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"It’s Time for Major Wealth Redistribution — Yes, I Mean It."

What percent of people (I realize it might be news to you that they are people, so read that part again if you have to) that receive public assistance do you think are happy living in the glorious luxury of food stamps, section 8 housing, and all the other luxuries of being poor in the US?

Let's assume it's as high as 10% (I suspect it's much, much lower than that). I, for one, am totally ok supporting those 10 people in order to help the other 90. You apparently, want to punish the 90 for the actions of the 10, which is very much like the current republican party. You'd fit right in.

If you make life comfortable for those 10% you'll find it's a lot more than 10%. There will be other things they would prefer to use their time on rather than upgrading their lifestyle.

That's not what I said or implied. Social security networks and available aid are not the signs of Dictatorship, just a decent society. The children of the very rich offer a safety net in the form of family wealth and presumably care. Should society at large not do the same for its struggling members?

Do you consider the super rich to be radicals, communists or something because they take care of their own when needed, endowments, trust funds, etc?

The problem with your approach is you assume everyone wants to succeed, not merely be a bum on whatever welfare system exists.

The problem with your approach is that you assume that people being a bum on whatever welfare system exists is a bad thing - but only for a very specific type of 'bum'.

The reality is that in the developed world the vast majority of people at any given time are NOT engaged in paid employment. So you are worried about adding a trivial number of additional unproductive people to a society that already supports huge numbers of such people.

Most people, given (for example) $600/wk free, gratis and for nothing (that's equal to 40 hours at a proposed $15 minimum wage), would NOT decide that this was heaven on Earth, and simply stop bothering to do anything that might generate any further income.

Sure, a handful might; And good luck to them if they want to live at that level, and have no aspirations to anything more.

But realistically, most people would not.

Would you? Seriously?

So providing that amount for nothing would have very little impact on the number of people looking for a job. It would, however, have a massive impact on employers who treat their employees like shit, if those employees could say "I quit", without risking starvation and homelessness. That's not a bad thing. At all.

I would like an answer to this question.

You seem happy to believe (apparently with zero evidence, certainly none that you have shared with us) that other people would be lazy, but that you would not. What's your basis for this low opinion of 'far more than 10%' of your fellow humans?
 
That's not what I said or implied. Social security networks and available aid are not the signs of Dictatorship, just a decent society. The children of the very rich offer a safety net in the form of family wealth and presumably care. Should society at large not do the same for its struggling members?

Do you consider the super rich to be radicals, communists or something because they take care of their own when needed, endowments, trust funds, etc?

The problem with your approach is you assume everyone wants to succeed, not merely be a bum on whatever welfare system exists.

The problem with your approach is that you assume that people being a bum on whatever welfare system exists is a bad thing - but only for a very specific type of 'bum'.

The reality is that in the developed world the vast majority of people at any given time are NOT engaged in paid employment. So you are worried about adding a trivial number of additional unproductive people to a society that already supports huge numbers of such people.

Most people, given (for example) $600/wk free, gratis and for nothing (that's equal to 40 hours at a proposed $15 minimum wage), would NOT decide that this was heaven on Earth, and simply stop bothering to do anything that might generate any further income.

Sure, a handful might; And good luck to them if they want to live at that level, and have no aspirations to anything more.

But realistically, most people would not.

Would you? Seriously?

So providing that amount for nothing would have very little impact on the number of people looking for a job. It would, however, have a massive impact on employers who treat their employees like shit, if those employees could say "I quit", without risking starvation and homelessness. That's not a bad thing. At all.

I would like an answer to this question.

You seem happy to believe (apparently with zero evidence, certainly none that you have shared with us) that other people would be lazy, but that you would not. What's your basis for this low opinion of 'far more than 10%' of your fellow humans?
Yeah, no matter how many examples of this actually being tried and proving LP wrong you show, he's not going to change his mind.
 
The problem with your approach is you assume everyone wants to succeed, not merely be a bum on whatever welfare system exists.

Really? How many people do you know who don't want to succeed, at least to the point of self sufficiency?
Maybe you need new friends.
 
Sorry for the slow response...

Anticapitalists?
I take it you don't perceive yourself as anticapitalist. But you've argued for limits on CEO pay; you've said you're outraged by the "excessive" salaries and bonuses; you've expressed shock that people defend the practice. So how do you figure it's consistent with capitalism for you and the legislators you vote for to tell company shareholders they're not allowed to give their own money to their employee on account of how it enrages some third party? The shareholders are consenting adults. What on earth do you mean by "capitalism", if to you it doesn't at least include taking other people's property rights seriously?

Where did I say I was 'outraged?'

Here:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...is-data-released-”/page10&p=541562#post541562

My point was that a power imbalance between individual workers and employers and management allows management to keep wage down, ... I've said this too many times, yet here I am having to correct the same misconception.

Outrage has nothing to do with it. It's an observation.
If your thinking on this topic has evolved, and you no longer find it outrageous that other people like being rich, I'm glad to hear it.
 
Sorry for the slow response...

Where did I say I was 'outraged?'

Here:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...is-data-released-”/page10&p=541562#post541562

My point was that a power imbalance between individual workers and employers and management allows management to keep wage down, ... I've said this too many times, yet here I am having to correct the same misconception.

Outrage has nothing to do with it. It's an observation.
If your thinking on this topic has evolved, and you no longer find it outrageous that other people like being rich, I'm glad to hear it.

That something is outrageous does not mean I am in a state of outrage....if you can see the distinction. The situation is outrageous, that is an observation. The situation has nothing to do with how I may feel about it, it is what it is.

I'd say that the current scale of disparity between the super rich and the rest of society as it stands is disgusting, in its own right. I merely point that out.

Others happen to deny it to be a problem, deny that it is outrageous, deny it to be disgusting, seeking to justify it, apparently arguing that it is a good thing, somehow a net benefit to society.
 
Sorry for the slow response...



Here:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...is-data-released-”/page10&p=541562#post541562


If your thinking on this topic has evolved, and you no longer find it outrageous that other people like being rich, I'm glad to hear it.

That something is outrageous does not mean I am in a state of outrage....if you can see the distinction. The situation is outrageous, that is an observation. The situation has nothing to do with how I may feel about it, it is what it is.

I'd say that the current scale of disparity between the super rich and the rest of society as it stands is disgusting, in its own right. I merely point that out.

Others happen to deny it to be a problem, deny that it is outrageous, deny it to be disgusting, seeking to justify it, apparently arguing that it is a good thing, somehow a net benefit to society.

It is, I hope, fairly obviously true that in a society that uses money to reward contributions, and to signal the priorities for production of goods and services, that perfect equality is impossible, and even if it were possible, is undesirable.

So some degree of inequality is both necessary and desirable.

But the problem being discussed in this thread is the dominance of the belief that if some inequality is good, more must be better (and for that matter, that if some is good, all is good).

There's no magical cutoff at which wealth transitions from beneficial to harmful, but that doesn't imply that disparity of wealth is never beneficial, nor that when taken too far, it is never harmful. Even if "too far" is hard to define, and maybe variable from one instance to another, that doesn't preclude recognising that it is both possible and actually happening.
 
I think that history has shown us the harm that can be caused by having a class of elite living lives of opulence while a significant percentage of the population struggle to make ends meet. It's the stuff of revolt and revolution. It's the degree and scale of inequity. No one could reasonably expect a cleaner to be paid the same as a surgeon, a worker the same as a manager.
 
That something is outrageous does not mean I am in a state of outrage....if you can see the distinction. The situation is outrageous, that is an observation. The situation has nothing to do with how I may feel about it, it is what it is.

I'd say that the current scale of disparity between the super rich and the rest of society as it stands is disgusting, in its own right. I merely point that out.
In the first place, how do you figure you can divorce "outrageous" from outrage, and "disgusting" from disgust? These concepts are explicit references to the emotional reactions they cause in some people. In what way can you "observe" outrageousness, or disgustingness "in its own right", other than by observing that yourself or some other person is outraged or disgusted by something? You're talking as though "outrageous" and "disgusting" are objective qualities. Well then, what is objectively outrageous about the situation ZiprHead and bilby described in the linked post, to distinguish it from the outrageousness and disgustingness of exhibiting a Muhammad cartoon, or the outrageousness and disgustingness of sodomy, that people infected by other religions would insist upon with equal certainty to yours?

And in the second place, the disparity isn't even what you said was "outrageous". There wasn't a word in that post about inequality or about how poor other people are. ZiprHead and bilby were complaining specifically about "obscene wages" and "accumulating wealth is an objective in its own right". That's what you called outrageous. So why is it outrageous for others to want something you don't want for them?

Others happen to deny it to be a problem, deny that it is outrageous, deny it to be disgusting, seeking to justify it, apparently arguing that it is a good thing, somehow a net benefit to society.
Why would any rational person find a high wage any more "obscene" than a homosexual act? Shareholders are consenting adults. If they voluntarily choose to give millions of their own dollars to a CEO, what do the rest of us care whether that's "somehow a net benefit to society"?

Do you feel gays should be required to show that gay sex is "somehow a net benefit to society" before the rest of us are justified in allowing them to proceed? What's a net benefit to society is letting other people listen to the beat of a different drummer, even when that's against somebody's religion. Letting some people's religion-induced feelings of outrage and disgust determine what other people are allowed to do with their lives is not a net benefit to society.

... So some degree of inequality is both necessary and desirable.

But the problem being discussed in this thread is the dominance of the belief that if some inequality is good, more must be better (and for that matter, that if some is good, all is good).
Where the heck are you getting that? Who has expressed the belief that if some inequality is good, more must be better, or if some is good, all is good? That's a practically non-existent belief; claiming it has "dominance" is beyond absurd.

It isn't that more inequality is good; what's good is more wealth. More wealth for the poor is good, and more wealth for the rich is also good, provided they come by it honestly. When the rich come by wealth honestly, it means they're selling goods and services their customers value more than the money they pay. That's win-win. They're making themselves richer and they're making other people richer too. Any resulting inequality is incidental; you're making believe it's the goal.

When you attribute to people who think win-win is good "the belief that more inequality must be better", you are implying that the targets of your invective think more wealth for the poor is bad. That's a misrepresentation.
 
In the first place, how do you figure you can divorce "outrageous" from outrage, and "disgusting" from disgust? These concepts are explicit references to the emotional reactions they cause in some people.

It's a figure of speech. the remark ''It's outragous'' may be used in reference to something that is 'shockingly bad or excessive' scandalous, etc....as can 'disgusting.'

You are taking these words literally while overlooking overall intent and meaning.


And in the second place, the disparity isn't even what you said was "outrageous". There wasn't a word in that post about inequality or about how poor other people are. ZiprHead and bilby were complaining specifically about "obscene wages" and "accumulating wealth is an objective in its own right". That's what you called outrageous. So why is it outrageous for others to want something you don't want for them?

Again, you focus on rhetoric, playing the semantic card while overlooking intent and meaning.




Why would any rational person find a high wage any more "obscene" than a homosexual act? Shareholders are consenting adults. If they voluntarily choose to give millions of their own dollars to a CEO, what do the rest of us care whether that's "somehow a net benefit to society"?

Like many words, the meaning of the word 'obscene' varies according to context. Obscene may simply mean: abominable; disgusting, ie, obscene wealth;

Merriam Webster.
d : so excessive as to be offensive obscene wealth obscene waste
 
In the first place, how do you figure you can divorce "outrageous" from outrage, and "disgusting" from disgust? These concepts are explicit references to the emotional reactions they cause in some people. In what way can you "observe" outrageousness, or disgustingness "in its own right", other than by observing that yourself or some other person is outraged or disgusted by something? You're talking as though "outrageous" and "disgusting" are objective qualities. Well then, what is objectively outrageous about the situation ZiprHead and bilby described in the linked post, to distinguish it from the outrageousness and disgustingness of exhibiting a Muhammad cartoon, or the outrageousness and disgustingness of sodomy, that people infected by other religions would insist upon with equal certainty to yours?

And in the second place, the disparity isn't even what you said was "outrageous". There wasn't a word in that post about inequality or about how poor other people are. ZiprHead and bilby were complaining specifically about "obscene wages" and "accumulating wealth is an objective in its own right". That's what you called outrageous. So why is it outrageous for others to want something you don't want for them?


Why would any rational person find a high wage any more "obscene" than a homosexual act? Shareholders are consenting adults. If they voluntarily choose to give millions of their own dollars to a CEO, what do the rest of us care whether that's "somehow a net benefit to society"?

Do you feel gays should be required to show that gay sex is "somehow a net benefit to society" before the rest of us are justified in allowing them to proceed? What's a net benefit to society is letting other people listen to the beat of a different drummer, even when that's against somebody's religion. Letting some people's religion-induced feelings of outrage and disgust determine what other people are allowed to do with their lives is not a net benefit to society.

... So some degree of inequality is both necessary and desirable.

But the problem being discussed in this thread is the dominance of the belief that if some inequality is good, more must be better (and for that matter, that if some is good, all is good).
Where the heck are you getting that? Who has expressed the belief that if some inequality is good, more must be better, or if some is good, all is good? That's a practically non-existent belief; claiming it has "dominance" is beyond absurd.

It isn't that more inequality is good; what's good is more wealth. More wealth for the poor is good, and more wealth for the rich is also good, provided they come by it honestly. When the rich come by wealth honestly, it means they're selling goods and services their customers value more than the money they pay. That's win-win. They're making themselves richer and they're making other people richer too. Any resulting inequality is incidental; you're making believe it's the goal.

When you attribute to people who think win-win is good "the belief that more inequality must be better", you are implying that the targets of your invective think more wealth for the poor is bad. That's a misrepresentation.

It's really not. They are the targets of my invective precisely because they do think that more wealth for the poor is bad.

That's not usually what they say, but their actions completely drown out their words on this subject.
 
I note the usual horseshit ITT about zero-sum "outgroup" dah-de-dah..

After a 40+ year experiment, the evidence is in : Inequality is bad for the economy and makes the pie smaller than it would otherwise have been. Most folks are thus worse off.

Not zero sum, but negative sum. Not just in the US, but nearly everywhere neoliberal policies have been tried. Even the IMF is now admitting it.
 
... So some degree of inequality is both necessary and desirable.

But the problem being discussed in this thread is the dominance of the belief that if some inequality is good, more must be better (and for that matter, that if some is good, all is good).

There's no magical cutoff at which wealth transitions from beneficial to harmful, but that doesn't imply that disparity of wealth is never beneficial, nor that when taken too far, it is never harmful. Even if "too far" is hard to define, and maybe variable from one instance to another, that doesn't preclude recognising that it is both possible and actually happening.

Bilby makes the key point here.

Right-wingers love to exaggerate on this topic. Propose a tax increase from 30% to 35% and their sarcastic answer is "Why not 99% or 100%?"

We also learn from right-wingers that the $200 million fiber-optic cable from NY to Chicago, with tunnels built through mountains so some investors could get their orders in a few microseconds before others, helped retail investors by reducing spreads! :whack:

I try to help right-wingers think with analogies: "If a bit of chocolate is good, should you make it the only component of your diet?" But nothing gets through to them.


Wealth inequality was rather low in the U.S. (and throughout most of the world) during the 1930's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Yet there was great progress during this era, which culminated with the Apollo Moon Landing. The 50's and 60's are now looked back on fondly as the stereotypical era of American contentment, prosperity and progress.

But by now, wealth and income inequality have passed the high levels of the 1890's, and are still getting worse. Even right-wing economists admit that this has become a major problem which needs to be addressed.
 
Beyoncé has hundreds of millions of dollars of wealth, but she has, presumably, provided hundreds of millions of dollars worth of joy and pleasure to the world. I'd be happy to increase her tax rate, but I don't view her or other successful artists as the main problem. Similarly, if someone invents a better battery and thereby becomes a billionaire, we can feel that his income was justified by his contribution.

What annoys me are people who become very rich without contributing much of value. I'm thinking especially of people who become rich by inventing or indulging in financial shenanigans. I think most of these shenanigans are counter to the public interest and should be forbidden or at least better regulated. (This is only loosely related to thread topic, but I couldn't find a better thread for these comments. There probably is one, but the Search function at TFT is bizarrely flawed.)

Recently in the news is the collapse of Archegos Capital. This was a family-owned "hedge fund" operated by Bill Hwang, a big-name hedge fund manager. (It is family-owned because, having been convicted of investment-related felonies, Hwang is prohibited from managing others' money.) Hwang/Archegos made huge highly-leveraged bets on stocks including ViacomCBS. However, to keep his holdings secret from regulators and other investors, he didn't actually buy shares in ViacomCBS etc. Instead he let big banks (Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Nomura and Credit Suisse) buy the stocks and sell him "total return swaps." The number of big banks he had to involve gives some idea of the huge bets he was making.

ViacomCBS shares began falling, along with the other stocks that Archegos was long, and the banks had to react swiftly, selling their shares and demanding repayment of their massive loans to Archegos, which quickly became worthless. Of the four big banks I mentioned above, the two American banks managed to avoid significant losses while each of the two foreign banks have lost billions of dollars! (Unclear why. Were the American banks smarter? Or better poised information-wise? Or, most likely, conniving to pass on the big losses to their own customers?) What do huge LOSSES have to do with un-useful shenanigan-related WEALTH? Archegos won huge profits last year with similar shenanigans, and so did many other Wall Street players; headlines are made only when deals go belly-up.

And when the losses are too huge for Wall St. to handle, the U.S. taxpayer stands up, under direction of the bankers who run Treasury and the Fed, and take the losses, letting Wall St. off the hook.

Here's a YouTube about another multi-billion dollar collapse in the news, this time of Greensill Capital. The details get ridiculously complicated. They begin with "supply-chain lending", an invention patented(!) by one of the Greensill founders. Greensill founded a bank, hyped itself as especially tech-savvy, made short-term "supply-chain" loans, repackaged them, insured them and sold them to banks. The insurers passed the risk onto re-insurers; the banks passed the loans on to their customers who wanted returns slightly better than money market. The complicated network was fragile and, although AFAIK no criminal conduct is alleged, Greensill went bankrupt. Several court cases must be settled before the details of this collapse are known but it appears that, again, Credit Suisse will be a big loser.

For what? What happened to good old days when a businessman and his banker would shake hands and make a loan with no need for dozens of other financiers getting involved? I forget the number, but a very large percentage of U.S. and U.K. profits are NOT from mining or manufacturing, NOT from inventions or entertainment, NOT from useful services, but from financial shenanigans: Shenanigans often so complicated that government can't begin to devise regulations.

Two interesting details in the story:
(a) The YouTube claims that the banks were motivated to lay off the loans because new regulations in response to the 2008 crisis created a disincentive for banks to keep loans on their books. If true, this confirms my belief that governments do not know how to regulate finance.
(b) How in heaven's name could Greensill get a patent on the idea of supply-chain loans? Supply-chain loans already existed, the patent probably just posits a computer program in the loop. Even if "novel", would this be "non-obvious"? (Novelty and Non-obviousness are two of the criteria for patent issuance in the U.S.)

As someone involved with patents for computer algorithms, I can speak to patentability. I've noticed that, sometimes, the MORE obvious an idea is, the EASIER it is to get a patent! That's because designers often don't bother to mention ideas that are very obvious, so obvious ideas don't show up in searches — and negative search results are taken by patent examiners as evidence of novelty and non-obviousness!
 
If you make life comfortable for those 10% you'll find it's a lot more than 10%. There will be other things they would prefer to use their time on rather than upgrading their lifestyle.

Show your work.

I believe society shows the opposite.

Any of us on the higher end of income could have an “easier” life if we forewent our “type A” jobs and worked instead in the low-decision menial jobs. You clock out, you’re done. No more evening meetings and weekend emergency call ins, no more “expected 10% unpaid overtime” no more officewear budget.

But we don’t.

Similarly, in the hourly wage-earner group, you clearly see people doing regular overtime to get some extra pay, rather than clocking out and refusing call-ins.

And similarly, you can look at minimum wage earners and see how many of them work two (or more) jobs to get themselves above that $600/wk level.

So if a UBI got them $600 without putting in the first 40 of their 75-hour week, we can expect them to keep putting in hours to keep making more than $600/wk, except now not being exhausted and unable to be with their children and families or having time to learn skills.

The evidence of the workforce does not support your claim that a certain group of people far above 10% of society are inherently lazy takers who will sit on their porch in rags with your $600.
 
Wealth inequality was rather low in the U.S. (and throughout most of the world) during the 1930's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Yet there was great progress during this era, which culminated with the Apollo Moon Landing. The 50's and 60's are now looked back on fondly as the stereotypical era of American contentment, prosperity and progress.

But by now, wealth and income inequality have passed the high levels of the 1890's, and are still getting worse. Even right-wing economists admit that this has become a major problem which needs to be addressed.

I don't believe we have ever really known how much wealth inequality there is. There always have been ways of hiding it.
 
Wealth inequality was rather low in the U.S. (and throughout most of the world) during the 1930's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Yet there was great progress during this era, which culminated with the Apollo Moon Landing. The 50's and 60's are now looked back on fondly as the stereotypical era of American contentment, prosperity and progress.

But by now, wealth and income inequality have passed the high levels of the 1890's, and are still getting worse. Even right-wing economists admit that this has become a major problem which needs to be addressed.

I don't believe we have ever really known how much wealth inequality there is. There always have been ways of hiding it.

Have you ever considered that the historic plethora of ways to hide it derives from a clear and regular social understanding that it is bad, and must be disassembled when found?

It sounds like you are describing the way my brother hid food in his room from our parents despite a full fridge. Clearly, it's being hidden because society in general disapproves. Otherwise they wouldn't have to hide it.
 
Wealth inequality was rather low in the U.S. (and throughout most of the world) during the 1930's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Yet there was great progress during this era, which culminated with the Apollo Moon Landing. The 50's and 60's are now looked back on fondly as the stereotypical era of American contentment, prosperity and progress.

But by now, wealth and income inequality have passed the high levels of the 1890's, and are still getting worse. Even right-wing economists admit that this has become a major problem which needs to be addressed.

I don't believe we have ever really known how much wealth inequality there is. There always have been ways of hiding it.

I don't believe this is true. Nowadays many wealth-concealing techniques are illegal, and many people obey laws. (You don't need to know every individual's wealth to estimate wealth inequality. But, BTW, do you think the estimates of billionaires' wealth published by Forbes or Fortune are way off?) It's easy to measure wealth of the poorest families of course: Walk into their hovel and count the meager possessions.

True, much individual wealth is hard to assess, but estimating total wealth in an economy is enough to make deductions. The total market cap of publicly-traded corporations is a Google-click away. Private companies' value can be estimated via comparisons. Complex financial instruments can be ignored when we only need total wealth: they're zero-sum (my asset is offset by your liability). Real estate may be hardest; I wonder if satellite photos might be useful for that!

Piketty's Capital is a good starting point for understanding such quantitative analyses. Remember: the goal is just to compare inequality levels across time and space, not to track down the hidden wealth of every drug dealer.

One type of wealth may get ignored in typical studies: future earning power. If someone has no wealth but earns $20,000 per year does he have some $100,000's of wealth in the form of human capital? Piketty excludes such wealth of free-men in his analyses, but does include owned slave labor in his analyses of wealth in pre-1860 U.S.A.
 
I don't believe we have ever really known how much wealth inequality there is. There always have been ways of hiding it.

The only thing we don't know is the ceiling of wealth inequality.
We already know the "at least" figure by looking at what they are not hiding.
And that is already too egregious. If they are hiding wealth, it only makes that worse, never better.
 
Wealth inequality was rather low in the U.S. (and throughout most of the world) during the 1930's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Yet there was great progress during this era, which culminated with the Apollo Moon Landing. The 50's and 60's are now looked back on fondly as the stereotypical era of American contentment, prosperity and progress.

But by now, wealth and income inequality have passed the high levels of the 1890's, and are still getting worse. Even right-wing economists admit that this has become a major problem which needs to be addressed.

I don't believe we have ever really known how much wealth inequality there is. There always have been ways of hiding it.

Have you ever considered that the historic plethora of ways to hide it derives from a clear and regular social understanding that it is bad, and must be disassembled when found?

It sounds like you are describing the way my brother hid food in his room from our parents despite a full fridge. Clearly, it's being hidden because society in general disapproves. Otherwise they wouldn't have to hide it.

No--I'm saying it was being hidden from the tax man.

I don't believe this is true. Nowadays many wealth-concealing techniques are illegal, and many people obey laws. (You don't need to know every individual's wealth to estimate wealth inequality. But, BTW, do you think the estimates of billionaires' wealth published by Forbes or Fortune are way off?) It's easy to measure wealth of the poorest families of course: Walk into their hovel and count the meager possessions.

Of course it's illegal. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Look at all the apparent tax shenanigans His Flatulence engaged in. Look at all the issues with offshore accounts.

True, much individual wealth is hard to assess, but estimating total wealth in an economy is enough to make deductions. The total market cap of publicly-traded corporations is a Google-click away. Private companies' value can be estimated via comparisons. Complex financial instruments can be ignored when we only need total wealth: they're zero-sum (my asset is offset by your liability). Real estate may be hardest; I wonder if satellite photos might be useful for that!

You can get the overall, but you can't allocate it to the various economic classes. Remember, a decent chunk of that is held by pension funds and the like.

Piketty's Capital is a good starting point for understanding such quantitative analyses. Remember: the goal is just to compare inequality levels across time and space, not to track down the hidden wealth of every drug dealer.

I tried to read that and gave up when it became apparent he couldn't distinguish individuals from groups. Just because there are always the wealthy doesn't mean it's the same people--I got tired of him pretending that there was a continuity in cases there obviously was not, new sources of wealth displaced the old.

One type of wealth may get ignored in typical studies: future earning power. If someone has no wealth but earns $20,000 per year does he have some $100,000's of wealth in the form of human capital? Piketty excludes such wealth of free-men in his analyses, but does include owned slave labor in his analyses of wealth in pre-1860 U.S.A.

Yup, when you try to compare inequality that's a big issue. The "net worth" of a recent college graduate is generally negative--but that doesn't mean they're poor.

I don't believe we have ever really known how much wealth inequality there is. There always have been ways of hiding it.

The only thing we don't know is the ceiling of wealth inequality.
We already know the "at least" figure by looking at what they are not hiding.
And that is already too egregious. If they are hiding wealth, it only makes that worse, never better.

The issue was comparing wealth inequality over time. I'm saying that such a comparison is inherently deeply flawed.
 
New Zealand raises minimum wage to $20 an hour
Taxes on the richest New Zealanders are being raised


Changes to minimum wage and tax policy came into force in New Zealand today.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s had promised to raise the minimum wage to $20 per hour (£10.15) and to raise taxes on the wealthiest Kiwis.

The rise in wages means that the income of 175,500 New Zealanders will be increased by $44 (£22.30) each week.

“Today’s rise to $20 per hour is estimated to boost wages across the economy by $216 million, giving New Zealanders more money to spend at local businesses,” Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety Michael Wood said.

“There are many Kiwis who earn the minimum wage who have gone above and beyond in our fight against COVID. I think everyone agrees those who served us so well during lockdown – including supermarket workers, cleaners, and security guards – deserve a pay rise,” the minister added.

The new changes also impact the top two percent of earners in New Zealand, those on salaries of over $180,000 (£91,238.87), who will now be taxed by 39 per cent.
 
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