Kissing in public and consent

[Tigers!]

With the death of George Mendoza on 10/02/2019 the persons in the picture above are both dead.

It got me wondering as to how such an incident today i.e. random fellow grabs random lady and kisses her would be handled today?

With the proliferation of 'consent' policies and other such thoughts what would happen to them esp. to the man? Would they be let us with a warning or hauled before a tribunal somewhere?

 

[Cobalt]

The kiss would likely not become an iconic photo if it happened today. Perhaps, though not terribly likely, some sort of reprimand would have been issued to George Mendonsa.

Does that make you sad or disappointed? Why?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, but they'd let black people march in the parade.

 

[southernhybrid]

When that kiss happened, people didn't realize that the soldier was drunk and just grabbed the first women he saw. The kiss was glamorized because nobody knew the truth about it. I don't think it would happen today. If it did, it would be condemned.

There is nothing wrong with consensual public kissing, but now we know that the kiss in that photo wasn't consensual.

 

[thebeave]

I'm always a bit confused about the current consent rules regarding giving/receiving a kiss. My story, (I'm in my mid-50's now)

A number of times in my life, a woman has spontaneously and unexpectedly kissed me without my explicit consent. I'd say most times it happened it was well received by me, or at worst, a big "meh". Occasionally, it was a "thumbs down". Was I sexually assaulted? I actually feel OK about it all and don't feel victimized at all, TBH.

On the flip side, I have kissed women that I never really officially received consent for (I'm not talking girlfriends here or even necessarily officially dating). It seemed like a good idea at the time, but I never really knew for 100% that it was welcomed. It was always somewhat of a gamble that it would be welcomed. I'd say it was welcomed pretty much every time. I have never in my life officially asked any woman if it was OK if I kissed her. Am I a sexual assaulter? I don't even know anymore what proper protocol is to this kind of thing.

 

[dismal]

I don't have a problem saying it's wrong to kiss someone without their consent. Public, not public, whenever.

I'm willing to cut some slack, or think it's even worse, based on context. If the guy was truly experiencing unbridled joy at having just heard the war was won, then it's not as bad as if he's just some perv taking his shot. Ultimately in this case the girl has said she didn't mind.

 

[Toni]

Today, it would be condemned. Ten years ago? Probably not. Never mind that no consent forms for publicizing the photo were obtained and today, the back story would definitely be published along with the photo....

The photo was iconic because it captured the moment of a spontaneous expression of joy and depicted two iconic heroic figures: A military person in uniform, all the better because he was a sailor and Pearl Harbor opened the war for the US and she, although a dental assistant and not a nurse, appeared to be a nurse which is why he grabbed her and kissed her. Male and female iconic heroes of the war. It was obviously a spontaneous outburst of emotion on his part and she was obviously overwhelmed. What was not obvious is that she did not particularly welcome the kiss.

There is no sexual grabbing in the photo and none seems to have occurred.

I wasn't alive when this photo was taken and wouldn't be for years yet. But I have been in situations where there was spontaneous sharing of hugs, embraces and perhaps even kisses (although not the dramatic dip). Even without drugs or alcohol being involved. Think concerts, big games, rescues, etc. There was nothing sexual about any of that. It was simply just an outpouring of emotion, in a positive way.

Which is vastly different than if it were accompanied by grabbing of breasts, crotches, or anything else that is generally deemed sexual.

 

[ruby sparks]

The kiss would likely not become an iconic photo if it happened today. Perhaps, though not terribly likely, some sort of reprimand would have been issued to George Mendonsa.

Does that make you sad or disappointed? Why?

A bit of both. It would be PC gone a bit bonkers, imo. As, imo, is this:

 

[ruby sparks]

I'm always a bit confused about the current consent rules regarding giving/receiving a kiss. My story, (I'm in my mid-50's now)

A number of times in my life, a woman has spontaneously and unexpectedly kissed me without my explicit consent. I'd say most times it happened it was well received by me, or at worst, a big "meh". Occasionally, it was a "thumbs down". Was I sexually assaulted? I actually feel OK about it all and don't feel victimized at all, TBH.

On the flip side, I have kissed women that I never really officially received consent for (I'm not talking girlfriends here or even necessarily officially dating). It seemed like a good idea at the time, but I never really knew for 100% that it was welcomed. It was always somewhat of a gamble that it would be welcomed. I'd say it was welcomed pretty much every time. I have never in my life officially asked any woman if it was OK if I kissed her. Am I a sexual assaulter? I don't even know anymore what proper protocol is to this kind of thing.

Lots of women ran up to soldiers and kissed them upon being liberated from the nazis. Sometimes it was very elderly women. Maybe a young soldier didn't especially want a kiss from an old woman.

 

[ruby sparks]

Interesting side note: apparently the (Jewish) woman in the famous pic ( (Greta Zimmer Friedman) had escaped Nazi Austria in 1939 with her sisters. Their parents died in the holocaust.

 

[ruby sparks]

It got me wondering as to how such an incident today i.e. random fellow grabs random lady and kisses her would be handled today?

With the proliferation of 'consent' policies and other such thoughts what would happen to them esp. to the man? Would they be let us with a warning or hauled before a tribunal somewhere?

The circumstances would have to be taken into account, and the response of the person being kissed. People obviously, under ordinary circumstances, can't just grab strangers in the street (or anywhere) and kiss them.

 

[ruby sparks]

Double post.

 

[ruby sparks]

A number of times in my life, a woman has spontaneously and unexpectedly kissed me without my explicit consent. I'd say most times it happened it was well received by me, or at worst, a big "meh". Occasionally, it was a "thumbs down". Was I sexually assaulted? I actually feel OK about it all and don't feel victimized at all, TBH.

Generalising, I don't think a man being kissed by a stranger or without prior consent and a woman being kissed by a stranger or without prior consent are equivalent.

On the flip side, I have kissed women that I never really officially received consent for (I'm not talking girlfriends here or even necessarily officially dating). It seemed like a good idea at the time, but I never really knew for 100% that it was welcomed. It was always somewhat of a gamble that it would be welcomed. I'd say it was welcomed pretty much every time. I have never in my life officially asked any woman if it was OK if I kissed her. Am I a sexual assaulter? I don't even know anymore what proper protocol is to this kind of thing.

Me too (occasionally). When I was young, I doubt if I asked beforehand. But I never grabbed. Essentially, it's probably a bit of a gamble, as you say. Go carefully, I'd suggest. Try to establish consent, even if non-verbal.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm always a bit confused about the current consent rules regarding giving/receiving a kiss. My story, (I'm in my mid-50's now)

A number of times in my life, a woman has spontaneously and unexpectedly kissed me without my explicit consent. I'd say most times it happened it was well received by me, or at worst, a big "meh". Occasionally, it was a "thumbs down". Was I sexually assaulted? I actually feel OK about it all and don't feel victimized at all, TBH.

Well, as long as you were okay with it... let's just extrapolate.

The photo is iconic because it visually represents joy that the worst war in the globe's history was over and our troops were back.

What is lost in translation is that the people don't know each other and the woman apparently didn't have a say in the matter. There seems to be some defensiveness about the photo and the guy, but one might take notice that no one else is taking such liberties in the photo.

Did the guy commit a terrible crime? No. But this is that sense of entitlement that some guys seem to have from time to time... now as well as then.

 

[ronburgundy]

When that kiss happened, people didn't realize that the soldier was drunk and just grabbed the first women he saw. The kiss was glamorized because nobody knew the truth about it.

Nearly everyone always knew he just grabbed the first women he saw. That is what made it so popular and glamorous to people, because it was a spontaneous act of joy and celebration. Since I first saw and heard of it in the 70's it has always been described that way. If it was just a guy and his girlfriend, no one would really have cared.
And the other people smiling and at laughing at it in the street around them (including Mendoza's girlfriend and future wife) saw him just walk up and grab the nurse. So, people knew it was non-consensual, they just didn't really think about it in those terms, especially given the context. It's also important to put it in it's context (that thing over-reacting dogmatists of all stripes love to ignore). People were engaged in spontaneous joy in the streets with lots of hugging of strangers and the kiss wasn't about sex. There are also reports of many similar acts that day, which reflect both the context of that day and the larger cultural norms, such as the fact that most leading-men in film grabbed and kissed women, not merely without consent but under protest.

I don't think it would happen today. If it did, it would be condemned.

For sure, but that's not entirely a good thing. It is a good that on a normal day, a guy grabbing and kissing a stranger would be more condemned than in the 40's when that kind of thing was standard leading-man behavior. It's not so good that many people today would condemn it just as strongly, even in this similar context of an extremely uncommon moment of spontaneous public celebration, and tell the women she should feel assaulted even if she didn't mind and thought "It's just a kiss and he meant no harm."
Today he would likely be arrested and/or fired, even if he had just hugged her in that situation.

 

[thebeave]

I'm always a bit confused about the current consent rules regarding giving/receiving a kiss. My story, (I'm in my mid-50's now)

A number of times in my life, a woman has spontaneously and unexpectedly kissed me without my explicit consent. I'd say most times it happened it was well received by me, or at worst, a big "meh". Occasionally, it was a "thumbs down". Was I sexually assaulted? I actually feel OK about it all and don't feel victimized at all, TBH.

Well, as long as you were okay with it... let's just extrapolate.

The photo is iconic because it visually represents joy that the worst war in the globe's history was over and our troops were back.

What is lost in translation is that the people don't know each other and the woman apparently didn't have a say in the matter. There seems to be some defensiveness about the photo and the guy, but one might take notice that no one else is taking such liberties in the photo.

Did the guy commit a terrible crime? No. But this is that sense of entitlement that some guys seem to have from time to time... now as well as then.

Would you say this was a sexual assault and that he can/should be brought up on charges? Or is there some clause in sexual assault laws that have exceptions for when the guy is super happy and/or kinda drunk?

 

[ruby sparks]

Some better examples maybe. More 'everyday'.

('Hilarious' prank video)

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akOt1xgSANY[/YOUTUBE]

 

[ruby sparks]

Would you say this was a sexual assault and that he can/should be brought up on charges? Or is there some clause in sexual assault laws that have exceptions for when the guy is super happy and/or kinda drunk?

If he was a sailor nowadays, in the USA or the UK, and just on a night (or day) out (on leave or whatever) and the woman made a complaint, I'd say he might get into a bit of bother, yes, if he just grabbed a passing woman. And I'd go along with that. Sailors, drunk or otherwise, on leave, can't just grab women in the street and kiss them, surely?

I'm not sure what formal charges, if any, I think should be applicable. If it was just a kiss, maybe just a reprimand? And an apology (to the woman)?

As to the wrongdoing. Harassment? Yeah, could be deemed that. Sexual assault? I'm not sure, I would doubt it crosses that threshold.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Jerry: If you could, say, touch her breast as part of the 'kiss hello', then I think I could see the value in it a little bit better.
Elaine: How about an 'intercourse hello'? How would that be?
Jerry: Elaine, now you're just being ridiculous.
Seinfeld, The Kiss Hello, Season 6

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

A bit of a personal oddity maybe, but I actually find kissing to be the most intimate action one can do with another person, moreso than intercourse. So to me, grabbing somebody and kissing them without consent may as well be rape.