Is the "rich young man" a special case?

[Politesse]

Jesus never claimed to be a God, that was his followers after the fact.

That's interesting but I have a feeling many Christians would say that you can't be saved if you believe that Jesus was a mere man....

Then Jesus must be in Hell... in good company.

 

[Stephen T-B]

Was it not the claim of Jesus's followers that he was the messiah which got him into trouble with the Pharisees?
As far as I've been able to find out, the anticipated Jewish messiah is not supposed to be the son of god.

Two things seem to be going on here:
his followers who promoted Jesus as the messiah had their work cut out, and when it came to the gospel writers, they did their best to sell the idea by inventing details which accorded with Old Testament prophesies. "Look, this is what was prophesised and this is what happened - Jesus must be the Messiah!";
Paul promulgated the idea that Jesus was the son of god, and I think that among the gospel writers, only "John" adopts the doctrine.

In terms of the OP, from the word go, I expect, "Christians " have adopted the bits of Christ's teachings (along with the bits of the OT) which suit them. and ever since Rome made Christianity a tool of government, it's been commandeered by elites (and others) for whom the Sermon on the Mount and much else of Christ's teachings are the ravings of a dangerous radical.

 

[Thomas II]

Maybe the young man was asking how to attain "perfection"...and he seemed too arrogant, narcissistic, full of himself...Jesus told him to get rid of that attitude...

In Matthew 19:

Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”​

“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”​

“Which ones?” he inquired.​

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”​

“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”​

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”​

Using Mark 10:17-31as a point of reference...

​

"17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[a]”

20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth."

First there seems to be some "overacting" (dramatism) by this rich young man, with the "falling on his knees and calling Jesus "Good Teacher"...
He's buttering up Jesus...

Jesus basically returns it with a "cut the crap", "No one is good except God alone..."

Jesus is teaching him a lesson in humility..."one thing you lack (is humility) Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

And the guy walks away because he can't do that...

 

[Politesse]

Was it not the claim of Jesus's followers that he was the messiah which got him into trouble with the Pharisees?
As far as I've been able to find out, the anticipated Jewish messiah is not supposed to be the son of god.

Two things seem to be going on here:
his followers who promoted Jesus as the messiah had their work cut out, and when it came to the gospel writers, they did their best to sell the idea by inventing details which accorded with Old Testament prophesies. "Look, this is what was prophesised and this is what happened - Jesus must be the Messiah!";
Paul promulgated the idea that Jesus was the son of god, and I think that among the gospel writers, only "John" adopts the doctrine.

In terms of the OP, from the word go, I expect, "Christians " have adopted the bits of Christ's teachings (along with the bits of the OT) which suit them. and ever since Rome made Christianity a tool of government, it's been commandeered by elites (and others) for whom the Sermon on the Mount and much else of Christ's teachings are the ravings of a dangerous radical.

Even "son of God" does not mean "the same as God" in the sense that Trinitarian Christians mean it, at least not to a person of the 1st century. In Hebrew tradition, angels and kings bear that title occasionally, and of course the Hellenistic world was full of stories of demigods. If John believed that "Son of God" meant "a co-equal person with God", that makes John 1:12-13 a very interesting verse: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God..." Perhaps we're all aiming too low just trying to get in to Heaven.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Oh, and Jesus pronounced doom on people all the time including the wealthy--especially the wealthy. He really seemed to hate them probably out of jealousy.

Jealousy? What makes you think that?

Jesus obviously hated the wealthy, and as far as we know he was never clearly harmed by them as a group. Jesus is portrayed as being a peasant, so he probably envied them which would explain his spite for them.

Jesus' proclamations of "doom" weren't random -- they were aimed at those who exploit others for their own gain. The wealthy, the powerful, the pious, the hypocritical.

It's hard to say exactly who Jesus doomed, but I think it's safe to say that anybody who does not accept his authority or believe what he said is doomed.

People who abstain from wealth aren't miserable. People who are forced to struggle through poverty not of their own making or volition are miserable.

Yes, there's some truth to what you're saying here, but what's your point?

 

[Elixir]

Jesus obviously hated the wealthy, and as far as we know he was never clearly harmed by them as a group.

Well, there was that one day they were handing out thirty pieces of silver…

 

[Politesse]

Jesus obviously hated the wealthy, and as far as we know he was never clearly harmed by them as a group. Jesus is portrayed as being a peasant, so he probably envied them which would explain his spite for them.

You don't have to hate someone to give them good advice. Do you think he hated the young man in the story? It doesn't really sound like it. Why all the compliments if he hates him?

You keep saying "probably" rather than pointing to textual evidence to support your point.

It's hard to say exactly who Jesus doomed, but I think it's safe to say that anybody who does not accept his authority or believe what he said is doomed.

Well, you can speculate, or you can just read what's there. There's no "doom" in the New Testament, but he does often lament the fate of those who engage in folly, using the formula "Woe to you ____, who...", and it is generally those who accumulated privileges through deceit and hypocrisy who found themselves on the sharp end of his tongue.

Yes, there's some truth to what you're saying here, but what's your point?

I'm not Jesus, but I've studied his teachings for some time, and those are my conclusions. What more of a point does there need to be?

 

[Thomas II]

Jesus obviously hated the wealthy, and as far as we know he was never clearly harmed by them as a group. Jesus is portrayed as being a peasant, so he probably envied them which would explain his spite for them.

You don't have to hate someone to give them good advice. Do you think he hated the young man in the story? It doesn't really sound like it. Why all the compliments if he hates him?

You keep saying "probably" rather than pointing to textual evidence to support your point.

It's hard to say exactly who Jesus doomed, but I think it's safe to say that anybody who does not accept his authority or believe what he said is doomed.

Well, you can speculate, or you can just read what's there. There's no "doom" in the New Testament, but he does often lament the fate of those who engage in folly, using the formula "Woe to you ____, who...", and it is generally those who accumulated privileges through deceit and hypocrisy who found themselves on the sharp end of his tongue.

Yes, there's some truth to what you're saying here, but what's your point?

I'm not Jesus, but I've studied his teachings for some time, and those are my conclusions. What more of a point does there need to be?

Nobody is hating here!

Jesus had rich friends! (Among them Martha, Mary, Lazarus , Joseph of Arimathea)

It's not about what you have, its how it has you!

 

[steve_bank]

The passage sounds like the Buddhist give all away and take up your begging bowl. Predated Jesus by about 300 years. Jesus was always on the run on the outskirts. He is identified with John The Baptist who was as we say today, living off the land. Scrounging.

The similarities between Jesus and Buddha seem to be too numerous to be coincidence. There's not much at all in the Gospel story that's original or unique. You would think that God could come up with his own ideas.

There is a gospel reference to secret or esoteric teachings by Jesus.

In the gospels Jesus is preaching to poor Jews at the bottom. The gospel moral is believe in god and Jesus, suffer your troubles, and get an eternal heavenly reward. I believe James wrote the rich shall wither like a flower.

Jesus never explained why wealth and luxury is so evil now and so great in the future. Maybe he knew he couldn't actually provide heaven so he put it off to the indeterminate future. That way he could always tell people to wait just a bit longer.

The Jewish power elite who Jesus antagonized were analogous to the wealthy Christian religious elite today. The Billy Grams. The temple in Jerusalem was a profit makings corporation.

Whatever the Pharisees may have actually been like, Jesus apparently has done no better. His religious leadership never rid the world of fools and hypocrites, now has it?

Back in the 60s 70ssome in the the New Age crowd once clamed Jesus was in India for the missing years.

There is little if any attributed to Jesus that was new in Jewish traditions. Jesus as the sacrificial lamb. All major traditions have the dame foundations, like the Golden Rule in various forms.

The obvious problem is there are only a few words directly attributed to Jesus. The only coherent message is the Sermon On The Mount. That leaves an opening for Christians to invent and interpret theology, and us non believers to speculate on who he might have been. Contrasted to Buddha or Plato or Mohammed for which there are detailed writings.

We know there were multiple people claiming to be the messiah. Jews were nationalistic and looking for a leader to return them to power. The revolt in part led to the mass suicide at the Roman siege of Masada. Jewish zealots, analogous to religious zealots of today.

Jews considered any physical presentation of god serious blasphemy. Worse anyone who linked himself to god.

The Christian images of Jesus would be considered idolatry.

What exists in the NT points to a group of Jewish heteics following a relgious leader. They shared food. Met and read scripture and sang. A support group.

In the Lord's Prayer give us thsi dat our daily bread would not be said over a good Sunday dinner dinner spread, it was giving hanks for enough food for one more day.

I watched an archeology show that reconstructed Herod's dwellings. The difference between that and regular Jews in Palestine wolud have been stark. That there would be a wandering rabbi calling it out and others like him is to be expected.

Take away the supernatural the gopel writers aded and you ave one of many calling out the Jewish system.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Jesus obviously hated the wealthy, and as far as we know he was never clearly harmed by them as a group.

Well, there was that one day they were handing out thirty pieces of silver…

That was just one group of Jewish priests and not all the wealthy, we don't know how wealthy those priests were, and Jesus hated the wealthy long before his reputed crucifixion allegedly instigated by the priests...

...but aside from such minor facts, you could be right!

 

[DBT]

Rather than hate, it appears to be a case of where the man's love lies: a choice between the love of earthly wealth or love God.

 

[Elixir]

Rather than hate, it appears to be a case of where the man's love lies: a choice between the love of earthly wealth or love God.

I agree. Sounds like Jesus harbored more anger than hate. Thing is, you can only love wealth while alive on earth. You can love god for eternity after that, as you’re being tortured in hell.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Rather than hate, it appears to be a case of where the man's love lies: a choice between the love of earthly wealth or love God.

Like most Christians, I'll take the earthly wealth. And like Christians, I know that the earthly wealth is real. The pie in the sky Jesus preached is not so certain.

 

[Thomas II]

Rather than hate, it appears to be a case of where the man's love lies: a choice between the love of earthly wealth or love God.

I agree. Sounds like Jesus harbored more anger than hate. Thing is, you can only love wealth while alive on earth. You can love god for eternity after that, as you’re being tortured in hell.

He certainly did take it out on that little fig tree...

 

[1Heidegger1!]

For all the talk of being the suffering servant, meek and humble, what I see with many Christians is self righteousness and aggrandizement. I think Paul says it clearly:

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels—to say nothing of ordinary matters? (1 Cor 6:2-4)

 

[Bronzeage]

There is a cynical witticism used to divide the rich from the rest of us, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."

In the story of the rich young ruler(PYL), a man who has never had to ask the cost of anything he wanted, asks what eternal life will cost him.

Jesus replies, "How much have you got?"

 

[steve_bank]

My read of what is attributed to Jesus is pacifism and rejection of material things.

Trump is a number one example of what moral philosophies are about religious and secular. Citizen Kane.

Pursuit of greed, accumulation of things, and a fundamentally unhappy bitter man with no joy who takes his unhappiness out on others.

In today's speech it is not about being anti capitalism, it is about avoiding destructive behavior. God and Jesus is that thing on your shoulder whispering in your ear when you stray.

Buddhism's Middle Way. No need for ascetic self deprivation but avoid being attached to excesses.


Jesus of the gospels and the apostles were doom and gloomers end of the world believers. To them material things would have no meaning.

 

[Thomas II]

My read of what is attributed to Jesus is pacifism and rejection of material things.

Trump is a number one example of what moral philosophies are about religious and secular. Citizen Kane.

Pursuit of greed, accumulation of things, and a fundamentally unhappy bitter man with no joy who takes his unhappiness out on others.

In today's speech it is not about being anti capitalism, it is about avoiding destructive behavior. God and Jesus is that thing on your shoulder whispering in your ear when you stray.

Buddhism's Middle Way. No need for ascetic self deprivation but avoid being attached to excesses.


Jesus of the gospels and the apostles were doom and gloomers end of the world believers. To them material things would have no meaning.

Neti, neti...नेति नेति

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You don't have to hate someone to give them good advice.

That's a very astute observation. People have been known to give advice to other people they do not hate.

Do you think he hated the young man in the story? It doesn't really sound like it. Why all the compliments if he hates him?

I'm not sure who Jesus hated, but he followed up his encounter with the rich young man by telling his apostles that the rich young man would probably end up in hell. I'm sure that rich young man didn't feel loved by Jesus.

You keep saying "probably" rather than pointing to textual evidence to support your point.

Since the evidence for the Gospel story is so weak and ambiguous we are all forced to speculate about its historicity.

Well, you can speculate, or you can just read what's there. There's no "doom" in the New Testament...

1 Corinthians 2:6:

Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish.

That looks like doom in the New Testament to me.

...it is generally those who accumulated privileges through deceit and hypocrisy who found themselves on the sharp end of his tongue.

I don't recall reading that in the New Testament.

 

[steve_bank]

Jesus the prototypical evangelical Christian ranter. Believe or go to Hell.

Sounds odd, I did not think ancient Jews had as highly developed images of hell as Christians do. I thought Dante influenced the Christian images of hell.