Ladybucks

[AthenaAwakened]

I love John Oliver

 

[maxparrish]

I love John Oliver

You know a whole bunch of this has been debunked long ago, right?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I love John Oliver

You know a whole bunch of this has been debunked long ago, right?

no, I don't know that

But you believe that

And I'll deny you not your faith.

 

[thebeave]

What a load of crap. We've been down this road so many times. Obama continues to trot this out just to get the women vote. And you all fall for it.

Even a lot of man hating feminists, like Hannah Rosin, have thrown in the towel on this tired old canard.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

 

[RavenSky]

I love John Oliver

 

[maxparrish]

What a load of crap. We've been down this road so many times. Obama continues to trot this out just to get the women vote. And you all fall for it.

Even a lot of man hating feminists, like Hannah Rosin, have thrown in the towel on this tired old canard.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

Athena, et. al., don't know that. They don't even want to know it, or so it would seem. Long ago I learned you can't reason someone out of something that they, originally, never reasoned themselves into. And this, like so many false left wing memes has become the left's folklore - a mythology as resilient as that of fundi's who think dinosaurs roamed the earth 6,000 years ago.

 

[arkirk]

What a load of crap. We've been down this road so many times. Obama continues to trot this out just to get the women vote. And you all fall for it.

Even a lot of man hating feminists, like Hannah Rosin, have thrown in the towel on this tired old canard.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

Athena, et. al., don't know that. They don't even want to know it, or so it would seem. Long ago I learned you can't reason someone out of something that they, originally, never reasoned themselves into. And this, like so many false left wing memes has become the left's folklore - a mythology as resilient as that of fundi's who think dinosaurs roamed the earth 6,000 years ago.

It ain't folklore, Mr. Max. It's a fact that apples versus adams apples, the adams apples gets more loot often for one hell of a lot less work. You have a whole pile of false memes. One of them is that human rights is a bunch of crap. You really need to tank up on a little empathy and stop getting so damned mad when Athena "trots out" a few facts.

 

[RavenSky]

Is it really weird that the term "lady bucks" made it into one of my dreams last night - in it's correct context?

 

[Mumbles]

Wait, what's so bad about cucumbers? I even like cucumber sandwi *gets punched by everyone*.

Okay, I don't.

I do *kinda* question the White House stats, if only because the feds are notorious about pay grades, and it *could*, in theory, simply be that women weren't taken as seriously decades ag *gets punched in the face by everyone*

Actually, y'all are pretty much right about that too, at this point.

 

[Derec]

Is it really weird that the term "lady bucks" made it into one of my dreams last night - in it's correct context?

I thought this was the correct context of "lady bucks".

Otherwise, what beave and max said.

G. N. P. S.: It's "its", not "it's". See here.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The stat is that the average pay for women working full time is 77% of the average pay for men working full time. It isn't for the same work, and "full time" is not clearly defined. Even when "Full time" men tend to work more hours than women do.

Or do you have evidence I am not aware of where women are doing the exact same jobs in the same companies side by side with men and earning 77% of what men get paid?

If you do, you'd have a very easy lawsuit I'd think.

If instead the case is that women tend to gravitate towards lower paying careers, tend to have less experience because they voluntarily take time off to raise children, etc... not so much.

I do think we may want to take a look at why women would gravitate towards lower paying careers, if that is so, and I also think that many of those careers should be looked at by society and we should reconsider why they are paid what they are. Teachers are the prime example. Why are they paid so low?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I gotta know

Did you guys not watch the video or did you watch, somehow confuse it with The Rocky Horror Picture Show and decide to act it out in real time?

 

[Arctish]

The stat is that the average pay for women working full time is 77% of the average pay for men working full time. It isn't for the same work, and "full time" is not clearly defined. Even when "Full time" men tend to work more hours than women do.

Or do you have evidence I am not aware of where women are doing the exact same jobs in the same companies side by side with men and earning 77% of what men get paid?

If you do, you'd have a very easy lawsuit I'd think.

It should be a fairly easy lawsuit but our Supreme Court Justices have ruled that an employee only gets 180 days following the bosses' discriminatory pay decision to file a lawsuit, and never mind the fact she might not realize she's being screwed until years later, as was the case with Lilly Ledbetter.

 

[laughing dog]

Athena, et. al., don't know that. They don't even want to know it, or so it would seem. Long ago I learned you can't reason someone out of something that they, originally, never reasoned themselves into.

This wins the World Cup for the most ironic post over the last 4 years.

 

[Emily Lake]

FYI - I can't watch the video at work, so I might be missing a specific point.

That said, it's a little from column A and a little from column B. The gap does exist... but it's also not as large as it's often quoted to be.

So. First, let's acknowledge that there's a gap.

Some of the gap in pay for women exists for the exact same reason that a gap in pay for minorities exists: institutional lethargy. In the past, there was a very clear and institutionally supported difference in pay. Women were simply paid less because they were believed to be worth less. Women were hired for lower-paying positions, and weren't considered for higher-paying jobs because women were believed to be incapable of doing those sorts of jobs.

But that was all in the past, right? We've changed since then, haven't we?

Well, yes. Most of us, anyway. For the most part, people as individuals don't actively discriminate against women in the workplace. And for he most part, companies don't actively discriminate against women. But time does. It takes time to move through the ranks. Please allow me to provide an illustrative analogy:

Imagine that there is a school, with grades 1 through 6. Each year, 10 boys and 10 girls enter grade 1, but only the boys are allowed to progress to grade 2. Each kid stays in school for 6 years, and then leaves. So at any given time, there are 60 boys and 60 girls in school. But due to the discriminatory nature of the system, the girls are always all in grade 1, whereas the boys are evenly spread. So the average grade of girls is 1 and the average grade of boys is 3.

Now imagine that the restriction on girls is lifted, but it really only applies to girls who are newly entering the school, because the ones who've already been there are seen as "too old" to progress to the next grade. Each year, 10 girls will progress to the next grade, along with 10 boys... but the average grade won't even out very quickly because of those legacy girls who are stuck under the old system's structure. After three years, you'll have 10 boys in each grade, just as before, and an average grade of 3 for the boys. But for the girls, you'll have 10 girls in grades 1 through 4, and an extra 20 girls in grade 1 left over from the old system. The girls will have an average grade of 2 now. That's an improvement over an average grade of 1... but it still hasn't closed the gap. The gap will take another 2 years to close.

That of course, is a very simple example, and illustrates only the one single dynamic at play. But that dynamic is there. Not all gender discrimination in the workplace disappeared overnight on the day women won the right to vote. Even if all other possible causes of discrepancy are controlled for and no other sources of discrepancy exist, the lethargy of time will still pay a part.

It is naive, however, to assume that there are no actual cases of gender discrimination in the workplace. Look at the executives and leadership of companies throughout the US, and it's fairly obvious that it is predominantly male. Some of this may be due to the aforementioned lethargy of the system, but some of it is not. Leadership is still a male dominated role in our society. And leadership pays more.

The gap as is often presented is usually overstated. The type of work and the number of hours aren't always controlled for. It's often not an apples-to-apples comparison. And from an employer's perspective, there may be a valid argument made that women put their families and their children first, and thus are less dedicated than male employees often are. That may be true.

At the end of the day, however, it still remains true that men are more likely to be promoted. A gap in pay between women and men still remains... as does a gap between the types of jobs available.

It's changing, and that's a good thing. But pretending that it doesn't exist doesn't help that occur. Being aware of the flaws in the system and being aware of the nature of the institution is a step in the right direction.

 

[Jayjay]

FYI - I can't watch the video at work, so I might be missing a specific point.

A-ha! Typical woman, browsing the internet and chatting away at forums when you should be working.

Men would never do such a thing and therefore deserve to be paid oh shit its the boss

 

[Toni]

The stat is that the average pay for women working full time is 77% of the average pay for men working full time. It isn't for the same work, and "full time" is not clearly defined. Even when "Full time" men tend to work more hours than women do.

Or do you have evidence I am not aware of where women are doing the exact same jobs in the same companies side by side with men and earning 77% of what men get paid?

If you do, you'd have a very easy lawsuit I'd think.

If instead the case is that women tend to gravitate towards lower paying careers, tend to have less experience because they voluntarily take time off to raise children, etc... not so much.

I do think we may want to take a look at why women would gravitate towards lower paying careers, if that is so, and I also think that many of those careers should be looked at by society and we should reconsider why they are paid what they are. Teachers are the prime example. Why are they paid so low?

As a matter of fact, at one point, for a number of years, my sister did exactly the same job as male co-workers, put in as many hours or more on the same projects, taking the lead on some---and got paid less. Ostensibly because her job title was slightly different but it turned out that indeed there were one or two men with the same job title who were paid more. After spending some time trying to convince tptb that she should get the same pay, she took our father's advice and simply insisted that her job title and subsequently the same pay.

That's been some years ago but it was a very common practice: to give men and women different job titles and different pay grades but the same job duties. One job title was of course in line for more promotions. Women were assumed to be just killing time until marriage and kids, never mind that a woman may have no such plans. A man on the marriage/kid tract was seen as more responsible.

It's different now but at my workplace, a woman who has a baby is still seen as less dedicated and more likely to leave. All data to the contrary.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Interesting. Do you have any evidence beyond these anecdotes that this went on. I would tend to bet that it indeed did. How about that it still does? I find that less likely.

And do you have any evidence on this?

It's different now but at my workplace, a woman who has a baby is still seen as less dedicated and more likely to leave. All data to the contrary.

I wouldn't be surprised if women who have had babies ARE on average more likely to leave. The data contradicts that?

 

[thebeave]

The stat is that the average pay for women working full time is 77% of the average pay for men working full time. It isn't for the same work, and "full time" is not clearly defined. Even when "Full time" men tend to work more hours than women do.

Or do you have evidence I am not aware of where women are doing the exact same jobs in the same companies side by side with men and earning 77% of what men get paid?

If you do, you'd have a very easy lawsuit I'd think.

If instead the case is that women tend to gravitate towards lower paying careers, tend to have less experience because they voluntarily take time off to raise children, etc... not so much.

I do think we may want to take a look at why women would gravitate towards lower paying careers, if that is so, and I also think that many of those careers should be looked at by society and we should reconsider why they are paid what they are. Teachers are the prime example. Why are they paid so low?

As a matter of fact, at one point, for a number of years, my sister did exactly the same job as male co-workers, put in as many hours or more on the same projects, taking the lead on some---and got paid less. Ostensibly because her job title was slightly different but it turned out that indeed there were one or two men with the same job title who were paid more. After spending some time trying to convince tptb that she should get the same pay, she took our father's advice and simply insisted that her job title and subsequently the same pay.

That's been some years ago but it was a very common practice: to give men and women different job titles and different pay grades but the same job duties. One job title was of course in line for more promotions. Women were assumed to be just killing time until marriage and kids, never mind that a woman may have no such plans. A man on the marriage/kid tract was seen as more responsible.

It's different now but at my workplace, a woman who has a baby is still seen as less dedicated and more likely to leave. All data to the contrary.

Well, if we're playing the anecdote game, my grampa smoked a pack of cigarettes a day from age 16, and he lived to be 102 years old. So, that stuff about smoking causing cancer is just crap. In fact, I'd say that smoking improves your health!