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Judge decrees infant must die, parents forbidden to take him home

Jason Harvestdancer

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This is government health insurance. They'll pay for everything, and what they won't pay for you can't pay for.

DEATH PANEL: Judge decrees infant must die, parents forbidden to take him home

Ten-month-old Charlie Gard will die soon–against the wishes of his parents, but in accordance with the desires of a judge.

Charlie, who was born on August 4 last year, is one of only 16 cases of mitochondrial DNA depletion syndrome, a condition that saps energy from the organs and muscles, leaving patients’ lungs so weak that they can only breathe with a ventilator.

He has lived in a London hospital since he was eight weeks old.

In March, doctors told his parents, Connie Yates and Chris Gard, that they should withdraw their child from the ventilator, as there was nothing else they could do, but the parents refused–mostly on the grounds that an untried experimental treatment was available in the United States.

They found an eminent doctor willing to try the unproven therapy, and supporters have helped them raise $1.7 million dollars to pay for it.

But the hospital, in accordance with British health law, fought the parents in court to prevent further treatment, and in early June, England’s Supreme Court agreed with the hospital. This week, the European Court of Human Rights—the court of last appeal—refused to overturn that decision, sealing Charlie’s fate.
 
This is government health insurance. They'll pay for everything, and what they won't pay for you can't pay for.

DEATH PANEL: Judge decrees infant must die, parents forbidden to take him home

Ten-month-old Charlie Gard will die soon–against the wishes of his parents, but in accordance with the desires of a judge.

Charlie, who was born on August 4 last year, is one of only 16 cases of mitochondrial DNA depletion syndrome, a condition that saps energy from the organs and muscles, leaving patients’ lungs so weak that they can only breathe with a ventilator.

He has lived in a London hospital since he was eight weeks old.

In March, doctors told his parents, Connie Yates and Chris Gard, that they should withdraw their child from the ventilator, as there was nothing else they could do, but the parents refused–mostly on the grounds that an untried experimental treatment was available in the United States.

They found an eminent doctor willing to try the unproven therapy, and supporters have helped them raise $1.7 million dollars to pay for it.

But the hospital, in accordance with British health law, fought the parents in court to prevent further treatment, and in early June, England’s Supreme Court agreed with the hospital. This week, the European Court of Human Rights—the court of last appeal—refused to overturn that decision, sealing Charlie’s fate.

Except it's not about payment. It's about torturing an irreversibly brain-damaged infant who is in the terminal stages of a fatal illness by using 'experimental treatments' (completely untested in humans or animals) that are extremely unlikely to work beyond a slight extension of life expectancy with extremely poor quality of life. The doctor proposing the treatment has said that it would only provide a small chance of a meaningful improvement in Charlie’s brain function, that it will not be a 'cure', and that turning off life support is a reasonable position.

This is about what's best for the patient, not his parents' denial about the situation.
 
From (one of) the court decisions:

...

It seemed, at the outset of this hearing, that there might have been a lone voice in the USA that was offering what has been described in some reports as “pioneering treatment”. Understandably, Charlie’s parents have grasped that possibility, they have done all that they could possibly have done, they have very publicly raised funds. What parents would not do the same? But I have to say, having heard the evidence, that this case has never been about affordability, but about whether there is anything to be done for Charlie. At one stage GOSH got as far as deciding to apply for ethical permission to attempt nucleoside therapy, a treatment that has never been used on patients with this form of MDDS. But by the time that decision had been made, Charlie’s condition had greatly worsened and the view of all here was that his epileptic encephalopathy was such that his brain damage was severe and irreversible, that treatment was potentially painful but incapable of achieving anything positive for him.

I was aware that I was to hear evidence from the doctor in the USA who was,reportedly, offering what had been referred to as pioneering treatment. Before he gave evidence, I encouraged the treating consultant at GOSH to speak with him,which she was able and willing to do. I am truly grateful to these experts for the time that they have given to this case. The outcome of that discussion is illuminating and the doctor in the USA said the following:

“Seeing the documents this morning has been very helpful. I can understand the opinions that he is so severely affected by encelopathy that any attempt at therapy would be futile. I agree that it is very unlikely that he will improve with that therapy. It is unlikely.”

However, the US doctor made it clear that, were Charlie in the US, he would treat him if the parents so desired and could pay for it. As I have already said, funding in this case is not in issue. The US doctor also confirmed during this telephone conversation that he had never treated with nucleoside therapy anyone who had encephalopathy, therefore he was unable to indicate from any scientific basis whether a patient with encephalopathy would respond positively.

Charlie suffers from the RRM2B mutation of MDDS. No one in the world has ever treated this form of MDDS with nucleoside therapy, although patients with a different strain, TK2, have received nucleoside therapy, with some recorded benefit.In mouse models the benefit to TK2 patients was put at 4% of life expectancy. There is no evidence that nucleoside therapy can cross the blood/brain barrier, which it must do to treat RRM2B, although the US doctor expressed the hope that it might do so. There is unanimity among the experts from whom I have heard that nucleoside therapy cannot reverse structural brain damage. I dare say that medical science may benefit, objectively, from the experiment, but experimentation cannot be in Charlie’s best interests unless there is a prospect of benefit for him.

The GOSH team believe that Charlie can probably experience pain, but is unable to react to it in a meaningful way. Their evidence was that being ventilated, being suctioned, living as Charlie does, are all capable of causing pain. Transporting Charlie to the USA would be problematic, but possible. Subjecting him to nucleoside therapy is unknown territory, for it has never even been tested even on mouse models, but it may (or may not) subject the patient to pain, possibly even to mutations. But if Charlie’s damaged brain function cannot be improved, as all agree,then how can he be any better off than he is now, which is a condition that his parents believe should not be sustained?

It is with the heaviest of hearts, but with complete conviction for Charlie’s best interests, that I find it is in Charlie’s best interests that I accede to these applications and rule that GOSH may lawfully withdraw all treatment save for palliative care to permit Charlie to die with dignity. I want to thank the team of experts and carers at GOSH, and others who cannot be named, for the extraordinary care that they have provide to this family. Most importantly of all, I want to thank Charlie’s parents for their brave and dignified campaign on his behalf, but more than anything to pay tribute to their absolute dedication to their wonderful boy, from the day that he was born.
 
This is government health insurance. They'll pay for everything, and what they won't pay for you can't pay for.

DEATH PANEL: Judge decrees infant must die, parents forbidden to take him home

Ten-month-old Charlie Gard will die soon–against the wishes of his parents, but in accordance with the desires of a judge.

Charlie, who was born on August 4 last year, is one of only 16 cases of mitochondrial DNA depletion syndrome, a condition that saps energy from the organs and muscles, leaving patients’ lungs so weak that they can only breathe with a ventilator.

He has lived in a London hospital since he was eight weeks old.

In March, doctors told his parents, Connie Yates and Chris Gard, that they should withdraw their child from the ventilator, as there was nothing else they could do, but the parents refused–mostly on the grounds that an untried experimental treatment was available in the United States.

They found an eminent doctor willing to try the unproven therapy, and supporters have helped them raise $1.7 million dollars to pay for it.

But the hospital, in accordance with British health law, fought the parents in court to prevent further treatment, and in early June, England’s Supreme Court agreed with the hospital. This week, the European Court of Human Rights—the court of last appeal—refused to overturn that decision, sealing Charlie’s fate.

Without going into what is best for the patient in this particular case, what would be different if Charlie were covered by a private insurance policy?
 
This is government health insurance. They'll pay for everything, and what they won't pay for you can't pay for.

DEATH PANEL: Judge decrees infant must die, parents forbidden to take him home

Without going into what is best for the patient in this particular case, what would be different if Charlie were covered by a private insurance policy?
Private health insurance would not pay for this treatment.

I suppose the real issue here is the court's denial of treatment elsewhere. I am not a lawyer nor do I know anything about health law in the USA, so I wonder if any lawyers here can comment on whether a hospital would petition against this therapy and be successful in the USA.
 
Private health insurance would not pay for this treatment.

Private insurance would not say "you are hereby ordered to not pay for it yourself."
But the judge's decision is not based on payment.
He's got this idea that maybe Charlie would not benefit from being used in a medical experiment that would at best extend a miserable life, at worst cause pain without any benefit.

Nothing to do with insurance.
 
Without going into what is best for the patient in this particular case, what would be different if Charlie were covered by a private insurance policy?
Private health insurance would not pay for this treatment.

I suppose the real issue here is the court's denial of treatment elsewhere. I am not a lawyer nor do I know anything about health law in the USA, so I wonder if any lawyers here can comment on whether a hospital would petition against this therapy and be successful in the USA.

Likely yes. They could in Canada. It isn't about health insurance. It is about child abuse. The state can step in when the parents do something like this to make the child suffer irresponsibly and irrationally, despite their hearts being in the right place. Its that same sort of ruling that has children taken into state custody away from parents who think their kids are possessed by demons etc, only this is the secular version.
 
Anyone else get the feeling the US doctor may be taking advantage of grieving parents with deep pockets?
 
Anyone else get the feeling the US doctor may be taking advantage of grieving parents with deep pockets?

The money was crowd-funded after the fact. Still, offering to use a treatment that hasn't even been tested on mice yet, and that has major theoretical road-blocks on a child that he hadn't even examined is a little skeevy. He did back down pretty quickly after seeing the full medical records, even if he's still offering to do the 'treatment'.
 
Private insurance would not say "you are hereby ordered to not pay for it yourself."
But the judge's decision is not based on payment.
He's got this idea that maybe Charlie would not benefit from being used in a medical experiment that would at best extend a miserable life, at worst cause pain without any benefit.

Nothing to do with insurance.

The judge is involved at all because of who is paying the medical bills right now. That means it does have something to do with insurance.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone else get the feeling the US doctor may be taking advantage of grieving parents with deep pockets?

The money was crowd-funded after the fact. Still, offering to use a treatment that hasn't even been tested on mice yet, and that has major theoretical road-blocks on a child that he hadn't even examined is a little skeevy. He did back down pretty quickly after seeing the full medical records, even if he's still offering to do the 'treatment'.

Yeah, it is an experimental treatment. The worst that could happen is that the patient might die. Wait...
 
But the judge's decision is not based on payment.
He's got this idea that maybe Charlie would not benefit from being used in a medical experiment that would at best extend a miserable life, at worst cause pain without any benefit.

Nothing to do with insurance.

The judge is involved at all because of who is paying the medical bills right now. That means it does have something to do with insurance.

That is absolutely false. The judge is involved because the doctors at the hospital are arguing that the best interests of their (minor, and thus protected by the state) patient were not being recognized by his parents.


Anyone else get the feeling the US doctor may be taking advantage of grieving parents with deep pockets?

The money was crowd-funded after the fact. Still, offering to use a treatment that hasn't even been tested on mice yet, and that has major theoretical road-blocks on a child that he hadn't even examined is a little skeevy. He did back down pretty quickly after seeing the full medical records, even if he's still offering to do the 'treatment'.

Yeah, it is an experimental treatment. The worst that could happen is that the patient might die. Wait...

No, the thing that would happen is that the patient would suffer horribly for a few months and then will definitely die. Even the doctor who is trying to administer the treatment isn't arguing against the fact that this child will die soon. The treatment is to possibly extend his life by weeks (maybe months) and maybe regain some brain function before he dies. Slightly improved brain function that will likely make him feel even more pain and suffering than he already is, but not enough for him to do much else - he has major, irreversible brain damage.

Notice that I posted from the court ruling (a compassionate, level-headed explanation of the facts of the case), while you posted from a nasty clickbait article with "DEATH PANEL" in all caps in the title. It's telling.
 
But the judge's decision is not based on payment.
He's got this idea that maybe Charlie would not benefit from being used in a medical experiment that would at best extend a miserable life, at worst cause pain without any benefit.

Nothing to do with insurance.

The judge is involved at all because of who is paying the medical bills right now. That means it does have something to do with insurance.
The judge is involved because the NHS has a legally defined duty to do what is best medically for the patient, and has the expertise to make that determination; But the parents have the right to have the courts review the medical decision, and to confirm that all reasonable medical steps have been considered by qualified doctors, and that the opinions offered do reflect the scientific consensus.

The fact that the NHS is also the body that pays for treatment is irrelevant; And the NHS doesn't pay any patient's bills - there are no bills for patients. The various regional NHS trusts get a budget from the government, and spends that budget on various costs - Hospital buildings, staff, equipment, pharmaceuticals, etc; Only in the rare case of a patient with completely unique medical need would it be possible to even identify what a particular patient is costing the NHS. This lack of accounting bureaucracy is one of the major areas of cost saving in the NHS, and one of the reasons why British healthcare costs half as much as US healthcare, for similar outcomes. For the vast majority of patients, nobody in the NHS knows or cares what that particular patient costs the system. Even in this case, I doubt anyone knows the full cost of treating this one individual, although some of the unique special services or treatments may have known costs.

The NHS is a radically different model of healthcare from anything in the US, and trying to map what the NHS does to what a US hospital, doctor, or insurer might do in similar circumstances is futile.
- - - Updated - - -

Anyone else get the feeling the US doctor may be taking advantage of grieving parents with deep pockets?

The money was crowd-funded after the fact. Still, offering to use a treatment that hasn't even been tested on mice yet, and that has major theoretical road-blocks on a child that he hadn't even examined is a little skeevy. He did back down pretty quickly after seeing the full medical records, even if he's still offering to do the 'treatment'.

Yeah, it is an experimental treatment. The worst that could happen is that the patient might die. Wait...

No, the worst that could happen is that the patient's pain and suffering might be prolonged and/or worsened needlessly. The patient's death has been assessed by experts to be inevitable; That the family believes the experts to be wrong, and that a doctor outside the NHS is prepared to accept a very large sum of money to buck the expert consensus, is (according to the law) not sufficient reason to risk increasing the suffering of this patient prior to his inevitable death.
 
But the judge's decision is not based on payment.
He's got this idea that maybe Charlie would not benefit from being used in a medical experiment that would at best extend a miserable life, at worst cause pain without any benefit.

Nothing to do with insurance.

The judge is involved at all because of who is paying the medical bills right now. That means it does have something to do with insurance.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone else get the feeling the US doctor may be taking advantage of grieving parents with deep pockets?

The money was crowd-funded after the fact. Still, offering to use a treatment that hasn't even been tested on mice yet, and that has major theoretical road-blocks on a child that he hadn't even examined is a little skeevy. He did back down pretty quickly after seeing the full medical records, even if he's still offering to do the 'treatment'.

Yeah, it is an experimental treatment. The worst that could happen is that the patient might die. Wait...

If that were my son he'd already be dead and buried.

How is it that some people are so selfish that they still only care about themselves when someone else is suffering without hope of recovery? Charlie is no longer a person for some people, just a political football. Typical horseshit.
 
There is no such thing as a Death Panel in the NHS - insofar as such a thing is defined as a bunch of people who decide whether or not a specific patient should be treated based on the cost of his treatment.

Such Death Panels exist in the US, where insurance companies make these calls; But the idea that they are a feature of the NHS or similar UHC systems is simply a lie - and the idea that they do NOT exist in the US system is also a lie. The propagandists are telling you that black is white, and that white is black. The question is, why do you believe their lies?

Under the NHS, specific treatments may be unavailable to any patient, for cost reasons; Where this occurs, patients can access these treatments privately, if they can afford to. There is no barrier to accessing private treatment, other than (in rare cases such as the OP) where such treatment is not in the best medical interests of a patient who is not able to give informed consent to it (as in the case of a minor).

Under the US system, specific treatments may be made unavailable to specific patients for cost reasons, with the decision made by an insurance company, and not a medical professional. Again, there is no barrier to accessing private treatment, if you can raise the money yourself; And under the US system, it is less likely that a medically unsuitable treatment would be denied on medical grounds - because there is no qualified professional body on the spot with the authority and the money to fight poor decisions by anguished parents in the court. The state might intervene to protect a child in such circumstances, but this protection is far less likely than under the NHS.

Fighting this in the courts is not free - the NHS is presumably paying quite a lot in legal bills, in order to protect this patient from his ignorant parents. This is not a cost saving measure, it is an act of humanity.

Insofar as 'Death panels' are a thing, they are a feature of the US for-profit model, wherein an individual patient might be denied treatment by an accountant, purely to save money. This doesn't happen in the NHS; if a treatment is available on the NHS at all, it is available to any person who needs it.
 
But the judge's decision is not based on payment.
He's got this idea that maybe Charlie would not benefit from being used in a medical experiment that would at best extend a miserable life, at worst cause pain without any benefit.

Nothing to do with insurance.

The judge is involved at all because of who is paying the medical bills right now. That means it does have something to do with insurance.
That's silly. THe doctors would resist the parents' decision no matter who's paying for it. It'd be a lawsuit any way it came to pass.

Someone's flogging their healthcare agenda at the expense of reality, here.
Yeah, it is an experimental treatment. The worst that could happen is that the patient might die. Wait...
Read the first judge's decision.
The worst that could happen is a great deal more suffering for this child, with no real expectation of benefits realized that would justify the suffering.
 
Private health insurance would not pay for this treatment.

Private insurance would not say "you are hereby ordered to not pay for it yourself."
I did not say that it did. Neither did the gov't health insurance. A judge made that decision based on a petition from the hospital and the facts of the case and the prospective treatment.

As a matter of fact, you ignored the part of the response that read "I suppose the real issue here is the court's denial of treatment elsewhere. I am not a lawyer nor do I know anything about health law in the USA, so I wonder if any lawyers here can comment on whether a hospital would petition against this therapy and be successful in the USA. "
 
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