, in our everyday logic use to the familiar.

How do you know this?

In order to know this, it would have to be untrue; If it were true, then you could not possibly know it.

Because I would determine from the answers when I ask: Who here sees people raising from the dead everyday?

It's easily determined. That's the part I said is 'not familiar' to the logic shaped from our everyday knowledge experience throughout history.

You are literally caught in the very act of comparing God to the everyday and familiar use of logic, by declaring that such a comparison is impossible.

You are directly contradicting yourself.

As indicated above, I am saying.. you can't have comparisons even if the events were true back then.

You yourself use logic and reasoning to describe and discuss this God concept; Something you also declare to be impossible. Your position isn't just not true, or not reasonable; It's not even sane.

The concept being described was simply highlighting the matter of difference between biblical narrative perspectives.

In regards to logic (where humans are concerned), all I've been saying is man's comprehension wouldn't be near enough to determine through human logic, Gods level of comprehension. The concept is universally understood by Christians and non Christians.

 

[Politesse]

The idea that there’s an argument is all on the religious. Religions spew physicsl impossible falsehoods, selling them as facts (under the Miracle Brsnd) and denying scientific methodology in general as a valid means of converging on the truth.
On the fucking internet!!!!

Strange...strange that you mention the internet, since I have come to the conclusion that...wait for it...the Worldwide Web issssss....Goddddd.

I. Job 28:24: For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

II. Just now I tested the omniscience of Worldwide Web (Jehovah.) I used search terms to which only a deity would have instant access. I tried 'Ed Wynn Show', and multiple shows appeared, some from the late 40s. I typed in 'Italian band aids' and found -- instantly -- a place to buy them. I typed 'termite stomach' and got a diagram of a termite gut. I typed 'clothes made of straw' and could now dress myself in straw, if I chose. I tried 'Yazoo City, Mississippi Burger King', and it is at 1430 Jerry Clower Boulevard, and I saw a picture of it. Finally I tried 'Averill Harriman's nose' and got an actual discussion of a figure in a newsreel who may or may not be Averill Harriman, based on an analysis of his earlobes and yes, 'nose structure'.

III. I do not know what Worldwide Web requires (besides, apparently, access to my credit card). I do not yet know how to live in the path that Worldwide Web has set for mankind. I do not know what afterlife Worldwide Web has prepared for me, but I intend to be one valuable byte in the data clouds of some future grand dispensation (I no longer know what the fuck I'm talking about, but it brings me great joy.)

IV. Every knee shall bow to Worldwide Web. Kneel, ye sons of multiple platforms across the heavens of interlocked data systems. Accept the power and glory of Worldwide Web. And his only son, the XBox.

V. You will need a good manual if the damn thing crashes.

Technomancy, that's called.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

When called to account for pretending to channel God, creos keep referring to a book. They call it God's word, even though it is a compilation of a lot of words, few of which are actually attributed by that book itself to a God.Then I am told that it is "infallible", which turns out to mean that if my plain reading of the infallible text conflicts with observable reality, either my observations of reality or my plain reading of the text must be flawed.

I've often hear this similar to you Elixir, even people from other religions debating with Christians. Personally I could never get why some people make those 'erroneous conceptual arguments' that tries to portray that confliction with human logic. The miracles that's written about of God doing things that's not logically possible, shouldn't therefore be possible etc..

Yes we'll, God isn't suppose to be logical! That's conceptually the logic.

How can this be? I suppose it's possible if the god who wrote that book took every measure to deceive me ( @Learner knows god and assures me he doesn't pull that crap) for purposes beyond my meager comprehension. but how is it possible to reconcile all the myriad differing interpretations of that book? There is either ONE correct interpretation (hear the chorus of "mine is the right one!") or the "true" meaning is highly variable, or ... the one 'possibility' that alleviates all this confusion, validates the infallibility of the book, and vindicates creos' version of reality. And that very distant IMO possibility is...

The Bible is a MAGIC book!
But... why can't creos just come out and say that?

As a Christian in the modern world. I would say in todays language... God is the ultimate scientist. It's written plain to see, magic is detested by God. In a manner of speaking, magic is merely the counterfeit, a very poor imitation to give the illusion one is creating objects into existence.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,
11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Why should God detest magic? If it existed then surely he is the one (allegedly) who created it.
Also, by your Bible quote, why does God speak against magic if it doesn't exist. BTW the quote makes it clear that magic does exist (at least in the minds of the people who made up those lines).

Magic in context is portrayed in the bible as a ,'conjuring of tricks' to fool people. They're not real miracle performers etc . No magician has ever create life as far as I know but it is understandable watching how dazzling and enticing it can be in the world today when one pulls a rabbit out of a hat etc.(the art of creating illusion is far more sophisticated and advanced nowadays of course).

So, you're saying these people didn't do "real" magic but stage magic, and saying God even abhors the latter. So, what about when Aaron turned his staff into a snake? Was that abhorrent to God?

 

[Swammerdami]

Finally I tried 'Averill Harriman's nose' and got an actual discussion of a figure in a newsreel who may or may not be Averill Harriman, based on an analysis of his earlobes and yes, 'nose structure'.

I hope it's not irreverent to ask how you picked this search term. Inspired by your example I tried "Gina Lollobrigida's body" and got several pictures. (Inserting a "nude" into the search query yielded a very different set of pictures, though none were actually nude.)

While there I learned that Ms. Lollobrigida was once called "the most beautiful woman in the world." She died a year ago at age 95 soon after standing for election (as a Euroskeptic) to the Senate of the (Italian) Republic. At some point she was 5’ 5” and measured 36-23-35. To ensure we're comparing apples with apples, I tried "Gina Lollobrigida's nose." The top hit reported "She doesn't need any plastic surgery to look stunning."

Did Mr. Harriman consider plastic surgery?

 

[TomC]

In regards to logic (where humans are concerned), all I've been saying is man's comprehension wouldn't be near enough to determine through human logic, Gods level of comprehension. The concept is universally understood

This is the rub. Where I have a problem with religions and theists.

It's when people make assertions about what God is, wants, hates, intends, says, or any such things. It's based on assumption that they know important things about God. I not only don't believe that they do, I'm very confident that the reason that they do it is because they want to believe that they know better than the rest of us. So they ascribe their own personal opinions to God.
Tom

 

[ideologyhunter]

In regards to logic (where humans are concerned), all I've been saying is man's comprehension wouldn't be near enough to determine through human logic, Gods level of comprehension. The concept is universally understood

This is the rub. Where I have a problem with religions and theists.

It's when people make assertions about what God is, wants, hates, intends, says, or any such things. It's based on assumption that they know important things about God. I not only don't believe that they do, I'm very confident that the reason that they do it is because they want to believe that they know better than the rest of us. So they ascribe their own personal opinions to God.
Tom

That, plus the ultimate copout when, say, a 10-year-old dies suddenly and horribly: "We cannot understand God's purposes and mind, we can only trust that he loves us and has an ultimate plan for us which is good for us." They know all sorts of shit about God when they're telling about the blessings they perceive in their lives -- it's all attributable to a loving deity. But about the bad stuff that happens -- uh, we're just mortals, who are we to accuse or analyze our creator? I read an article or post somewhere by a freethinker who was traveling through a drought-stricken area that had just seen a good spate of rainfall. One of her friends told her, "We praised God when this started." She responded, "Did you curse him during the drought?"

 

[Elixir]

using their own biblical narratives

Now there's something wrong with "biblical narratives"? OMFG, you're in deep shit if that's the case!
Never mind - I know you're ust trying to level the playing field by reassigning definitions...
seems to be the only tactic in the superstition support group (religion) playbook.

 

[No Robots]

This is the rub. Where I have a problem with religions and theists.

It's when people make assertions about what God is, wants, hates, intends, says, or any such things. It's based on assumption that they know important things about God. I not only don't believe that they do, I'm very confident that the reason that they do it is because they want to believe that they know better than the rest of us. So they ascribe their own personal opinions to God.
Tom

Agreed that this is generally the case. However, there is this to consider:

Most remarkably, because Spinoza thought that the adequate knowledge of any object, and of Nature as a whole, involves a knowledge of God's essence and of how things relate to God and its attributes, he also had no scruples about claiming that we can, at least in principle, know God perfectly and adequately.

For Spinoza, to know Nature is to know God, and vice-versa. Some claim that Nature is strictly material, and thus, according to Spinoza, so is God. In this view, mind and soul, to the extent that they can be said to exist at all, are nothing more than epiphenomena of matter. We thus have an epistemic divide with the materialist monists on one side, and on the other the true monists, ie. those who hold that matter and spirit are co-equal attributes of Nature. For the latter, the route ahead for science is through the premise that everything is alive, everything thinks in its own way, and all things are manifestations of the infinite and eternal thought of the One.

eta: In terms of the OP, what this means is that the Bible is a proto-scientific work, it provides the intellectual foundation for a true positive science. The key idea for biology here is that all life forms originate from and express in their own way an aspect of the One. This outlook dismisses the drivers of evolution: mutation, competition, fitness, speciation. Instead it approaches biology from a holistic perspective wherein all life processes are part of the unfolding of the thought of the One.

 

[steve_bank]

Magic (supernatural) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Magic is an ancient practice rooted in rituals, spiritual divinations, and/or cultural lineage—with an intention to invoke, manipulate, or otherwise manifest supernatural forces, beings, or entities in the natural world.[1] It is a categorical yet often ambiguous term which has been used to refer to a wide variety of beliefs and practices, frequently considered separate from both religion and science.[2]

Connotations have varied from positive to negative at times throughout history,[3] Within Western culture, magic has been linked to ideas of the Other,[4] foreignness,[5] and primitivism;[6] indicating that it is "a powerful marker of cultural difference"[7] and likewise, a non-modern phenomenon.[8] During the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, Western intellectuals perceived the practice of magic to be a sign of a primitive mentality and also commonly attributed it to marginalised groups of people.[7]

Aleister Crowley (1875–1947), a British occultist, defined "magick" as "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will",[9] adding a 'k' to distinguish ceremonial or ritual magic from stage magic.[10] In modern occultism and neopagan religions, many self-described magicians and witches regularly practice ritual magic.[11] This view has been incorporated into chaos magic and the new religious movements of Thelema and Wicca.

Yes the bible is magic ion the traditional sense. Today certainly the Catholic mass. Bread and wine turns to body and blood of a dead person through incantations.

Crosses and medallions.

Parting a sea. Walking on water.

 

[ideologyhunter]

God (the Jehovah one) even participated in a magic show, in I Kings 18. It was a magicians' faceoff with Baal, who didn't earn any points at all, while God set some chunks of bull on fire (not a pun.) These days God doesn't stoop to tricks like that, and probably let his Int'l Brotherhood of Magicians membership lapse.