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Jesus nailed to a cross? Evidence does not support it

credoconsolans said:
Sarpedon said:
I'm amazed that you can look at that and think it is a realistic depiction of anything, and the only thing that could account for the strangeness of the pose is that he has a stake up his ass. Again, if it were an impalement, why the cross bar? Where would it even be attached? I also note that the top of the stake is visible above Jesus' head. Are you suggesting that he was impaled entirely? The only reason that the bottom of the 'stake' is so prominent is that it was so deeply excised that it went through the medium. The crossbar and the end of the 'stake' above are less deeply incised. Given the quality of the craftsmanship, I am not inclined to believe that it was deliberate.
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Remember what the technique was for. Not just to kill someone, but for them to die slowly. You impale a guy up the ass and hoist him up and that's all she wrote.
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If the point was a slow death, then why impale him through the head? One would think he'd be dead before they finished
 
LordKiran said:
credoconsolans said:
Remember what the technique was for. Not just to kill someone, but for them to die slowly. You impale a guy up the ass and hoist him up and that's all she wrote.
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If the point was a slow death, then why impale him through the head? One would think he'd be dead before they finished
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Head?
 
Crucifixion iconography arrived very late on the early Christian scene. The apologetic line goes that the spaceman's followers were too ashamed and embarrassed to picture their space hero this way.

The truth is that it was invented along with the rest of the spaceman myth just like the birth narrative, coming back to life, etc.
 
In the U.S. today christianity is kinda popular. What's really popular, however, is the blood and gore associated with christianity. Mel Gibson even made his bloodbath movie, just like many of his other movies, full of gratuitous violence and bloodletting.

Remember in Passion pounding the nails and how bits of blood would spurt up into the air with every blow? It's the same scene as when he was repeatedly hacking that British soldier with the tomahawk in the Patriot. Blood flying up into the air with every swing. Braveheart was no different. Christians at the time no doubt loved watching gladiators hack each other apart.

Christians love violence. The gospel crucifiction story is horrendously violent, making it popular stuff for christians then and now.
 
joedad said:
Christians love violence.
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I imagine that's why it has more subscribers than those religions with a boring or low-impact afterlife.
No one wants to hear that you just fade away, and stop caring about the wrongs done to you, or wanting revenge.

Some of the Christains that really made me stop and evaluate my beliefs are the ones who used to actually fleck spittle at me when they described the torments people faced for murder, drugs, Jane Fonda, communism, socialism, sodomy/homosexuality and saying 'Not my problem' to the war on Christmas. THey get that glaze in their eye, looking forward to staking out a cloud somewhere that they had a good view of the lake of fire and the demons with their pitchforks.
 
Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilot, was crucified, dead an buried. On the third day, he arose from the dead.

That makes a pretty concise narrative. If anyone thinks debunking the crucifixion part debunks the whole story, they're really overthinking this.
 
Torturing its opponents to death by crucifixion was standard Roman practice. The details as imagined later hardly matter, surely? Is the fact seriously disputed?
 
iolo said:
Torturing its opponents to death by crucifixion was standard Roman practice. The details as imagined later hardly matter, surely? Is the fact seriously disputed?
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There were lots of dudes with this name besides the gospel protagonist. Some we even have mention of, and no doubt some got whacked. That these facts make the official Jesus Tales credible is not factual.

The Jesus Tales are fiction. Of this fact we can be certain.
 
iolo said:
Torturing its opponents to death by crucifixion was standard Roman practice. The details as imagined later hardly matter, surely? Is the fact seriously disputed?
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I don't think anyone seriously disputes that crucifixion was a common method of torture and execution in the Roman period. Equally it's not in dispute that the details of the crucifixion as described by the RC Church stem, not from the first century, but from the Middle Ages, and that the 'traditional' idea that Jesus was nailed to the cross, and that he was speared in the side after only a short time, would both be departures from the normal Roman practice - the hands are not mechanically strong enough to support a person in this fashion for very long; metal nails were scarce and expensive; and the whole point of the excercise was to cause a long drawn-out death over many days. Expecting a crucified man to be dead after just a few days is a rookie error, and taking him down before the crows had consumed most of his flesh would rob the empire of their main objective - the provision of a grisly reminder to passers by not to fuck with the authorities.

The whole story smacks of an inexpert fiction written by someone who had heard of crucifixion, but didn't know the details.
 
joedad said:
iolo said:
Torturing its opponents to death by crucifixion was standard Roman practice. The details as imagined later hardly matter, surely? Is the fact seriously disputed?
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There were lots of dudes with this name besides the gospel protagonist. Some we even have mention of, and no doubt some got whacked. That these facts make the official Jesus Tales credible is not factual.

The Jesus Tales are fiction. Of this fact we can be certain.
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There were lots of Romans called Julius, so obviously Roman history is a Martian plot. Grow up!

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bilby said:
iolo said:
Torturing its opponents to death by crucifixion was standard Roman practice. The details as imagined later hardly matter, surely? Is the fact seriously disputed?
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I don't think anyone seriously disputes that crucifixion was a common method of torture and execution in the Roman period. Equally it's not in dispute that the details of the crucifixion as described by the RC Church stem, not from the first century, but from the Middle Ages, and that the 'traditional' idea that Jesus was nailed to the cross, and that he was speared in the side after only a short time, would both be departures from the normal Roman practice - the hands are not mechanically strong enough to support a person in this fashion for very long; metal nails were scarce and expensive; and the whole point of the excercise was to cause a long drawn-out death over many days. Expecting a crucified man to be dead after just a few days is a rookie error, and taking him down before the crows had consumed most of his flesh would rob the empire of their main objective - the provision of a grisly reminder to passers by not to fuck with the authorities.

The whole story smacks of an inexpert fiction written by someone who had heard of crucifixion, but didn't know the details.
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Not the whole story - some of the details perhaps.
 
iolo said:
joedad said:
There were lots of dudes with this name besides the gospel protagonist. Some we even have mention of, and no doubt some got whacked. That these facts make the official Jesus Tales credible is not factual.

The Jesus Tales are fiction. Of this fact we can be certain.
Click to expand...

There were lots of Romans called Julius, so obviously Roman history is a Martian plot. Grow up!
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A few hundred years ago most every westerner believed the Jesus Tale verbatim. Many have since grown up. They also believed that a spaceman was interested in their vaginas and penises and how they used these sex organs, and they've grown up. And they believed that everything was made by the spaceman some thousands of years ago, and they've since grown up.

Many have not grown up when it comes to many aspects of such "consensus" knowledge, this is certain.
 
Personally, I find the in-story establishment of Pilate's guilt at having crucified an innocent man as sufficient reason for his allowing his removal and the decent burial to take place.
 
joedad said:
In the U.S. today christianity is kinda popular. What's really popular, however, is the blood and gore associated with christianity. Mel Gibson even made his bloodbath movie, just like many of his other movies, full of gratuitous violence and bloodletting.

Remember in Passion pounding the nails and how bits of blood would spurt up into the air with every blow? It's the same scene as when he was repeatedly hacking that British soldier with the tomahawk in the Patriot. Blood flying up into the air with every swing. Braveheart was no different. Christians at the time no doubt loved watching gladiators hack each other apart.

Christians love violence. The gospel crucifiction story is horrendously violent, making it popular stuff for christians then and now.
Click to expand...
Well, they love that Jesus made such a sacrifice so they wouldn't have to do anything but say they are 'born again'.
 
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