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Kim Davis - Kentucky's theocratic ruler

I find it interesting that much of this thread is more interested in vilifying the character of Ms. Davis, than it is in looking at the legal and valid moral issues involved. The vilification of an obscure county clerk in a postage stamp sized county in Kentucky tells us much about the motives of some of her haters, and is the source of mangled perceptions. ...
Your defense of bigotry, religious intolerance and stupidity is unconvincing. Ms. Davis swore to uphold the law. She does not get to define "the law". It does not matter whether "the law" is established by a legislature or the judiciary - it is the law of the land. Ms. Davis's beliefs have not been compromised and no one is making her believe anything different. She is simply being expected to carry out the secular duties of her office. According to your ridiculous reasoning, she would be within her rights to refuse to issue any marriage licenses if she believed interracial marriages or interfaith marriages violated "God's law".
 
I find it interesting that much of this thread is more interested in vilifying the character of Ms. Davis, than it is in looking at the legal and valid moral issues involved. The vilification of an obscure county clerk in a postage stamp sized county in Kentucky tells us much about the motives of some of her haters, and is the source of mangled perceptions. ...
Your defense of bigotry, religious intolerance and stupidity is unconvincing. Ms. Davis swore to uphold the law. She does not get to define "the law". It does not matter whether "the law" is established by a legislature or the judiciary - it is the law of the land. Ms. Davis's beliefs have not been compromised and no one is making her believe anything different. She is simply being expected to carry out the secular duties of her office. According to your ridiculous reasoning, she would be within her rights to refuse to issue any marriage licenses if she believed interracial marriages or interfaith marriages violated "God's law".

^^^ This.

Sent from four counties west of Rowan County.
 
Give her airfare to IS held territory. They're fighting for god's law there too. She should be right at home.

She's just a bigot who wants to have her cake and eat it too. All gain, no pain.
 
maxparrish said:
First, she swore to execute her legal duties under the law that existed, not the yet to be discovered (invented)...
This has been trotted out here and elsewhere as if it were somehow a novel experience for legal precedent to change after a public servant has been sworn into office. One might almost say that such an occurrence is foundational to how our form of government works.

Would you be so kind as to explain how your point here is any sort of excuse for her to refuse to comply and yet still keep her job?
 
Yeah, but there is nothing holding her to the job. It's cheaper still and more judicious for all those with conscience problems with the new law to resign their jobs since the job required an oath from the holder to enforce ALL the laws...not just the ones they approve of.

But no. Such people are hypocrites. Their consciences apparently don't come before their paychecks and this is why there is a problem. LOGICALLY the answer is for her to resign. But she's greedy and doing all she can to twist her thinking so she gets to force the state to cow-tow to her desires, while not serving the public she swore to serve and still get paid for it.

I find it interesting that much of this thread is more interested in vilifying the character of Ms. Davis, than it is in looking at the legal and valid moral issues involved. The vilification of an obscure county clerk in a postage stamp sized county in Kentucky tells us much about the motives of some of her haters, and is the source of mangled perceptions.

First, she swore to execute her legal duties under the law that existed, not the yet to be discovered (invented), "Constitutional" law found in the head by Justice Kennedy. So she is not a hypocrite just because her prior oath conflicts with her current stance on a new "law".

She was sworn in 4 months ago. Gay marriage rights were rapidly approaching and there is documentation and admission from her that she knew it was coming. She was not ignorant of the change in law. Her oath says she will uphold the LAW. This presumes that the officer recognizes the process of law and legality of laws.

Davis assumed she could pick and choose which laws she was to follow, like she picks and chooses what her bible tells her to do.

She is wrong.

Second, there seems to be 'forum myths' in some folk's posts. Let's be reminded that the facts are, but not limited to:

- Kim Davis decided to NOT issue ANY marriage licenses to any couple, rather than violate her beliefs. The effect of their choice was to get out of the marriage business. Davis, as well as her staff, believed it would protect their religious rights without discriminating against anyone.

Under whose authority did she make that decision? That's not her call. She doesn't make the rules of who she serves. The state does.

- All six deputies agreed. All felt it was a violation of their religious conscious.

Actually she ordered them to not issue the licenses. So obviously, some would have had they not been forbidden by her to do so. And since her deputies are not elected and COULD be fired, I can see how they would be reluctant to go against the flow. Regardless, her deputies' opinions are irrelevant. Like her, they're there to issue licenses in the name of the STATE, not themselves.

- Couples were referred to the seven neighboring counties - a short drive. None of the couples suing lacked transportation.

Why should people, who live in the county and pay taxes to pay the salary of their county clerks, have to go elsewhere? SHE is breaking the law, not them. Why should they be the ones to be inconvenienced?


- The County Executive Judge can sign licenses during the absence of the Clerk.

Guess she should have asked him to do so. Except she didn't want him to.

- Davis continues to be in jail because her attorneys won't assure the judge that she will not interfere with the issuance of licenses if released.

Yep. Which means she will. So, she needs to sit her butt in jail.

Best way to get rid of these little theocratic ayatollahs like Davis is to make the license something you can get online. There. Problem solved. The county clerk's office is no longer necessary. They all lose their jobs. The taxpayers save money and don't have to run the gauntlet of their local county clerk's religious judgmental tyranny when they want service.

And I agree that we ought to remove ayatollahs of every stripe, theocratic or secular.

We need more secular ayatollahs, not less.

But there are ways to nullify folks who won't execute the law (assuming, for example, Kentucky counties are required to issue marriage licenses). The judge might have, for example, issued an order that she not return to her office (and put a federal marshal in charge of checking) and then directed the County Executive Judge to approve the licenses with his authorizing statement. None needed to be threatened with jail (such as her clerks), and none jailed.

So the judge should make an exception for her? Why? The rest of us go to jail for ignoring several court orders. What makes her special? Her religion?

Finally, one should note that 57 of Kentucky's 120 County Clerks have expressed their religious concerns to the Governor (and 2 or 3 others have also refused to issue licenses). Because this "law" was not created through a local and democratic process, but passed down by the secular demigods of the SUPREMES, the State could not have developed either a consensus for gay marriage nor a method of religious accommodation - one of the pitfalls of non-democratic law making.

Um wrong. The laws Kentucky created to keep gays from marrying each other were deemed in violation of the Constitution. Actually the laws DID allow gays to get married. The laws Kentucky voters passed tried to interfere with the 14th amendment It was rightfully slapped down.

Imperial rule by invented law, by judges, result in this kind of social fractiousness.

The fractiousness is caused by ignorant bigoted folks who don't know the laws of their own nation and greedy folks who have 'strong religious convictions' but not so strong that they will give up their job for them.
 
Would you be so kind as to explain how your point here is any sort of excuse for her to refuse to comply and yet still keep her job?
Are we also paying for her "defense" while she keeps getting paid for a job she is not doing? A smart judge would remove her from her teat. She's a spoiled little supremacist, pure and simple. If she's bent on "suffering" we should legally oblige her.
 
So what ARE the issues?

The supreme court has decided that it's illegal to discriminate against homosexuals as far as banning their marriage goes.
Davis thinks she has a religious duty to discriminate against homosexuals as far as marriage licenses go.
Kentucky and the courts say that she cannot be the County Clerk AND discriminate against homosexuals in this manner.
She wants to keep the job that she says she cannot do, and do only part of it, thus discriminating against homosexuals.

She's lost the lawsuit. But still claims that she doesn't have to abide by the decision.

It's very much like she's struck out but won't leave the batter's box. God, she says, doesn't want her to leave the batter's box.
The referee says she struck out. The coach says she struck out. The gaming commissioner won't listen to her appeal that she still has a right to swing at the balls.
Eventually she's made it necessary for burly guys to remove her from the batter's box so that the game can go on.
 
So what ARE the issues?

The supreme court has decided that it's illegal to discriminate against homosexuals as far as banning their marriage goes.
Davis thinks she has a religious duty to discriminate against homosexuals as far as marriage licenses go.
Kentucky and the courts say that she cannot be the County Clerk AND discriminate against homosexuals in this manner.
She wants to keep the job that she says she cannot do, and do only part of it, thus discriminating against homosexuals.

She's lost the lawsuit. But still claims that she doesn't have to abide by the decision.

Very much like dictators who decide to hold 'free elections' but then when voted out, refuse to abide by the vote.

She's OK with filing a lawsuit and respecting and obeying the judges but only if they rule in her favor. Otherwise she says she's not obliged to follow the law.

IOW, she's right by simple dint of her saying she is and if anyone disagrees with her, they're wrong.

Pathological.

It's very much like she's struck out but won't leave the batter's box. God, she says, doesn't want her to leave the batter's box.
The referee says she struck out. The coach says she struck out. The gaming commissioner won't listen to her appeal that she still has a right to swing at the balls.
Eventually she's made it necessary for burly guys to remove her from the batter's box so that the game can go on.

The burly guys showed up and escorted her to jail. Where more burly guys and gals are watching over her as she sits in her cell.
 
You really can't have a person with that much pathology doing the job she is supposed to do. I still think clerk work should be civil service...and then she could be fired.
 
Ben Carson is worried about Kim Davis:
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I find it interesting that much of this thread is more interested in vilifying the character of Ms. Davis, than it is in looking at the legal and valid moral issues involved. The vilification of an obscure county clerk in a postage stamp sized county in Kentucky tells us much about the motives of some of her haters, and is the source of mangled perceptions.

She put her religious beliefs above the law, of course we villify her.

First, she swore to execute her legal duties under the law that existed, not the yet to be discovered (invented), "Constitutional" law found in the head by Justice Kennedy. So she is not a hypocrite just because her prior oath conflicts with her current stance on a new "law".

The notion that marriage is only between men and women is a religious one, of course it fell to the 1st amendment.

- Kim Davis decided to NOT issue ANY marriage licenses to any couple, rather than violate her beliefs. The effect of their choice was to get out of the marriage business. Davis, as well as her staff, believed it would protect their religious rights without discriminating against anyone.

But her job description involves issuing marriage licenses. It avoids discrimination but it's not doing her job.

- All six deputies agreed. All felt it was a violation of their religious conscious.

Then fire them all.

- Couples were referred to the seven neighboring counties - a short drive. None of the couples suing lacked transportation.

So? That's not a proper answer.

- The County Executive Judge can sign licenses during the absence of the Clerk.

Were licenses being issued? No? Then don't talk about whether someone else could do it.

- Davis continues to be in jail because her attorney's won't assure the judge that she will not interfere with the issuance of licenses if released.

Then she belongs there.


And while you're ranting about the lack of democratic law-making, note that gay marriage has popular support. If it were put to the nationwide ballot it probably would win.
 
That's just shifting it around. I don't see much improvement...

Uh, that's what poor people use when they can't afford internet access. How is that 'shifting it around'?
If the poor people can get to the library, they can probably also get to the county clerks office. I believe it was suggested that removing the licensing duties from county clerks and "putting in on the intranet" as an attempt to put the licensing process beyond the reach of said clerks' religious objections. Leaving aside any other considerations about the merits or lack thereof for the suggestion in question, if clerks can viably offer religious objections then so could librarians. County clerks are there to perform exactly this sort of work, and if we deem this sort of work necessary (and I think we generally do) then why not just continue to expect them to do it?
 
Uh, that's what poor people use when they can't afford internet access. How is that 'shifting it around'?
If the poor people can get to the library, they can probably also get to the county clerks office. I believe it was suggested that removing the licensing duties from county clerks and "putting in on the intranet" as an attempt to put the licensing process beyond the reach of said clerks' religious objections. Leaving aside any other considerations about the merits or lack thereof for the suggestion in question, if clerks can viably offer religious objections then so could librarians. County clerks are there to perform exactly this sort of work, and if we deem this sort of work necessary (and I think we generally do) then why not just continue to expect them to do it?

The library and internet response is not a matter of poor folks getting there, but not having to run the gauntlet of the religious beliefs of people in the clerk's office.

Have you never used the computer at the library?

At the library, you do it privately. No one there knows what you're doing and you're not under scrutiny. All you do is sign up on a list to use the internet. You don't have to tell the librarians why you're using it.
 
She appealed to SCOTUS. They told her to fuck off and now she is appealing her punishment. This woman is either really dumb or her lawyers are feeding her a crock of crap for advice... or both.
 
She appealed to SCOTUS. They told her to fuck off and now she is appealing her punishment. This woman is either really dumb or her lawyers are feeding her a crock of crap for advice... or both.

Lawyers in this situation get paid whether they win or lose. Of course they are going to advise her to keep (having them) fighting for her (lost) cause.
 
She appealed to SCOTUS. They told her to fuck off and now she is appealing her punishment. This woman is either really dumb or her lawyers are feeding her a crock of crap for advice... or both.
Since this is not a tort the lawyers are not working on contingency. Which means somebody is paying for them - would it be the county or her fans (possibly through an organization like Alliance Defending Freedom or some such)?
 
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