Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government

[Loren Pechtel]

The refutation of iolo's ridiculous (and frankly antisemitic) claims is my argument.


BS, and you know it. When a Palestinian terrorist is killed, that is not murder. It is self-defense.

We're talking about the murder of innocent civilians. The sadistic torture of innocents.

Something the Palestinians revel in. Kill Jewish children and you're likely to get a street or the like named after you.

Palestinians live in a constant state of terrorism against them.

Correct--from Hamas.

A sadistic terrorist state that is slowly stealing all their land is oppressing them. They live in a state of deliberate oppression.

Who seizes the most Palestinian land? Hamas.

They live in the immoral apartheid state of Israel.

Gaza is specifically not part of Israel and that's where the worst problem by far is.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

View attachment 11729

View attachment 11730

Palestinian toddler was burned to death in his West Bank home in Molotov cocktail attack

I guess it's okay when Israelis do it.

Good, now you'll put the blame were it belongs.

That baby wasn't burnt by Jews, but by Palestinians. That was not the first firebomb attack on that family and nobody claimed the others were anything but an internal matter.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel is not a Semite. It is a brutal modern apartheid state.

This board speaks English. If you're unwilling to do so, do everyone a favor and leave.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And what is your evidence they are impossible to obtain? Is that truth or just part of the propaganda?

Remember how after the civil war it was next to impossible for blacks to vote in the south? Practically speaking, this is the same as it being completely impossible and the only people interested in quibbling over the word 'impossible' are people looking for a pedantic leg to stand on.

Tell me, LP. Is stealing okay? Is it okay to take other people's property from them?

In other words, you have no evidence.

 

[LordKiran]

Remember how after the civil war it was next to impossible for blacks to vote in the south? Practically speaking, this is the same as it being completely impossible and the only people interested in quibbling over the word 'impossible' are people looking for a pedantic leg to stand on.

Tell me, LP. Is stealing okay? Is it okay to take other people's property from them?

In other words, you have no evidence.

Objections based on pedantry are beneath you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Related article:

https://medium.com/@thepalestinepro...leaving-30-palestinians-homeless-5da7081b1ac3

Complaining about the Israeli demolition of a building.

The third time they demolished the building.

If your structure is torn down as illegal you just go build it again? And again?

This is about propaganda.

- - - Updated - - -

In other words, you have no evidence.

Objections based on pedantry are beneath you.

In other words, you don't like it when I called you out on a lack of evidence.

 

[LordKiran]

In other words, you don't like it when I called you out on a lack of evidence.

That's rich coming from you. At any rate you didn't call me out on anything. I called you out on your pedantry though. No answer for that?

 

[ZiprHead]

Interesting list, but it doesn't appear to have anything to do with Loren's allegations about Palestinians building on land they don't own and his excuses for Israelis stealing donated solar panels from impoverished villagers living outside of Israel.

You tell me what country this travel poster was promoting:

Map of Palestine from 1881

 

[Arctish]

The refutation of iolo's ridiculous (and frankly antisemitic) claims is my argument.

Palestinians by the scores have been murdered, tortured, kidnapped, denied their rights, had their economy and futures destroyed for decades.

BS, and you know it. When a Palestinian terrorist is killed, that is not murder. It is self-defense.
And bogus claims of torture are just that, bogus. For example, one of the organizers of the Day Withot Women (a sort of Pussy Hat March MkII), Rasmea Odeh was a Palestinian terrorist who feebly claimed she was "tortured" (without any evidence) to avoid deportation once US authorities (20 years late btw) realized they did not vet her and allowed her to immigrate and even fraudulently obtain citizenship.
The Palestinian Woman Convicted of Terror Casting a Shadow Over 'Day Without Women'
It's easy for terrorists to claim "torture" but that doesn't mean its true.

That Palestinians live a long time in the face of this insane and nonstop oppression is not any possible excuse for it.

Is is certainly an refutation of iolo's antisemitic claims that Israel operates "death camps" for Palestinians. Death camps are incompatible with extremely low death rates and exploding (no pun intended) population.

Derec, you have an impressive ability to locate somewhat obscure information. This discussion is about the solar panels donated by the Dutch government and erected in Jubbet al-Dhib. Any information you can find that would shed some light on the establishment of Jubbet al-Dhib in 1929 and its borders as recognized by the British government would be much appreciated.

 

[bilby]

I love Israel-Palestine threads at TF. It is easy to skip them... except to stop by and post needless commentary about how useless it is to look at the Israel-Palestine threads at TF.

...

Just six of the fifty posts in this thread (including this one) have been from people located outside the USA. 88% of responses are from Americans.

Israel/Palestine is almost exclusively a US issue - nobody in the rest of the world (apart from the region itself) gives a rat's arse about this petty local conflict.

We have almost no threads (certainly not high posting volume and oft-repeated threads) about the Yemeni Civil War, or about the Conflict in Sudan/South Sudan, the Somali Civil War, the Turkish/Kurdish conflict, or the Mexican Drug War. Even the Syrian Civil War gets comparatively little coverage.

According to Wiki, there are 15 ongoing conflicts worldwide today that have higher numbers of casualties; But America cares about this one. And this board discusses it endlessly. WHY??

 

[LordKiran]

I love Israel-Palestine threads at TF. It is easy to skip them... except to stop by and post needless commentary about how useless it is to look at the Israel-Palestine threads at TF.

...

6/50 posts in this thread (including this one) have been from people located outside the USA.

Israel/Palestine is almost exclusively a US issue - nobody in the rest of the world (apart from the region itself) gives a rat's arse about this petty local conflict.

We have no threads (certainly not high posting volume and oft-repeated threads) about the Yemeni Civil War, or about the Conflict in Sudan/South Sudan, the Somali Civil War, the Turkish/Kurdish conflict, or the Mexican Drug War. Even the Syrian Civil War gets comparatively little coverage.

According to Wiki, there are 15 ongoing conflicts worldwide today that have higher numbers of casualties; But America cares about this one. And this board discusses it endlessly. WHY??

My interest in the conflict in Palestine stems mostly from my distrust of the Israeli government and my desire to not be pulled into a conflict resulting from their actions. So there's my excuse.

 

[bilby]

6/50 posts in this thread (including this one) have been from people located outside the USA.

Israel/Palestine is almost exclusively a US issue - nobody in the rest of the world (apart from the region itself) gives a rat's arse about this petty local conflict.

We have no threads (certainly not high posting volume and oft-repeated threads) about the Yemeni Civil War, or about the Conflict in Sudan/South Sudan, the Somali Civil War, the Turkish/Kurdish conflict, or the Mexican Drug War. Even the Syrian Civil War gets comparatively little coverage.

According to Wiki, there are 15 ongoing conflicts worldwide today that have higher numbers of casualties; But America cares about this one. And this board discusses it endlessly. WHY??

My interest in the conflict in Palestine stems mostly from my distrust of the Israeli government and my desire to not be pulled into a conflict resulting from their actions. So there's my excuse.

How do you feel about the Syrian, Turkish, Mexican, Sudanese and Yemeni governments? The US military is already in Syria; Turkey is a NATO member; Mexico borders the US and has very close security and trading ties to her; The US made military strikes on Sudan after 9/11; and the US recently sold warplanes and other weapons to Saudi Arabia who are directly involved in the Yemeni conflict.

Sorry, but your excuse doesn't wash - You have not given any reason to care more about Israel/Palestine than about any of these (more bloody) conflicts. Untrustworthy governments and US involvement in their conflicts are common to most of these, and yet Israel/Palestine gets thread after thread, and post after post about it, while we have virtual silence on the rest.

My guess is that your interest in the conflict in Palestine stems mostly from the huge amount of coverage that conflict gets in the US media. Which leads me to ask the same question; Why does America care so much about this particular conflict?

Even the British, who were the former rulers of the region under the League of Nations Mandate, don't care much. Why are Americans obsessed by it?

 

[Arctish]

What makes you say the people of Jubbet al-Dhib don't own the land? Their town was founded while the British were still in charge. Did someone forget to file the proper paperwork and if so, how in the heck did you find out about it?

Read again. "Or with other major irregularities."

Are you acknowledging that the village of Jubbet al-Dhib built its solar array on property owned by the village and its inhabitants?

Such as not bothering with getting building permits.

Or in another such case, keeping rebuilding a camp on an archeological site where nobody is permitted to build.

This is pure anti-Israel propaganda funded by fools in the EU.

If the case you're referencing is the one I'm thinking of, Israel destroyed Palestinian property in the West Bank, i.e. outside Israel's internationally recognized 1948 borders, outside the de facto 1967 borders, and outside the walls around the settlements, and now insists it's the only authority that can permit rebuilding. Israel's destruction of the homes and other buildings was entirely illegal. It's control over the property is the result of strong-arm theft. But you think it makes a good argument for the theft of donated solar panels from an impoverished community of non-Israelis living outside of Israel.

I'm not surprised, and I don't expect you to change your mind, but I still feel compelled to point out how well your arguments would have suited Cossacks wanting to justify the pogroms.

 

[LordKiran]

My interest in the conflict in Palestine stems mostly from my distrust of the Israeli government and my desire to not be pulled into a conflict resulting from their actions. So there's my excuse.

How do you feel about the Syrian, Turkish, Mexican, Sudanese and Yemeni governments? The US military is already in Syria; Turkey is a NATO member; Mexico borders the US and has very close security and trading ties to her; The US made military strikes on Sudan after 9/11; and the US recently sold warplanes and other weapons to Saudi Arabia who are directly involved in the Yemeni conflict.

Sorry, but your excuse doesn't wash - You have not given any reason to care more about Israel/Palestine than about any of these (more bloody) conflicts. Untrustworthy governments and US involvement in their conflicts are common to most of these, and yet Israel/Palestine gets thread after thread, and post after post about it, while we have virtual silence on the rest.

My guess is that your interest in the conflict in Palestine stems mostly from the huge amount of coverage that conflict gets in the US media. Which leads me to ask the same question; Why does America care so much about this particular conflict?

Even the British, who were the former rulers of the region under the League of Nations Mandate, don't care much. Why are Americans obsessed by it?

Speaking of whataboutism...

I can go over my particular feelings toward our individual allies if you like, but that's not what this thread is about, nor is it representative of what the post mine is in response to is about. Also, I'd rather go over specifics related to Israel.

My concern with Israel stems from industrial and military espionage past and present.

From the pressure they exert on our universities to push a pro-israeli position onto staff and students.

From the horrible behavior of the government and it's people related to the Palestinians. I expect better from a country we call our ally.

They are openly provocative towards their immediate neighbors, raising the likelihood of instigating a regional war.

They detract from our international relations and our reputation at large as being the supposed "Champions of democracy"

All we seem to get for any of this is information and that guaranteed vote in the UN...

 

[bilby]

How do you feel about the Syrian, Turkish, Mexican, Sudanese and Yemeni governments? The US military is already in Syria; Turkey is a NATO member; Mexico borders the US and has very close security and trading ties to her; The US made military strikes on Sudan after 9/11; and the US recently sold warplanes and other weapons to Saudi Arabia who are directly involved in the Yemeni conflict.

Sorry, but your excuse doesn't wash - You have not given any reason to care more about Israel/Palestine than about any of these (more bloody) conflicts. Untrustworthy governments and US involvement in their conflicts are common to most of these, and yet Israel/Palestine gets thread after thread, and post after post about it, while we have virtual silence on the rest.

My guess is that your interest in the conflict in Palestine stems mostly from the huge amount of coverage that conflict gets in the US media. Which leads me to ask the same question; Why does America care so much about this particular conflict?

Even the British, who were the former rulers of the region under the League of Nations Mandate, don't care much. Why are Americans obsessed by it?

Speaking of whataboutism...

I can go over my particular feelings toward our individual allies if you like, but that's not what this thread is about, nor is it representative of what the post mine is in response to is about. Also, I'd rather go over specifics related to Israel.

My concern with Israel stems from industrial and military espionage past and present.

From the pressure they exert on our universities to push a pro-israeli position onto staff and students.

From the horrible behavior of the government and it's people related to the Palestinians. I expect better from a country we call our ally.

They are openly provocative towards their immediate neighbors, raising the likelihood of instigating a regional war.

They detract from our international relations and our reputation at large as being the supposed "Champions of democracy"

All we seem to get for any of this is information and that guaranteed vote in the UN...

I am not engaged in whataboutism; quite the reverse. There's really no need for the average American not employed by the State Department or the Military to give a flying fuck about Syria, Turkey, Mexico, Sudan or Yemen. Nor is there any need to give a flying fuck about Israel/Palestine.

And yet we have thread after thread, and post after post about the minutiae of the latest stupidity and childishness on both sides in that particular conflict - and the VAST majority of posters who express an interest in this trivial crap are from the USA.

I just don't get why this one pissy little conflict is considered so fucking important by people who live on the opposite side of the planet from it.

Israel isn't unique in conducting espionage (military or industrial) against the USA. Nor is Israel exerting more pressure on US universities than other foreign nations do. They behave like shit - but that's a point of similarity with other unimportant nations, not a point of difference.

My question is not 'Why don't Americans care more about all these other conflicts?'; It is 'Why do Americans care about this conflict?'. There's no rhyme nor reason for it. Let it go, for fuck's sake.

 

[LordKiran]

Speaking of whataboutism...

I can go over my particular feelings toward our individual allies if you like, but that's not what this thread is about, nor is it representative of what the post mine is in response to is about. Also, I'd rather go over specifics related to Israel.

My concern with Israel stems from industrial and military espionage past and present.

From the pressure they exert on our universities to push a pro-israeli position onto staff and students.

From the horrible behavior of the government and it's people related to the Palestinians. I expect better from a country we call our ally.

They are openly provocative towards their immediate neighbors, raising the likelihood of instigating a regional war.

They detract from our international relations and our reputation at large as being the supposed "Champions of democracy"

All we seem to get for any of this is information and that guaranteed vote in the UN...

I am not engaged in whataboutism; quite the reverse. There's really no need for the average American not employed by the State Department or the Military to give a flying fuck about Syria, Turkey, Mexico, Sudan or Yemen. Nor is there any need to give a flying fuck about Israel/Palestine.

And yet we have thread after thread, and post after post about the minutiae of the latest stupidity and childishness on both sides in that particular conflict - and the VAST majority of posters who express an interest in this trivial crap are from the USA.

I just don't get why this one pissy little conflict is considered so fucking important by people who live on the opposite side of the planet from it.

Israel isn't unique in conducting espionage (military or industrial) against the USA. Nor is Israel exerting more pressure on US universities than other foreign nations do. They behave like shit - but that's a point of similarity with other unimportant nations, not a point of difference.

My question is not 'Why don't Americans care more about all these other conflicts?'; It is 'Why do Americans care about this conflict?'. There's no rhyme nor reason for it. Let it go, for fuck's sake.

I think the reasons I gave are all pretty valid.

I can give reasons for getting involved in armed conflict in Mexico and why that is immediately concerning to me. I can't do the same with Israel. If you believe differently then by all means, but otherwise I think I have plenty reason to want my country not associated with that state.

 

[bilby]

I am not engaged in whataboutism; quite the reverse. There's really no need for the average American not employed by the State Department or the Military to give a flying fuck about Syria, Turkey, Mexico, Sudan or Yemen. Nor is there any need to give a flying fuck about Israel/Palestine.

And yet we have thread after thread, and post after post about the minutiae of the latest stupidity and childishness on both sides in that particular conflict - and the VAST majority of posters who express an interest in this trivial crap are from the USA.

I just don't get why this one pissy little conflict is considered so fucking important by people who live on the opposite side of the planet from it.

Israel isn't unique in conducting espionage (military or industrial) against the USA. Nor is Israel exerting more pressure on US universities than other foreign nations do. They behave like shit - but that's a point of similarity with other unimportant nations, not a point of difference.

My question is not 'Why don't Americans care more about all these other conflicts?'; It is 'Why do Americans care about this conflict?'. There's no rhyme nor reason for it. Let it go, for fuck's sake.

I think the reasons I gave are all pretty valid.

I can give reasons for getting involved in armed conflict in Mexico and why that is immediately concerning to me. I can't do the same with Israel. If you believe differently then by all means, but otherwise I think I have plenty reason to want my country not associated with that state.

Which is fine; But my question is not about you specifically, but rather about this Discussion Board's (and by extension, America's) obsession with this one little conflict above all others.

If an Israeli soldier breaks wind*, or an Palestinian spills his coffee**, it's massive news, and someone here starts a thread about it (wherein the usual suspects make the usual noises). I just don't get it. This stuff is important to the people on the ground, but it's not notably newsworthy to Americans in general - who seem perfectly adept at ignoring the minutiae of other local conflicts, even in places where the US arguably has greater interests.









*IDF uses chemical weapons against civilians in Gaza.
**Hamas terrorists attempt to scald Israeli schoolchildren.

 

[Arctish]

I think the reasons I gave are all pretty valid.

I can give reasons for getting involved in armed conflict in Mexico and why that is immediately concerning to me. I can't do the same with Israel. If you believe differently then by all means, but otherwise I think I have plenty reason to want my country not associated with that state.

Which is fine; But my question is not about you specifically, but rather about this Discussion Board's (and by extension, America's) obsession with this one little conflict above all others.

If an Israeli soldier breaks wind*, or an Palestinian spills his coffee**, it's massive news, and someone here starts a thread about it (wherein the usual suspects make the usual noises). I just don't get it. This stuff is important to the people on the ground, but it's not notably newsworthy to Americans in general - who seem perfectly adept at ignoring the minutiae of other local conflicts, even in places where the US arguably has greater interests.

*IDF uses chemical weapons against civilians in Gaza.
**Hamas terrorists attempt to scald Israeli schoolchildren.

The US spends more foreign economic and military aid money on Israel than any other country in the world, and more on the Middle East than any other region.

The situation developed slowly over time and involved considerations such as having influence in the richest oil producing region in the world, countering Soviet influence there, and peculiarities of American politics. But it could end with the stroke of a pen. We don't have to fund Israel's defense or it's expansion into the West Bank. We don't have to fund Israel at all. And we don't have to protect Israel from sanctions by using our UN veto in a way that effectively grants Israel immunity.

Some Americans like things the way they are and want them to continue, and some don't. Hence the arguing. Our financial stake in the region is greater than our stake in any other place outside of North America and Hawaii, so it's pretty important to us.

 

[bilby]

Which is fine; But my question is not about you specifically, but rather about this Discussion Board's (and by extension, America's) obsession with this one little conflict above all others.

If an Israeli soldier breaks wind*, or an Palestinian spills his coffee**, it's massive news, and someone here starts a thread about it (wherein the usual suspects make the usual noises). I just don't get it. This stuff is important to the people on the ground, but it's not notably newsworthy to Americans in general - who seem perfectly adept at ignoring the minutiae of other local conflicts, even in places where the US arguably has greater interests.

*IDF uses chemical weapons against civilians in Gaza.
**Hamas terrorists attempt to scald Israeli schoolchildren.

The US spends more foreign economic and military aid money on Israel than any other country in the world, and more on the Middle East than any other region.

The situation developed slowly over time and involved considerations such as having influence in the richest oil producing region in the world, countering Soviet influence there, and peculiarities of American politics. But it could end with the stroke of a pen. We don't have to fund Israel's defense or it's expansion into the West Bank. We don't have to fund Israel at all. And we don't have to protect Israel from sanctions by using our UN veto in a way that effectively grants Israel immunity.

Some Americans like things the way they are and want them to continue, and some don't. Hence the arguing. Our financial stake in the region is greater than our stake in any other place outside of North America and Hawaii, so it's pretty important to us.

Israel is certainly closer to the oil producing regions of the Middle East than the USA is, but she doesn't produce any oil herself; And the cold war has been over for a quarter century. I don't think the US has a financial stake in Israel, anymore than a gambler who has put his wages into a slot machine has a 'stake' in the slots; or a drunk should buy another drink, because he has so much 'at stake' already - the money has been paid, and is now gone. It's not worth chasing the losses, as the chance of any return is close to zero. The money spent was not invested, it was just spent.

'We lost a lot of money there during the cold war' seems like a poor reason to continue to care about a place that has little present day value to the US; US oil interests lie in being friendly to places like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (who would prefer the US be less friendly to Israel), and insofar as the US wants to project military power over the region (in case allies decide to renege), their existing ground bases in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Iraq, plus naval assets in the Arabian Sea can achieve that far more effectively than any assets they have in Israel.

If oil is the key, then it would make more sense to care about Iraq or Saudi Arabia; But you can count the threads and posts (and for that matter the minutes of coverage by CNN et al.) on the minutiae of daily news in those countries on the fingers of one foot.

It sounds to me like your nation is engaged in a massive demonstration of the sunk cost fallacy.

 

[Arctish]

The US spends more foreign economic and military aid money on Israel than any other country in the world, and more on the Middle East than any other region.

The situation developed slowly over time and involved considerations such as having influence in the richest oil producing region in the world, countering Soviet influence there, and peculiarities of American politics. But it could end with the stroke of a pen. We don't have to fund Israel's defense or it's expansion into the West Bank. We don't have to fund Israel at all. And we don't have to protect Israel from sanctions by using our UN veto in a way that effectively grants Israel immunity.

Some Americans like things the way they are and want them to continue, and some don't. Hence the arguing. Our financial stake in the region is greater than our stake in any other place outside of North America and Hawaii, so it's pretty important to us.

Israel is certainly closer to the oil producing regions of the Middle East than the USA is, but she doesn't produce any oil herself; And the cold war has been over for a quarter century. I don't think the US has a financial stake in Israel, anymore than a gambler who has put his wages into a slot machine has a 'stake' in the slots; or a drunk should buy another drink, because he has so much 'at stake' already - the money has been paid, and is now gone. It's not worth chasing the losses, as the chance of any return is close to zero. The money spent was not invested, it was just spent.

'We lost a lot of money there during the cold war' seems like a poor reason to continue to care about a place that has little present day value to the US; US oil interests lie in being friendly to places like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (who would prefer the US be less friendly to Israel), and insofar as the US wants to project military power over the region (in case allies decide to renege), their existing ground bases in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Iraq, plus naval assets in the Arabian Sea can achieve that far more effectively than any assets they have in Israel.

If oil is the key, then it would make more sense to care about Iraq or Saudi Arabia; But you can count the threads and posts (and for that matter the minutes of coverage by CNN et al.) on the minutiae of daily news in those countries on the fingers of one foot.

It sounds to me like your nation is engaged in a massive demonstration of the sunk cost fallacy.

If it was all just money already spent then it would make sense to walk away. But the military aid we give Israel operates like a massive kick-back scheme that benefits the US companies that build the military equipment Israel buys. It's one of the few sectors in our economy that keeps humming along. There's going to be hell to pay if the money train stops making regular deliveries. And now that Israel has seized the natural gas deposits in Palestinian waters and Pan-Arabism is making a comeback, it's believed by many Americans that our national interests are best served by cozying up to whatever party is in control of the Israeli government, ethics be damned.