Jesus and divorce

[FreeMan88]

Jesus said that people can only divorce over infidelity. What about abuse? Most Christians say if one is abused then you should pray and forgive. Why would God throw you into Hell if you separate because you’ve been abused and maybe you forgive but don’t want to live with them. That’s kind of cruel.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Check out the divorce rate in the U.S. and compare it to the number of professing Christians.

 

[FreeMan88]

I know. It’s huge.

 

[Lion IRC]

Assuming we are differentiating between civil divorce and an official annulment from the Church, (in other words, do you actually care what Jesus and the Church thinks,) one could theoretically argue that the 'abuse' was sufficient evidence that the person you married wasnt who they purported to be when the sacrament was entered into.

If a gay person fakes heterosexuality, gets married, and then engages in behaviour their spouse never expected, that could be sufficient to establish that the marriage should never have been sacramentally blessed/recognised in the first place.

'Abuse' of a type which one spouse or the other finds intolerable to such an extent that they believe it constitutes a breach of elementary marriage vows, could feasibly sustain a case that the stated vows were made dishonestly.

 

[FreeMan88]

So the abuse could count as a form of infidelity?

 

[none]

Jesus said that people can only divorce over infidelity. What about abuse? Most Christians say if one is abused then you should pray and forgive. Why would God throw you into Hell if you separate because you’ve been abused and maybe you forgive but don’t want to live with them. That’s kind of cruel.

Jesus who?

 

[Lion IRC]

So the abuse could count as a form of infidelity?

No, I don't think (ie. my opinion) that would meet a Church definition of infidelity, but I do think some forms of behaviour could be seen to be proof that a person wasn't who they pretended to be when you got married.

Tricking someone into marrying you is grounds for an annulment. A catholic marriage vow in canon law is for life and breaking your vow by inflicting domestic violence would seem to be a clear sign that you didn't intend to keep that lifelong vow and therefore tricked your partner into believing something about you that wasn't true.

 

[Rhea]

So you have to twist the words and worm it into “they aren’t who they said they were,” because just plain abusing your spouse or children isn’t a good enough reason standing on its own.


Why not?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Forgetting Jesus' teaching on divorce (as is the Christian custom in this country, anyway), divorce is almost always a good thing, a necessary thing, a clearing away of dead wood in one's life, and an opportunity to grow and at a minimum, to find some more peace and contentment in life. Divorce should be an occasion for cakes, parties, and Happy Divorce cards, and often it is. Some of the happiest people I know are friends and acquaintances who, some time after their divorce, will tell hilarious stories about the spouse they escaped. (One was an extremely churchy woman, a mainstay of one of our little churches, whose first husband was a strange, mousy little guy. They married because they didn't know what else to do, but about five years later she found herself saying, "What are we doing? I don't love you! You don't love me!" They had no kids, but she had to sell the house to split the $$ with hubby. Worth it.) Me, I'm single, but if I was to marry (and I'm way, way past that possibility), I'd want that escape clause.

 

[steve_bank]

Patriarchal and misogynist Abrahamic based traditions.

Children and wife are property.

 

[Politesse]

Jesus said that people can only divorce over infidelity. What about abuse? Most Christians say if one is abused then you should pray and forgive. Why would God throw you into Hell if you separate because you’ve been abused and maybe you forgive but don’t want to live with them. That’s kind of cruel.

You feel that soemone who abuses their spouse is being faithful to them?

 

[Bronzeage]

One of the points often overlooked in these kinds of discussions is that, one does not have to be a good Christian, to be a Christian.

A divorced Christian can just shrug their shoulders and say, "Well, I guess I blew that one, too."

 

[funinspace]

Jesus said that people can only divorce over infidelity. What about abuse? Most Christians say if one is abused then you should pray and forgive. Why would God throw you into Hell if you separate because you’ve been abused and maybe you forgive but don’t want to live with them. That’s kind of cruel.

Well, first I think there is the question of how does one consider the NT/Bible (even if one considers themselves Christian). Is it a literalists handbook? Secondly, whatever this Jesus person said, what we have is decades later written by anonymous authors.

In John 8:4, it doesn't quite sound like advise to kick her out of the church (at least in the future construct): “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”
6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.
9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”
11 “No, Lord,” she said.
And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Then there is Matt 5:29, who takes that literally?: If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.


Well, maybe a couple dozen Christians live by this moto:
Matt 5:38-40: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

Considering the importance placed by Jesus on his 2 commandments and the insights from the above, I don't think one needs to play linguistic gymnastics to give a victim of spousal abuse a theological pass to dumping an abuser.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Luke 6:30: Jesus tells believers that, should they find someone is taking their stuff, to let them have it and not seek to get it back. Whereas, in today's Bible belt, the Christians will probably unload their shotguns if you touch their Harleys.

 

[Elixir]

Luke 6:30: Jesus tells believers that, should they find someone is taking their stuff, to let them have it and not seek to get it back. Whereas, in today's Bible belt, the Christians will probably unload their shotguns if you touch their Harleys.

… and if you touch their shotgun, expect to receive the full contents of the 30 round mag of their AR-15.

 

[WAB]

Luke 6:30: Jesus tells believers that, should they find someone is taking their stuff, to let them have it and not seek to get it back. Whereas, in today's Bible belt, the Christians will probably unload their shotguns if you touch their Harleys.

They might even unload their shotguns on you if you simply let them know that their Harleys are atrociously noisy and inefficient.

 

[Lion IRC]

Patriarchal and misogynist Abrahamic based traditions.

Children and wife are property.

Meh.
Women also use the term "my husband" and "my child" signifying possession.

Trigger warning. Sexist joke.

Show

A little boy in school was boasting about his possessions to a fellow student - a girl.
Look, he said. "I've got a yoyo toy".
The little girl smugly takes out her yoyo and says "yeah, I have one too"..
Not to be outdone, the little boy takes out his Walkman personal music player and says "Look what else I've got."
The little girl reaches into her school bag and takes out her ipod proudly topping his effort.
"Oh yeah", says the little boy. "Well look at this", he says, unzipping the fly on his trousers.
Unimpressed, the girl lifts her dress and says..."well, I don't have one of those, but I do have one of these.
And with one of these, I can get as many of those as I want."

 

[steve_bank]

Patriarchal and misogynist Abrahamic based traditions.

Children and wife are property.

Meh.
Women also use the term "my husband" and "my child" signifying possession.

Trigger warning. Sexist joke.

Show

A little boy in school was boasting about his possessions to a fellow student - a girl.
Look, he said. "I've got a yoyo toy".
The little girl smugly takes out her yoyo and says "yeah, I have one too"..
Not to be outdone, the little boy takes out his Walkman personal music player and says "Look what else I've got."
The little girl reaches into her school bag and takes out her ipod proudly topping his effort.
"Oh yeah", says the little boy. "Well look at this", he says, unzipping the fly on his trousers.
Unimpressed, the girl lifts her dress and says..."well, I don't have one of those, but I do have one of these.
And with one of these, I can get as many of those as I want."

If you want tp know what the absent civilizations were like look at Saudi Arabia today. Of course there were variations and exceptions. Cleopatra wielded power.

Look at the culture of orthodox Jews in New York City. Men and women are socially distanced, rules for how women dress, and spousal abuse. Look at the harsh punishments in Leviticus.

Or Paul who said women should walk behind men, dress plainly, and never instruct en in public.

And of course the fall of man, Adam corrupted by Eve eating the forbidden fruit. Samson corrupted by Delilah..