• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Laws of Nature... emergent property of matter or immaterial rules imposed upon matter?

Abandoning the premises is to just leave the planet and talk about make-believe nonsense. Like things existing with no cause.

The premises lead to a paradox.

We are stuck with it.

Not if the universe has an infinite past, or if some things just spontaneously happen without cause. It's not proven that either is untrue; The entire universe might be a spontaneous quantum fluctuation, or the past could be infinite. Your personal distaste for these positions is not evidence of anything.

Universes with infinite pasts are make believe entities without logic or of course evidence.

Putting them forth as an answer to the paradox is ridiculous.

The paradox is there.

It cannot be gotten around by simply inventing magic universes. Inventing a magic universe is no different from inventing a magic old man.
 
Not if the universe has an infinite past, or if some things just spontaneously happen without cause. It's not proven that either is untrue; The entire universe might be a spontaneous quantum fluctuation, or the past could be infinite. Your personal distaste for these positions is not evidence of anything.

Universes with infinite pasts are make believe entities without logic or of course evidence.

Putting them forth as an answer to the paradox is ridiculous.

The paradox is there.

It cannot be gotten around by simply inventing magic universes. Inventing a magic universe is no different from inventing a magic old man.

Your personal distaste for these positions is not evidence of anything.
 
Universes with infinite pasts are make believe entities without logic or of course evidence.

Putting them forth as an answer to the paradox is ridiculous.

The paradox is there.

It cannot be gotten around by simply inventing magic universes. Inventing a magic universe is no different from inventing a magic old man.

Your personal distaste for these positions is not evidence of anything.

True, but invoking magic universes is not an answer to any question.
 
Your personal distaste for these positions is not evidence of anything.

True, but invoking magic universes is not an answer to any question.

It's not my answer to any question; It's just a strawman you have built to save yourself from admitting that you might be wrong about something you firmly believe. There's nothing magic about the possibility of an infinite past; Nor is there anything magic about the possibility of a spontaneous event with no cause. 'magic' is not synonymous with 'disliked by untermensche', no matter how much you desperately want it to be.
 
True, but invoking magic universes is not an answer to any question.

It's not my answer to any question; It's just a strawman you have built to save yourself from admitting that you might be wrong about something you firmly believe. There's nothing magic about the possibility of an infinite past; Nor is there anything magic about the possibility of a spontaneous event with no cause. 'magic' is not synonymous with 'disliked by untermensche', no matter how much you desperately want it to be.

No it is something you posited.

Not if the universe has an infinite past

So to answer the paradox of a universe with an infinite past you merely posit a universe with an infinite past.

It is beyond stupid.
 
It's not my answer to any question; It's just a strawman you have built to save yourself from admitting that you might be wrong about something you firmly believe. There's nothing magic about the possibility of an infinite past; Nor is there anything magic about the possibility of a spontaneous event with no cause. 'magic' is not synonymous with 'disliked by untermensche', no matter how much you desperately want it to be.

No it is something you posited.

Not if the universe has an infinite past

So to answer the paradox of a universe with an infinite past you merely posit a universe with an infinite past.

It is beyond stupid.

A universe with an infinite past isn't a paradox.

....aaaaaaand we are back to the old 'untermensche doesn't understand infinity, but refuses to even consider the possibility that his understanding is deeply flawed' discussion. *Yawn*
 
Do you think E=Mc^2 is an invention or discovery?

Hint, it's the referent to the equation and not the equation itself that I ask about.

The moon is a discovery. That sucker would be there even if no one in all of history (or prehistoric times) looked up to notice it. The word, "moon," well, that's something altogether different.

An equation is to a word as the facts of the world is to the referent of the word. Don't think for a minute that the moon is literally on a piece of paper just because someone writes the word moon on paper, and don't think for a moment that a law of nature is really what's written because a notational representation is written.

It's so easy to think of a law as written when we speak in terms of there being a saying "letter of the law" when speaking about the law being as it's written, yet the fact of the matter is, the law doesn't go up in flames when the law as notated in written form goes up in flames housed in a law book.

The laws of nature are most assuredly independent of man. The physics behind natural occurances are just what they are, and they would of been the way they are whether man ever came upon the scene of life or not. The fact that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared is a fact of the world that was discovered by man, just as the existence of that orbiting body we all call the moon is a factual current state of affairs.

And people think statements are the laws. That's right up there with confusing the word with what is referenced by it. Right up there with confusing an equation with what it's about. Confusing a statement (the dang statement itself) with what the statement is all about. Confusion everywhere.

Pictures of unicorns aren't unicorns. Picture of daddy ain't daddy. Laws of nature are not statements.

Ok, so I guess the issue is you don't understand what has been argued against using the expression 'laws of nature'.

The issue is that the expression 'laws of nature' connotes, and inevitably suggests, a certain view of nature which has become obsolete. The term 'law' by itself suggests that there are two distinct things: there is the law itself as one thing, and then there is what the law is meant to apply to, as something else. If we tried to conceive of a law of nature in this sense, we would have the law itself as one thing, and then some natural phenomenon which would somehow obey the law. This conception is now obsolete.

So, the issue is that the expression 'laws of nature' is now seen as inappropriate for expressing the modern perspective. So, the problem with the expression 'laws of nature' is that it is no longer believed to have, to have ever had, any referent. Laws of nature simply are no longer believed to exist, according to the modern perspective.

We obviously still use scientific expressions, such as E = mc2, which are considered valid and thought of as having a proper referent. However, the nature of this referent is that it is inextricably a part of the rather complex process that allows human beings to represent nature in the first place. This process is itself inextricably dependent on the nature of human beings. So the assumption is that scientific expressions relative to nature are somehow always dependent on human nature.

That doesn't mean that these expressions don't have a referent. Each is thought of as having a proper referent. However, this referent is no longer assumed to be some fundamental phenomenon. Rather, it's an expression of the interaction between some unknown fundamental phenomenon and the human-dependent process of scientific experimentation and discovery. As such, the referent is best thought of as epiphenomenon. It doesn't exist outside our representation of the process of scientific experimentation. This process is itself an integral part of nature, but it is apart from any fundamental phenomenon which is somehow driving the way that scientific experiment unfold.

That's not to say that it is useless. In fact, the main difference between today's perspective and that of scientists in the past, is that scientific expressions and theories are now valued as useful whereas they where in the past valued as being true to the physical world (to the extent that they were assumed as correct). So nowadays, it's all about observed regularities. Whether there is anything like regularities at a fundamental level is therefore anybody's guess. The driving rationale for scientific discoveries is that experiments can be replicated and theories can do some useful work for humans. To insists on laws of nature is to needlessly perpetuate an obsolete and misleading notion that's misrepresenting the current scientific perspective.
EB
 
No it is something you posited.

Not if the universe has an infinite past

So to answer the paradox of a universe with an infinite past you merely posit a universe with an infinite past.

It is beyond stupid.

A universe with an infinite past isn't a paradox.

....aaaaaaand we are back to the old 'untermensche doesn't understand infinity, but refuses to even consider the possibility that his understanding is deeply flawed' discussion. *Yawn*

It is stupidity if it is invented as an answer to the paradox. As stupid as inventing an old man with magic powers.

That you don't understand it is not surprising.

To posit a universe with an infinite past is to posit an irrationality. Something that can't possibly exist.

To think it is an explanation of something is to be be very stupid.
 
Abandoning the premises is to just leave the planet and talk about make-believe nonsense. Like things existing with no cause.

The premises lead to a paradox.

We are stuck with it.

Not if the universe has an infinite past
And there's also the (logical) possibility that time is finite but circular (or cyclical), which obviates the need both for an initial cause and the need for an infinite regress of causes.

, or if some things just spontaneously happen without cause. It's not proven that either is untrue; The entire universe might be a spontaneous quantum fluctuation
It's perfectly logical.

Different kinds of universes could conceivably emerge independently without a cause. Once a universe exists, it just behaves according to its own nature, which might features causal relations between events. We are in an apparently causal universe so we think it's the default position. But not necessarily.
EB
 
Not if the universe has an infinite past
And there's also the (logical) possibility that time is finite but circular (or cyclical), which obviates the need both for an initial cause and the need for an infinite regress of causes.

There is no end to the imaginary things you have to pretend could exist, but can't, to get around the paradox.

Why don't you just invent a magic old man with a white beard and be done with it?
 
No it is something you posited.

Not if the universe has an infinite past

So to answer the paradox of a universe with an infinite past you merely posit a universe with an infinite past.

It is beyond stupid.

A universe with an infinite past isn't a paradox.

....aaaaaaand we are back to the old 'untermensche doesn't understand infinity, but refuses to even consider the possibility that his understanding is deeply flawed' discussion. *Yawn*

It is stupidity if it is invented as an answer to the paradox. As stupid as inventing an old man with magic powers.

That you don't understand it is not surprising.

To posit a universe with an infinite past is to posit an irrationality. Something that can't possibly exist.

To think it is an explanation of something is to be be very stupid.
Explain why it cannot exist.
 
No it is something you posited.

Not if the universe has an infinite past

So to answer the paradox of a universe with an infinite past you merely posit a universe with an infinite past.

It is beyond stupid.

A universe with an infinite past isn't a paradox.

....aaaaaaand we are back to the old 'untermensche doesn't understand infinity, but refuses to even consider the possibility that his understanding is deeply flawed' discussion. *Yawn*

It is stupidity if it is invented as an answer to the paradox. As stupid as inventing an old man with magic powers.

That you don't understand it is not surprising.

To posit a universe with an infinite past is to posit an irrationality. Something that can't possibly exist.

To think it is an explanation of something is to be be very stupid.
Explain why it cannot exist.

We have to agree on what infinite time means first.

I say it is time without end, exactly like an infinite future if the universe does not ever "die". Something without end or limit.
 
No it is something you posited.

Not if the universe has an infinite past

So to answer the paradox of a universe with an infinite past you merely posit a universe with an infinite past.

It is beyond stupid.

A universe with an infinite past isn't a paradox.

....aaaaaaand we are back to the old 'untermensche doesn't understand infinity, but refuses to even consider the possibility that his understanding is deeply flawed' discussion. *Yawn*

It is stupidity if it is invented as an answer to the paradox. As stupid as inventing an old man with magic powers.

That you don't understand it is not surprising.

To posit a universe with an infinite past is to posit an irrationality. Something that can't possibly exist.

To think it is an explanation of something is to be be very stupid.
Explain why it cannot exist.

We have to agree on what infinite time means first.

I say it is time without end, exactly like an infinite future if the universe does not ever "die". Something without end or limit.

Except that in this case it is a half open time interval with an open left limit (without a beginning and with and end (now)).
 
Except that in this case it is a half open time interval with an open left limit (without a beginning and with and end (now)).

That is not infinite time in the past.

That is a miraculous beginning.
 
And there's also the (logical) possibility that time is finite but circular (or cyclical), which obviates the need both for an initial cause and the need for an infinite regress of causes.

There is no end to the imaginary things you have to pretend could exist, but can't, to get around the paradox.

Why don't you just invent a magic old man with a white beard and be done with it?
I say it is logically possible just to mean that I don't know why it could not have happened. It's just a fact that I don't know it could not have happened. Thus, I'm not claiming I know any particular thing. I'm just reporting a particular lack of knowledge.

You, on the contrary, are claiming you know something, specifically that an infinite regress of causes, or an infinite past, etc. could not have happened.

So you would have to explain why an infinite regress of causes can't happen, but I seem to remember we tried that route before and effectively got nowhere at the end of an impressively long thread.

So can you explain in just one post why an infinite regress of causes could not have happened?
EB

**************************

Oh well, never mind.
EB
 
Last edited:
You, on the contrary, are claiming you know something, specifically that an infinite regress of causes, or an infinite past, etc. could not have happened.

Again, what is needed is an objective definition of infinite time. One that cannot be moved away from.

I say infinite time is exactly like the future if the universe never stops. It is time without end or limit.

If we can agree to this definition we can proceed.
 
You, on the contrary, are claiming you know something, specifically that an infinite regress of causes, or an infinite past, etc. could not have happened.

Again, what is needed is an objective definition of infinite time. One that cannot be moved away from.

I say infinite time is exactly like the future if the universe never stops. It is time without end or limit.

If we can agree to this definition we can proceed.
Good enough for me. I think it's everybody's notion of what an infinite past would be.

So you have one post to explain yourself. Can you do it?
EB
 
Again, what is needed is an objective definition of infinite time. One that cannot be moved away from.

I say infinite time is exactly like the future if the universe never stops. It is time without end or limit.

If we can agree to this definition we can proceed.
Good enough for me. I think it's everybody's notion of what an infinite past would be.

So you have one post to explain yourself. Can you do it?
EB

It doesn't take much.

To say that time without end or limit has ALREADY passed is irrational.

It cannot have happened. If it did that would mean there was a limit to it.
 
What "things" are you talking about?
You know, eternally existing beings, substrate, and whatnot.

You have lost any connection to the world that exists where bodies at rest stay at rest unless acted upon.
Your belief that I am supernatural is interesting, but not pertinent to this thread.

This is some imaginary answer. No different from inventing a god.
Ok, so you imagine that I am an invented god. Still not pertinent to this thread.

No, it isn't. Something that travels an infinite amount of infinitesimal distances a second can travel -1/12 meters each second.

That is gibberish.
It's a joke about one value of the Riemann zeta function, set on an infinite plane, so each finite step is an infinitesimal. The point of the joke is that an infinite amount of infinitesimals can add up to a specific value....

If we have a string of causes and effects it cannot extend into the past infinitely. Because for every effect we need a cause and this can never end.
You're assuming that the cause/effects can occur at infinite and/or smooth speed.

Smooth would mean continuously, so a transition of an electron from one point to another would involve an infinite amount of infinitesimal movements.
 
It's a joke about one value of the Riemann zeta function, set on an infinite plane, so each finite step is an infinitesimal. The point of the joke is that an infinite amount of infinitesimals can add up to a specific value....

Meaningless gibberish in a conversation about something tangible like time.

Obviously time must be discreet.

If time could be infinitely divided you could not get from one moment to the next.

To go from one moment to the next requires going half way, then half again then half again....

If time could be infinitely divided you would never reach the next moment.
 
Back
Top Bottom