Last Jedi was good and you're insane

[Underseer]

I really agree with this guy's analysis, but the best part is when he takes apart those idiotic criticisms.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

From a non-misogynist POV regarding The Last Jedi. Honestly, Star Wars works better if you just treat it like Twilight and accept that it is more of a kids movie than an adults movie... and you have the Rifftrax for it.

The Good

Pretty much everything involving both Rei and Kylo, with their character development.
Stayed within the lines regarding the long distance communication.
Rose!
Was its own movie instead of another remake.

The Bad

The entire '20 mph' spaceship chase scene plot line.
The super hacker search that happens to find another super hacker.
Rose needlessly saving Jar Jar Finn's life!

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Also, everything in that casino was way too Phantom Menace.

Also, if that whole hyperspace ramming of ships is actually a thing, why not deal with Star Destroyers and Death Stars by buying a bunch of old junkers and blasting a few dozen at each of them on autopilot instead of making it look like having the Empire and First Order spend more than $20 for a battleship is a good investment? I find it hard to accept both that this is a thing and that this is the first time anyone has tried it.

Also, if Force Ghosts can blow things up with lightning bolts, then why not have them do that more than once?

Also, why did that one guard of Snoke's forget that he had a blade in both hands five seconds earlier when he kidney punched Kylo Ren?

 

[Underseer]

From a non-misogynist POV regarding The Last Jedi. Honestly, Star Wars works better if you just treat it like Twilight and accept that it is more of a kids movie than an adults movie... and you have the Rifftrax for it.

The Good

Pretty much everything involving both Rei and Kylo, with their character development.
Stayed within the lines regarding the long distance communication.
Rose!
Was its own movie instead of another remake.

The Bad

The entire '20 mph' spaceship chase scene plot line.

Necessary for Poe's character arc (and to a lesser extent, Finn and Rose's)

The super hacker search that happens to find another super hacker.

Addressed in the above video.

Rose needlessly saving Jar Jar Finn's life!

Acknowledged as a problem in the above video as it creates narrative dissonance with Holdo's sacrifice. Why was her sacrifice good, but Finn's sacrifice bad? It was good in what it said about the Resistance and why anyone should bother joining the rebellion at all, it was good from the standpoint of Finn and Rose's character arcs, but it did create narrative/thematic dissonance with Holdo's story.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Necessary for Poe's character arc (and to a lesser extent, Finn and Rose's)

No it wasn't. A viable and completely sensical plot line could have been used to give Poe an arc. Also, Poe is an out of control idiot that doesn't learn.

Addressed in the above video.

I don't have time to watch videos like this. The Super Hacker search was a poorly scripted. You have the task, find a super hacker. You send the only people available to do it, but they are completely over their head. So the script writers do the right thing, and they can't find the person, don't even come remotely close. [Rom]BUUUUUUUUUUT[/Rom] what do we have here? Another guy that can hack?! Awesome! Problem solved! Sure, completely not viable, but we wrote ourselves into a needless corner so it'll have to do.

Rose needlessly saving Jar Jar Finn's life!

Acknowledged as a problem in the above video as it creates narrative dissonance with Holdo's sacrifice.

No, as Finn is one of the worst characters in the Star Wars franchise. Granted, he probably does well with the kids, hence my opening comment, but the character is completely cliche and hopeless.

Why was her sacrifice good, but Finn's sacrifice bad? It was good in what it said about the Resistance and why anyone should bother joining the rebellion at all, it was good from the standpoint of Finn and Rose's character arcs, but it did create narrative/thematic dissonance with Holdo's story.

See, I don't get that. There s no reason for a Rose / Finn thing here. They hardly know each other, and Rose knows that Finn tried to runaway, something we know Rose detests. Especially after losing her sister in one of the most stupid attack scenes I've ever seen, and as a result Poe should have been executed.

Granted, the Rebellion is down to an amount of people that can squeeze comfortably into a Toyota Sequoia, so maybe Rose is trying to keep her options as multiple as possible.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Also, everything in that casino was way too Phantom Menace.

Also, if that whole hyperspace ramming of ships is actually a thing, why not deal with Star Destroyers and Death Stars by buying a bunch of old junkers and blasting a few dozen at each of them on autopilot instead of making it look like having the Empire and First Order spend more than $20 for a battleship is a good investment? I find it hard to accept both that this is a thing and that this is the first time anyone has tried it.

Yup. If ramming is a viable means of taking out both ships big ships will be very careful in dealing with smaller ships and will not get close enough to be rammed. Even without using junkers on autopilot you will see things like this--the captain of a ship that knows they are in a completely hopeless situation very well might ram. There was a US kamikaze in WWII--damaged aircraft, he wasn't going to make it back to the carrier. If he jumped the only hope of being picked up was the very fleet he was attacking. Or the not exactly unheard of tactic in Vietnam of a dying soldier pulling the pin on a grenade and lying on it--turning his body into a booby-trap for the VC forces.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Also, everything in that casino was way too Phantom Menace.

Also, if that whole hyperspace ramming of ships is actually a thing, why not deal with Star Destroyers and Death Stars by buying a bunch of old junkers and blasting a few dozen at each of them on autopilot instead of making it look like having the Empire and First Order spend more than $20 for a battleship is a good investment? I find it hard to accept both that this is a thing and that this is the first time anyone has tried it.

Yup. If ramming is a viable means of taking out both ships big ships will be very careful in dealing with smaller ships and will not get close enough to be rammed.

But wouldn't the force of such an impact destroy the solar system they were in?

 

[steve_bank]

It wouldn't be SW without chase scenes. Along with sound effects in the vacuum of space.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

But wouldn't the force of such an impact destroy the solar system they were in?

Pretty much. It does also raise other questions like "Why build the Death Star?". If your ship is still physically in the universe while traveling in hyperspace, then ramming that ship into a planet at relativistic speeds would obliterate the planet even if your ship is rather small. If it's not physically in the universe, then you can't ram Star Destroyers with it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But wouldn't the force of such an impact destroy the solar system they were in?

Pretty much. It does also raise other questions like "Why build the Death Star?". If your ship is still physically in the universe while traveling in hyperspace, then ramming that ship into a planet at relativistic speeds would obliterate the planet even if your ship is rather small. If it's not physically in the universe, then you can't ram Star Destroyers with it.

Disagree.

We don't see exactly how the Star Wars drives work but note how they make a sudden jump to hyper and when they exit back out they're again at sane speeds. That says that hyper does not actually involve extreme velocity. Thus my interpretation of what's going on:

Your hyper velocity has no bearing on your impact energy.

If you hit a planet you're knocked back into real space before impact, you hit only with your real space velocity. Might kill a city, not a planet.

With a hyper vs hyper ram both ships are in hyper, you ram as if you were both in real space. She turned to face the star destroyer before ramming, thus she was closing at the insystem speed of her ship plus the insystem speed of a star destroyer. Given that there were survivors I would say her aim wasn't too good, it was a grazing hit rather than dead center.

The only drives that are truly dangerous are the ones where you are still in our universe and retain your velocity when you turn off the drive. For example, the Honor Harrington universe. Insystem drives are several hundred gravities and build true velocity. Combatants are very careful not to put a stray missile into a planet.

 

[OLDMAN]

As a very limited fan of the Star Wars movies, let me speak as an outsider with no dog in this fight. All the movies are short on substance but pretty good on visuals. It is a kid's movie line. Space cowboys, not much more. They have a broad appeal and make lots of money, but no one should really care about them to the point of getting mad.

 

[Ford]

As a very limited fan of the Star Wars movies, let me speak as an outsider with no dog in this fight. All the movies are short on substance but pretty good on visuals. It is a kid's movie line. Space cowboys, not much more. They have a broad appeal and make lots of money, but no one should really care about them to the point of getting mad.

I'm kind of the opposite of you. While I haven't got into the "extended universe" (the novels, animated shows, etc.) I am a fan of the movies going back to the originals. Are they kids movies? Well I was a kid when I saw them when they debuted (got the toys, and even the bed sheets), and they appealed to me, so I guess that's fair. Lucas was trying to capture the sense of wonder and imagination he had as a kid watching serials, and update it with state of the art special effects.

And it worked. Spectacularly so. It is still fun to go back and watch those movies, because they were so entertaining (even with the changes Lucas felt he had to make).

The prequels IMO failed in part because they weren't about trying to capture that wonder and imagination Lucas had as a kid watching serials, but rather him trying to recapture the magic of his own movies. He was too wrapped up in revisiting his own vision.

These new ones are one step further removed from the appeal of the originals. They're trying to make movies that try to recapture that magic, but like a copy of an old VHS tape the quality degrades the more copies you make. The Force Awakens is a copy of a copy, and The Last Jedi is a copy of a copy of a copy.

For me (and this is an unpopular opinion among fans) I think Rogue One is the best of the new films. It looks and feels like the originals, but tells a new story we didn't know.

 

[repoman]

The longer a fictional Sci-Fi/Fantasy world has to spin stories the higher the risk of having technology and powers that break internal logic and strategy of previous installments.

So, blaming the people who have made the latest film for this is not entirely fair. Lucas did not even have the Rebels responding to an initial attack by the Empire in ANH before blowing up the Death Star until his wife suggest he add it to give the Rebels a moral ground.

Disney should have had "world building" continuity experts on deck to force Rian Johnson to make him do rewrites if they took technology/tactic plotholes seriously.

Small breaks in the internal logic are not a deal breaker, but they add up like papercuts.

 

[phands]

I hated all the star wars movies. Hate the plots, hate the characters.


They're just swords and sorcery or knights in armour with different swords an bigger horses.

 

[repoman]

I hated all the star wars movies. Hate the plots, hate the characters.


They're just swords and sorcery or knights in armour with different swords an bigger horses.

And that is part of the problem with adding on to Star Wars, they can't really have major hard Sci-Fi additions and especially not explanation to the world building or it undermines the fantasy aspect.

 

[steve_bank]

I hated all the star wars movies. Hate the plots, hate the characters.


They're just swords and sorcery or knights in armour with different swords an bigger horses.

Actually Lucas said he was inspired by the cowboy western serials he grew up with. Solo was the grey cowboy who in the end does the right thing.. Luke the orphan kid schooled by the old experienced gunfighter. The rebels against the technologically superior empire was Vietnamese vs Americans, as he said in an interview.

 

[Narapoia]

https://youtu.be/f83D18xL7VE

Mr Plinkett summarises it nicely.

 

[steve_bank]

The running gun-blaster fight scenes the first movie were right out of an old western cowboy movies.

 

[bilby]

As a very limited fan of the Star Wars movies, let me speak as an outsider with no dog in this fight. All the movies are short on substance but pretty good on visuals. It is a kid's movie line. Space cowboys, not much more. They have a broad appeal and make lots of money, but no one should really care about them to the point of getting mad.

I'm kind of the opposite of you. While I haven't got into the "extended universe" (the novels, animated shows, etc.) I am a fan of the movies going back to the originals. Are they kids movies? Well I was a kid when I saw them when they debuted (got the toys, and even the bed sheets), and they appealed to me, so I guess that's fair. Lucas was trying to capture the sense of wonder and imagination he had as a kid watching serials, and update it with state of the art special effects.

And it worked. Spectacularly so. It is still fun to go back and watch those movies, because they were so entertaining (even with the changes Lucas felt he had to make).

The prequels IMO failed in part because they weren't about trying to capture that wonder and imagination Lucas had as a kid watching serials, but rather him trying to recapture the magic of his own movies. He was too wrapped up in revisiting his own vision.

These new ones are one step further removed from the appeal of the originals. They're trying to make movies that try to recapture that magic, but like a copy of an old VHS tape the quality degrades the more copies you make. The Force Awakens is a copy of a copy, and The Last Jedi is a copy of a copy of a copy.

For me (and this is an unpopular opinion among fans) I think Rogue One is the best of the new films. It looks and feels like the originals, but tells a new story we didn't know.

I agree.

One major problem with all Science Fiction movie prequels (and IMO Rogue One handled this a bit better than ep I thru III, though it was still a problem) is that the SFX technology in the real world advances in leaps and bounds, leading to the depiction of tech in the prequel that is far superior to that of the original movie. Audiences for SciFi demand the latest and greatest SFX, so you can't do without them altogether - Rogue One would have looked very clunky if the effects had been limited to those used in A New Hope (and indeed the physical model building skills probably no longer exist to do those 'old style' effects well).

Lucas attempted to address this to some extent by re-working the original trilogy, but as the fan backlash shows, mucking around with established and well loved movies after the fact can create even larger problems.

Ultimately, you can to some extent conceal the inevitable and unavoidable SFX issues by having a sufficiently good story to tell that the audience isn't too distracted by the anomalies. But you need a good story, or your prequel is going to struggle.