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Is this a good aspect of Sharia law?

Yes, it was ambiguous.

How is it more just that some entity not connected to the crime does the punishing and not the victims of the crime?

Wouldn't it be more just to allow the victims to hand out the punishment if one thinks punishment serves some purpose?

Because it's a crime against society as a whole and the purpose is justice, not vengence.

No the purpose is revenge and punishment.

Justice it is not.

It is not just to make a criminal worse because you want to punish them.

That harms society.

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...The general idea is, a disinterested party can consider the evidence and make a better determination of what actually happened and who was at fault, if anyone...

Nobody says that should change. But once guilt is determined how is it more just that the government does the punishing and the punishing is not done by the victims?
 
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Nobody says that should change. But once guilt is determined how is it more just that the government does the punishing and the punishing is not done by the victims?

What are you proposing? If someone breaks into your car and is sentenced to 6 months in prison, do you want to lock him in your basement?
 
Nobody says that should change. But once guilt is determined how is it more just that the government does the punishing and the punishing is not done by the victims?

What are you proposing? If someone breaks into your car and is sentenced to 6 months in prison, do you want to lock him in your basement?

What good does locking the person up do?
 
What do you propose to do to the person who broke into your car?

That isn't an answer to my question.

I never said it did any good.

Let's keep things in order. You want the victim to punish the criminal. I asked how you propose to punish someone who has offended you. If you don't want to lock him up, I'm sure you have your reasons. What do you want to do to your criminal?
 
Because it's a crime against society as a whole and the purpose is justice, not vengence.

No the purpose is revenge and punishment.

Justice it is not.

It is not just to make a criminal worse because you want to punish them.

That harms society.

- - - Updated - - -

...The general idea is, a disinterested party can consider the evidence and make a better determination of what actually happened and who was at fault, if anyone...

Nobody says that should change. But once guilt is determined how is it more just that the government does the punishing and the punishing is not done by the victims?

Justice and revenge....two different things. A person commits a heinous offense...murder, mayhem, rape, torture, violent thievery,etc. etc. These acts all leave behind some sort of disorder that causes societal harm. In some instances, of heinous crime, there is no undoing the crime (restoring life or limbs, etc.), so justice which should be the amelioration of the effects of crime will not ever be perfect nor complete. Now arises the question of guilt and what it actually ought to mean. If we are absolutely certain a person committed one of these crimes we consider them guilty. So what should that designation mean relative to the crime? Should their guilt be a license to commit the same kind of bodily offense on the offender?

As I have stated earlier the more heinous crimes cannot be undone and frequently, even with lesser crimes, the criminal is unable to restore what he/she may have taken or destroyed. Nevertheless, there remains a torn social fabric and we should mainly concern ourselves with restoring what we can. That requires a cerebral discipline that is difficult to manage, but I feel necessary if we are to consider ourselves civilized. As much as is possible, the criminal needs to be employed in some sort of restorative activity and not tortured or killed if possible. If the criminal is extremely violent he needs to be sequestered from society.

There are people marching up and down the streets of some of our cities today with signs (black lives matter). The signs ought to read (lives matter). We are fragile beings, capable of fucking each other up in our emotional condition of feeling hurt, when what we need is to restore as much peace and tranquility as possible and to induce the criminal to either participate in this or suffer separation from society at large. Crimes, no matter how great they are, are always lapses in judgment and errors in behavior.

Now let us look at Sharia for what it is...a punitive system that cuts off hands, commits stonings for adultery, forgives raping of women from time to time, etc. The details of how it works are of no interest to me excepting seeing it eliminated. It is NOT JUSTICE.
 
On a practical level, I have my doubts about "let's streamline the process of killing criminals" arguments in general. I have this suspicion that it's like whack-a-mole-- simplify one part of the process and you end up complicating a different part, so that there isn't necessarily any net gain. In this case, I wonder if using cruder technology will open the door to more lawsuits. And in general, I worry that the endgame of "let's streamline the process of killing criminals" proponents is often an overall reduction in civil rights and legal recourse against state-sanctioned violence, something of which I certainly don't approve.

I think prisoners -- with qualifications -- should be offered the option of a painless death.

I think everybody -- with qualifications -- should be offered the option of a painless death.

One of my qualifications would be that this would not apply to prisoners, in part because a person who has just been sentenced to jail is unlikely to be in a rational frame of mind; and in part because the potential for abuse of the system to conceal murder (either for revenge, or for bureaucratic expediency) is too high.
 
You mean it should be. I notice you are in France (and a nice area of France). The US has a very punitive and revenge based system. We are just dressed up nicer than the middle ages.

The United States has a system based on repentance and reform. That is why our prisons are called penitentiaries. Unfortunately, the model upon which we base our system does not work, but we haven't found anything better.

Perhaps if you were to, just once in a while, glance at the 95% of the world population that is not a part of the United States, you would have better luck finding something better.

The Scandinavian nations seem to have a pretty effective system; It is not perfect, but it makes the US system look like the Spanish Inquisition - brutal, ineffective and based on nonsensical assumptions.
 
You have a punitive and revenge based system instead of justice. That it is refered to as a 'justice' system is either a simple error, an attempt at propaganda, or some kind of twisted joke - or perhaps all three.

Could you elaborate on that? If the alternative is to give a slap on the wrist and let everyone go, I'd prefer a system where criminal offenders are punished.

...and that's the entire problem summed up very neatly right there.

While the consensus in the USA is that the only possible alternative to brutality is 'to give a slap on the wrist and let everyone go', there is not even the possibility for debate.

How about, instead of a system where criminal offenders are punished, you have a system where criminal offenders are reformed, rehabilitated, and released to become productive citizens? This has been demonstrated to work in various parts of the world; The Norwegian and Icelandic systems seem to do a fair job of it, and there is a scheme I came across at Darwin jail in the Northern Territory that also has shown some excellent results.

The problem with the US attitude is that there is a cultural assumption that 'good' and 'bad' are appropriate categories to describe human beings; and that these are pretty well immutable - a person chooses the light or the dark side, and is there for life. The system is set up to detect which citizens are flirting with the 'bad' side of the line, and to punish those people severely, in the hope of shocking them back into being 'good'; once a person has strayed too far into evil, they are irredeemable, and need long term incarceration, lest their evil infect others. As Marge Simpson said of Nelson Munce, "He is a very lonely and troubled little boy, and he needs to be shunned".

If, rather than 'good' vs 'bad', we view people as 'fortunate' vs 'unfortunate', and we act to redress the misfortunes of those who are unlucky, rather than making outlaws of them, we see much better outcomes. Sure, there are some people who are irredeemably 'bad'; but such cases are very, very rare, and are better treated as psychiatric, rather than criminal, cases.

Of course, the fact that most crime is the result of misfortune flies in the face of the American myth of self-sufficiency, and is terrifying to those who have a cultural disposition to the 'good/bad' dichotomy. If the difference between me, as a good person, and the guy who stole my wallet, as a bad person, is purely circumstantial, then I am not inherently any better than he is. That truth is so distasteful that most cannot bring themselves to even consider it.

Personally, I blame Christianity. The story of the battle between good and evil is so ingrained in Christianity that Christians cannot think outside that particular box - and Christianity is so dominant in the USA that this way of thinking is unavoidable to Americans, to the point where they can't imagine that it is not universal amongst all of humanity.

Every part of US culture, from the Lone Ranger and Superman, to TFT posts by Loren Pechtel, has, at its core, the presumption that 'good' and 'evil' are real and significant categories into which people can be placed. This error is the source of much unpleasantness, and nowhere is this more apparent than in the US 'justice' system.
 
The United States has a system based on repentance and reform. That is why our prisons are called penitentiaries. Unfortunately, the model upon which we base our system does not work, but we haven't found anything better.

Perhaps if you were to, just once in a while, glance at the 95% of the world population that is not a part of the United States, you would have better luck finding something better.

The Scandinavian nations seem to have a pretty effective system; It is not perfect, but it makes the US system look like the Spanish Inquisition - brutal, ineffective and based on nonsensical assumptions.

We have too many guns for the Scandinavian type system to work here.
 
If the difference between me, as a good person, and the guy who stole my wallet, as a bad person, is purely circumstantial, then I am not inherently any better than he is. That truth is so distasteful that most cannot bring themselves to even consider it.

Personally, I blame Christianity. The story of the battle between good and evil is so ingrained in Christianity that Christians cannot think outside that particular box - and Christianity is so dominant in the USA that this way of thinking is unavoidable to Americans, to the point where they can't imagine that it is not universal amongst all of humanity.

Actually, "I am not inherently any better than he is" used to be a core principle of Christianity. It's too bad the american flavor of Christianity has chucked it.
 
They are sent there for arbitrary amounts of time and many are made worse by prison.

That isn't a system based on harm reduction. It is a system based on punishment and revenge. It is primitive. The same kind of justice that existed thousands of years ago.

Your alternative to the placing the criminal convicted of aggravated rape in prison is?

The idea that it is reasonable to discuss 'aggravated rape' as though that were a typical reason for someone to be in prison is a major part of the problem. The typical prisoner in a US Federal Prison was convicted of possession of soft drugs. To cast that person as being in the same category as a violent rapist is batshit crazy.

According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 48.7% of prisoners in their system are drug offenders. Prisoners convicted of 'Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses' amount to less than 3% of the federal prison population. Add in 'Robbery' and 'Sex Offenses', and the total in those categories is 13.4% of the population of the federal jails. perhaps it would be best not to worry about possibly releasing the 13.4% of violent offenders until we have found better solutions for the other 86%. :confused2:

The State figures are harder to pin down that for the Feds, but I found a report for 2013 from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, which indicates that violent offenders are a larger proportion of the State system than they are in the Federal system (perhaps unsurprisingly given the huge bias created by the federal system's large number of drug offenders); nevertheless, the categories that might include our putative 'aggravated rape' totals only about 11% of inmates across both systems (and obviously not all cases of 'Rape/sexual assault' are 'Aggravated rape'). Adding the figures for both State and federal prisoners from this report, we find 721,500 inmates convicted of violent crimes, in a total prison population of 1,452,474, implying that just over half of all prisoners in the USA are there for non-violent offences. Perhaps we could start with the 730,000 odd non-violent offenders, and bypass your concern about the release of violent criminals until we see how that works out? Even if we assume that all 'Rape/sexual assault' convicts need to remain incarcerated, we can let about 89% of the prisoners go while maintaining that position.

So, your alternative to placing the criminal convicted of having a bag of weed in his pants pocket is?

Or do you think that punitive incarceration is the only language 'these people' understand?
 
Perhaps if you were to, just once in a while, glance at the 95% of the world population that is not a part of the United States, you would have better luck finding something better.

The Scandinavian nations seem to have a pretty effective system; It is not perfect, but it makes the US system look like the Spanish Inquisition - brutal, ineffective and based on nonsensical assumptions.

We have too many guns for the Scandinavian type system to work here.

Really?

Which aspect of the Scandinavian system do you think becomes unworkable in a society where there are lots of guns?
 
If the difference between me, as a good person, and the guy who stole my wallet, as a bad person, is purely circumstantial, then I am not inherently any better than he is. That truth is so distasteful that most cannot bring themselves to even consider it.

Personally, I blame Christianity. The story of the battle between good and evil is so ingrained in Christianity that Christians cannot think outside that particular box - and Christianity is so dominant in the USA that this way of thinking is unavoidable to Americans, to the point where they can't imagine that it is not universal amongst all of humanity.

Actually, "I am not inherently any better than he is" used to be a core principle of Christianity. It's too bad the american flavor of Christianity has chucked it.

Actually, "I am not inherently any better than he is" used to be claimed as a core principle of Christianity. But as hypocrisy is also a core trait of Christianity, this need not trouble the Christians, who can (and do) choose to apply that principle only when it suits them. It is one thing to declare to the congregation that you are a miserable sinner in need of repentance; It is quite another to accept that if your family was starving, you would become a thief just as readily as the next man.
 
Your alternative to the placing the criminal convicted of aggravated rape in prison is?

The idea that it is reasonable to discuss 'aggravated rape' as though that were a typical reason for someone to be in prison is a major part of the problem. The typical prisoner in a US Federal Prison was convicted of possession of soft drugs. To cast that person as being in the same category as a violent rapist is batshit crazy.

According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 48.7% of prisoners in their system are drug offenders. Prisoners convicted of 'Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses' amount to less than 3% of the federal prison population. Add in 'Robbery' and 'Sex Offenses', and the total in those categories is 13.4% of the population of the federal jails. perhaps it would be best not to worry about possibly releasing the 13.4% of violent offenders until we have found better solutions for the other 86%. :confused2:

The State figures are harder to pin down that for the Feds, but I found a report for 2013 from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, which indicates that violent offenders are a larger proportion of the State system than they are in the Federal system (perhaps unsurprisingly given the huge bias created by the federal system's large number of drug offenders); nevertheless, the categories that might include our putative 'aggravated rape' totals only about 11% of inmates across both systems (and obviously not all cases of 'Rape/sexual assault' are 'Aggravated rape'). Adding the figures for both State and federal prisoners from this report, we find 721,500 inmates convicted of violent crimes, in a total prison population of 1,452,474, implying that just over half of all prisoners in the USA are there for non-violent offences. Perhaps we could start with the 730,000 odd non-violent offenders, and bypass your concern about the release of violent criminals until we see how that works out? Even if we assume that all 'Rape/sexual assault' convicts need to remain incarcerated, we can let about 89% of the prisoners go while maintaining that position.

So, your alternative to placing the criminal convicted of having a bag of weed in his pants pocket is?

Or do you think that punitive incarceration is the only language 'these people' understand?

So your real issue is with punishment for non-violent offenders; you're not saying its was a mistake not to attempt to rehabilitate Ted Bundy and release him back into society? I generally agree that non-violent offenses should be handled different than those of true/traditional/common law crime. I voted to decriminalized pot in Washington state. :wave2: But as to murders, rapist, those commit assault and battery, larceny, arson, etc., I've little sympathy. But if you want to give them a pat on the hand and extract a promise that they'll not do it again, then lets make sure we release them into your neighborhood.
 
The idea that it is reasonable to discuss 'aggravated rape' as though that were a typical reason for someone to be in prison is a major part of the problem. The typical prisoner in a US Federal Prison was convicted of possession of soft drugs. To cast that person as being in the same category as a violent rapist is batshit crazy.

According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 48.7% of prisoners in their system are drug offenders. Prisoners convicted of 'Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses' amount to less than 3% of the federal prison population. Add in 'Robbery' and 'Sex Offenses', and the total in those categories is 13.4% of the population of the federal jails. perhaps it would be best not to worry about possibly releasing the 13.4% of violent offenders until we have found better solutions for the other 86%. :confused2:

The State figures are harder to pin down that for the Feds, but I found a report for 2013 from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, which indicates that violent offenders are a larger proportion of the State system than they are in the Federal system (perhaps unsurprisingly given the huge bias created by the federal system's large number of drug offenders); nevertheless, the categories that might include our putative 'aggravated rape' totals only about 11% of inmates across both systems (and obviously not all cases of 'Rape/sexual assault' are 'Aggravated rape'). Adding the figures for both State and federal prisoners from this report, we find 721,500 inmates convicted of violent crimes, in a total prison population of 1,452,474, implying that just over half of all prisoners in the USA are there for non-violent offences. Perhaps we could start with the 730,000 odd non-violent offenders, and bypass your concern about the release of violent criminals until we see how that works out? Even if we assume that all 'Rape/sexual assault' convicts need to remain incarcerated, we can let about 89% of the prisoners go while maintaining that position.

So, your alternative to placing the criminal convicted of having a bag of weed in his pants pocket is?

Or do you think that punitive incarceration is the only language 'these people' understand?

So your real issue is with punishment for non-violent offenders; you're not saying its was a mistake not to attempt to rehabilitate Ted Bundy and release him back into society? I generally agree that non-violent offenses should be handled different than those of true/traditional/common law crime. I voted to decriminalized pot in Washington state. :wave2: But as to murders, rapist, those commit assault and battery, larceny, arson, etc., I've little sympathy. But if you want to give them a pat on the hand and extract a promise that they'll not do it again, then lets make sure we release them into your neighborhood.

I applaud your ability to completely ignore my point; I am sure that this ability brings you great comfort and certainty in your life. :rolleyesa:

Still, I can't say I didn't see it coming.

While the consensus in the USA is that the only possible alternative to brutality is 'to give a slap on the wrist and let everyone go', there is not even the possibility for debate.
 
We have too many guns for the Scandinavian type system to work here.

Really?

Which aspect of the Scandinavian system do you think becomes unworkable in a society where there are lots of guns?

We have a lot of very violent people who are violent long before they ever see a prison cell. The Scandinavian system might be effective if we could find a way to emulate Scandinavian society in general, but simply building a Scandinavian prison alone, would not help much.

Our over abundance of guns allows young men to become threats to society at a very young age and by the time they attract the attention of the system, we do not have the resources to help them and warehousing them in prisons is our only viable option.
 
I applaud your ability to completely ignore my point; I am sure that this ability brings you great comfort and certainty in your life. :rolleyesa:

Still, I can't say I didn't see it coming.

You write about how we should address non-violent offenders, I agree with you in part, and you pooh-pooh me. Oh the pooh-pooh. :sad:
 
Actually, "I am not inherently any better than he is" used to be claimed as a core principle of Christianity.

No, it's still there. It's just being ignored.

But as hypocrisy is also a core trait of Christianity, this need not trouble the Christians, who can (and do) choose to apply that principle only when it suits them.

Sure, thus illustrating that we really are in the same boat with everyone else whether we want to admit to it or not.
 
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