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Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

Interesting that you believe you are being used as a punching bag because I suggested that maybe white men should try to put themselves in the position of women, and especially women of color. Especially given the statistics re: domestic abuse. Asking for empathy in your mind = treating you as a punching bag. That says way more about you as a person than it does me or about your politics or mine or anybody's.
And you illustrate the problem: you don't even recognize that you're using him as a punching bag. It is not that you are asking for empathy, it is that you are asking white males to accept second class citizen status as compensation for past wrongs they had no part in committing.
Actual equality of opportunity does not mean second-class citizenship for white males, unless you think removing unearned white-male privilege is the same as making them second-class citizens. :rolleyes:
 
It's not clear it's really a derail though.
The UK Supreme Court ruling on the definition of "woman" is not obviously linked to the question of who Joe Biden should have chosen as his running mate in the 2024 United States presidential election; Nor to the question of which electricity generation technologies are the cleanest and/or safest.

If these discussions are not derails, then the definition of "derail" is so vague as to render the word entirely meaningless. Perhaps we could ask the UK Supreme Court to rule on what the word "derail" means in the context of the IIDB ToU...
 
You cought me mistyping. I obviously meant to write "than coal".
I know. But I am a big fan of malicious compliance, and it is much more entertaining to respond to what you said, than it would have been to respond to what you obviously meant.

I should apologise.

I probably shall, once I stop laughing.






Sorry.
 
I would say coal MINING is much cleaner than fracking.

Dig a hole. Dig out the coal. Put it in a truck and haul it away. Leave an ugly looking hole.

Fracking is drill numerous holes. Pump dangerous toxic chemicals into those holes. Pump out the gas, haul it away. Leave the dangerous chemicals to contaminate the ground and water for decades.
 
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Really? So a college local to me has a 70% non-white staff in an area that's over 50% white, and that doesn't indicate a problem to you?
What problem do you think it suggests?
CS did not say there's any problem it suggests. He asked P40 a question.
I didn’t say there was any problem. I asked CS a question.

Please stop assuming facts not in evidence.
Yes, yes, we're all familiar with your fondness for playing I'm-rubber-you're-glue, but save it for when you have a case. Apparently you need a refresher course on how interrogative words work in English.

"What problem do you think it suggests?" presupposes that there is a problem he thinks it suggests, just as if I'd asked you "Which wife did you beat?" I'd have been presupposing that you beat a wife. If someone wanted to ask whether you beat any of your wives at all, without presupposing that you did, then she'd just ask you "Did you beat any of your wives?", without using the word "Which". Likewise, if you had just been asking CS a question, without presuming there was a problem in CS's opinion, then you'd have written "Do you think it suggests a problem?", without using the word "What" -- and if you'd done that then I'd have just told P40 and bb they were assuming facts not in evidence, and left you out of it.
I asked a legitimate question, because I was interested in his view because I saw no issue there at all. After all., doesn't your pedantic analysis indicate the question "So a college local to me has a 70% non-white staff in an area that's over 50% white, and that doesn't indicate a problem to you?" presupposes problem?
Um, not seeing an interrogative word in there. Yes, I guess "white" is technically a "wh-word", but that's not what the phrase means. :devil:

So no, it doesn't appear to presuppose a problem with them not having enough white staffers. It appears to suppose that P40 had expressed having a problem with some other staff having not enough nonwhite staffers. It appears to be making inquiries to check if P40 has a double standard.

So what are you afraid of?
Bears. They're godless killing machines.

white-men.gif


In your rush to defend one of your ideological tribe, your double standard was exposed.
Perhaps you will show your work -- not seeing a double standard of mine, nor anyone of my "ideological tribe". Ideology is to ideas as Scientology is to science; and if I even had an "ideological tribe", CS wouldn't be it.

if you don't like your blatant double standards exposed, don't employ them.
Expose away, if you can -- how else am I to find out I have them and rid myself of them?

Finally, the childish refrain "I'm rubber, you're glue) means that whatever you say does not apply to me but it does apply to you. That does not apply in this instance, so please stop slandering me.
Sure it does -- you wrote "Please stop assuming facts not in evidence.", not because you had reason to think I'd done so, but because I'd accused you of the same.
 
And…up to that point, the only people considered ( for a major party) were white men with the exception of Geraldine Ferraro and Sarah Palin, both white. Certainly Palin was chosen because she had a female and it beggars belief that anyone who was not white would have been considered.
Considered? Try drafted. If he'd agreed to it Colin Powell would have been a shoe-in. For that matter, if he'd decided to go for the top spot himself he almost certainly would have been elected President in 2000.
But we’ll never know. Racism certainly would have played a role. That was certainly likely part of the calculus in choosing a running mate. My guess is also that he didn’t want the job. Because afaik, we never heard rumblings about him ready in the wings.
You didn't? You never heard about the Draft Colin Powell movement? Or that Dole considered him for running mate? No guess needed -- in 1995 Powell made it clear he didn't want the job, and again in 1999. Disappointed a lot of people in both parties.

 
In your rush to defend one of your ideological tribe, your double standard was exposed.
People keep accusing me of tribalism. But I'll defend anybody who's unfairly attacked. If there's somebody here who you guys think was unfairly attacked you think I ignored for tribal reasons, bring it to my attention and I'll look into it.

Right, for you, everything should be quotas for white heterosexual cisgendered men.
Why did you write that? Derec is against quotas in general. You knew that, didn't you? Your post appears to be character assassination. Attack the post, not the poster.
I said it because it is correct. There was never a time that quotas did not exist in this country. Prior to affirmative action and the civil rights movement, virtually all available spots, certainly for positions of authority, were reserved for white heterosexual cisgendered men, preferably WASP. Since that changed people like Derec are whining that their unearned privileges have been taken from them.
I.e., you said it because Derec is in your outgroup and like any good tribalist you regard your outgroup as interchangeable parts. You have no evidence against Derec; you simply lumped him in with the collective you classify as "people like Derec".
I have a ton of evidence — the contents of his posts.

Also he, and you it would appear, are the actual tribalists. I am anti-tribal, in favor of that dreaded DEI — Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. Derec is not against quotas. He is in favor of returning to quotas for white, heterosexual, cisgendered men. The evidence of this abounds from his posts.
"his posts" is not evidence. If a ton of evidence abounds, you'll have no difficulty producing a quote showing you're right. Furthermore, I've defended Derec's opponents from his attacks too. And furthermore, being in favor of "that dreaded DEI" is not evidence that you're anti-tribal; it just narrows down how you divide people into ingroup and outgroup.

I.e., you said it because Derec is in your outgroup and like any good tribalist you regard your outgroup as interchangeable parts. You have no evidence against Derec; you simply lumped him in with the collective you classify as "people like Derec". That there was never a time that quotas did not exist in this country is not a reason to think other people can't be in favor of quotas not existing merely because you aren't.
You're in the "anti-woke" ingroup. And you refuse to see your own tribalist behavior.
Further, it's impossible to remove emotion from politics. We're all attached to various political ideas because of emotion and pretending you're a super objective political thinker denies that fact.
"Anti-woke" is no more an ingroup than "non-Christian". We non-Christians have widely divergent views and we oppose one another's contrary views just as much as we oppose Christianity; it works the same way with wokism. Of course it used to be practically de rigueur for Christians not to recognize this, and just lump us all together as "Satan worshippers"; but that was evidence of Christians' own tribalism, not of non-Christians'. Now it all too often works the same way with wokism. I didn't accuse pood of tribalism because of his wokitude; I accused him of it because when challenged for evidence to support his attack on Derec, all he could come up with was stuff about "people like Derec".

Further, of course it's impossible to remove emotion from politics. Politics is intimately tied up with morality, and all moral judgments are emotion-based. As Hume noted, reason is the slave of the passions. For me to be a super objective political thinker doesn't in any way deny that fact. Reason in matters of politics and morality is like the tennis shoes in the old joke. "I don't need to run faster than the bear. I only need to run faster than you."
 
People keep accusing me of tribalism. But I'll defend anybody who's unfairly attacked. If there's somebody here who you guys think was unfairly attacked you think I ignored for tribal reasons, bring it to my attention and I'll look into it.
Riiight, because while you defend anyone who is "unfairly attacked", apparently you only come to that conclusion when a member of your tribe is "unfairly attacked".
 
Really? So a college local to me has a 70% non-white staff in an area that's over 50% white, and that doesn't indicate a problem to you?
What problem do you think it suggests?
CS did not say there's any problem it suggests. He asked P40 a question.
I didn’t say there was any problem. I asked CS a question.

Please stop assuming facts not in evidence.
Yes, yes, we're all familiar with your fondness for playing I'm-rubber-you're-glue, but save it for when you have a case. Apparently you need a refresher course on how interrogative words work in English.

"What problem do you think it suggests?" presupposes that there is a problem he thinks it suggests, just as if I'd asked you "Which wife did you beat?" I'd have been presupposing that you beat a wife. If someone wanted to ask whether you beat any of your wives at all, without presupposing that you did, then she'd just ask you "Did you beat any of your wives?", without using the word "Which". Likewise, if you had just been asking CS a question, without presuming there was a problem in CS's opinion, then you'd have written "Do you think it suggests a problem?", without using the word "What" -- and if you'd done that then I'd have just told P40 and bb they were assuming facts not in evidence, and left you out of it.
I asked a legitimate question, because I was interested in his view because I saw no issue there at all. After all., doesn't your pedantic analysis indicate the question "So a college local to me has a 70% non-white staff in an area that's over 50% white, and that doesn't indicate a problem to you?" presupposes problem?
Um, not seeing an interrogative word in there. Yes, I guess "white" is technically a "wh-word", but that's not what the phrase means. :devil:

So no, it doesn't appear to presuppose a problem with them not having enough white staffers. It appears to suppose that P40 had expressed having a problem with some other staff having not enough nonwhite staffers. It appears to be making inquiries to check if P40 has a double standard.
It is possible that is the case, but it is also possible, given the context and tenor of CS' posts in this thread, that CS presupposes a problem.
I
So what are you afraid of?
Bears. They're godless killing machines.

white-men.gif
Bears are something to be afraid of.
In your rush to defend one of your ideological tribe, your double standard was exposed.
Perhaps you will show your work -- not seeing a double standard of mine, nor anyone of my "ideological tribe". Ideology is to ideas as Scientology is to science; and if I even had an "ideological tribe", CS wouldn't be it.

if you don't like your blatant double standards exposed, don't employ them.
Expose away, if you can -- how else am I to find out I have them and rid myself of them?
Been there and done that.
Finally, the childish refrain "I'm rubber, you're glue) means that whatever you say does not apply to me but it does apply to you. That does not apply in this instance, so please stop slandering me.
Sure it does -- you wrote "Please stop assuming facts not in evidence.", not because you had reason to think I'd done so, but because I'd accused you of the same.
Wrong. I had every reason to know you had done so. However, I don't like to quarrel with anyone who quotes from "The Wrath of Becky".
 
And…up to that point, the only people considered ( for a major party) were white men with the exception of Geraldine Ferraro and Sarah Palin, both white. Certainly Palin was chosen because she had a female and it beggars belief that anyone who was not white would have been considered.
Considered? Try drafted. If he'd agreed to it Colin Powell would have been a shoe-in. For that matter, if he'd decided to go for the top spot himself he almost certainly would have been elected President in 2000.
But we’ll never know. Racism certainly would have played a role. That was certainly likely part of the calculus in choosing a running mate. My guess is also that he didn’t want the job. Because afaik, we never heard rumblings about him ready in the wings.
You didn't? You never heard about the Draft Colin Powell movement? Or that Dole considered him for running mate? No guess needed -- in 1995 Powell made it clear he didn't want the job, and again in 1999. Disappointed a lot of people in both parties.

I may have—those were years when I was juggling random sing kids and going to school. Not as tuned in politically then as now. I know how well Powell was respected and that there were those who wanted him to run for POTUS.
 
...
You guys are all assuming facts not in evidence. CS appears not to give two hoots whether the color of some staff reflects the color of the community. CS appears to have asked that question in an attempt to cross-examine P40 about his views on that sort of color-matching, most likely for the purpose of collecting evidence proving P40 has a racial double-standard.
Here is me, jumping in to respond to a post that you directed towards bilby ( and others). Guess what? This is a discussion board and whoever so desires can chime in, as I’m doing now and as you did in your post.

I understand that you want to express your support for someone whose statements you agree with. It’s good to stick up for people or ideas you care about.

That’s one of the reasons a lot of people post in support of basic human rights for non-white, non-cis, not straight, persons other than male. Including plenty of white males. For some, it’s a case of basic fairness and equality or maybe equity. And some people just like change.

Others post opposing some of those ideas because they think policies are unfair or ineffective or counter productive.
That's not what's been going on here, though. That's a self-congratulatory myth progressivism trains its believers to tell themselves about their interactions with the infidel. What you and other progressives here have been posting in support of, and what others have posted in opposition to, are not basic human rights. Where do you think you are, a same-sex-marriage thread? This is a thread about Affirmative Action. I.e., it's a squabble over the merits of progressives' prevailing practice of putting their thumb on the scale when individuals are being compared for purposes of selecting candidates for jobs, slots in colleges, contracts and so forth, in order to make up for the disadvantages candidates in selected groups face as a result of the lingering effects of other thumb-on-the-scale actions that had been previously taken against those groups. Progressives classify groups as oppressed or oppressor, privileged or underrepresented, advantaged or disadvantaged, call it what you will, and are here advocating that decision-makers apply quotas or points or extra consideration or what have you, on behalf of candidates in the selected groups -- the oppressed/underrepresented/disadvantaged groups. Having such extra considerations applied on ones behalf is not a basic human right. Mathematically, it doesn't work if all groups are selected. You can't put your thumb on the scale in favor of everybody. When you apply a preference for one race/sex/caste, that means you're applying a preference against some other race/sex/caste. So that means if Affirmative Action is a right at all, whatever kind of right it is is not a human right. Human rights are by definition the rights of all humans.

So a lot of people post in support of basic oppressed-caste rights for non-white, non-cis, not straight, persons other than male. Including plenty of white males. For some, it’s a case of basic fairness and equality or maybe equity to have rights for selected castes -- rights for which other castes need not apply. And some people just like change. (And, seeing as how such oppressed-caste rights have been the de facto law of the land for fifty-odd years, some people just don't like change.)

Others post opposing some of those ideas because they think policies are unfair or ineffective or counter productive, or violate basic human rights.

This dynamic, inevitably, couples with the near-universal motivation of people everywhere to be the heroes of their own narratives, to cause people who were trained by their mythology to think of themselves as supporting basic human rights but find themselves actually arguing in support of oppressed-caste rights against opponents who are in fact supporting basic human rights, to spin false narratives about the debate. They invent false descriptions of their opponents' positions. They invent false descriptions of their own positions. And they write revisionist histories of who said what, right there in the presence of the actual texts of the respective posts, texts which iidb helpfully keeps in plain view.
 
...
You guys are all assuming facts not in evidence. CS appears not to give two hoots whether the color of some staff reflects the color of the community. CS appears to have asked that question in an attempt to cross-examine P40 about his views on that sort of color-matching, most likely for the purpose of collecting evidence proving P40 has a racial double-standard.
Here is me, jumping in to respond to a post that you directed towards bilby ( and others). Guess what? This is a discussion board and whoever so desires can chime in, as I’m doing now and as you did in your post.

I understand that you want to express your support for someone whose statements you agree with. It’s good to stick up for people or ideas you care about.

That’s one of the reasons a lot of people post in support of basic human rights for non-white, non-cis, not straight, persons other than male. Including plenty of white males. For some, it’s a case of basic fairness and equality or maybe equity. And some people just like change.

Others post opposing some of those ideas because they think policies are unfair or ineffective or counter productive.
That's not what's been going on here, though. That's a self-congratulatory myth progressivism trains its believers to tell themselves about their interactions with the infidel. What you and other progressives here have been posting in support of, and what others have posted in opposition to, are not basic human rights. Where do you think you are, a same-sex-marriage thread? This is a thread about Affirmative Action. I.e., it's a squabble over the merits of progressives' prevailing practice of putting their thumb on the scale when individuals are being compared for purposes of selecting candidates for jobs, slots in colleges, contracts and so forth, in order to make up for the disadvantages candidates in selected groups face as a result of the lingering effects of other thumb-on-the-scale actions that had been previously taken against those groups. Progressives classify groups as oppressed or oppressor, privileged or underrepresented, advantaged or disadvantaged, call it what you will, and are here advocating that decision-makers apply quotas or points or extra consideration or what have you, on behalf of candidates in the selected groups -- the oppressed/underrepresented/disadvantaged groups. Having such extra considerations applied on ones behalf is not a basic human right. Mathematically, it doesn't work if all groups are selected. You can't put your thumb on the scale in favor of everybody. When you apply a preference for one race/sex/caste, that means you're applying a preference against some other race/sex/caste. So that means if Affirmative Action is a right at all, whatever kind of right it is is not a human right. Human rights are by definition the rights of all humans.

So a lot of people post in support of basic oppressed-caste rights for non-white, non-cis, not straight, persons other than male. Including plenty of white males. For some, it’s a case of basic fairness and equality or maybe equity to have rights for selected castes -- rights for which other castes need not apply. And some people just like change. (And, seeing as how such oppressed-caste rights have been the de facto law of the land for fifty-odd years, some people just don't like change.)

Others post opposing some of those ideas because they think policies are unfair or ineffective or counter productive, or violate basic human rights.

This dynamic, inevitably, couples with the near-universal motivation of people everywhere to be the heroes of their own narratives, to cause people who were trained by their mythology to think of themselves as supporting basic human rights but find themselves actually arguing in support of oppressed-caste rights against opponents who are in fact supporting basic human rights, to spin false narratives about the debate. They invent false descriptions of their opponents' positions. They invent false descriptions of their own positions. And they write revisionist histories of who said what, right there in the presence of the actual texts of the respective posts, texts which iidb helpfully keeps in plain view.
I do not live in India and I do not believe in a caste system which even India is in theory attempting to abolish. But bigotry is difficult to root out wherever one is.

I think it IS a basic human right to be treated under the law without regard to skin color, race, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, country of origin. This includes access to education, health care, employment, housing, and marriage and marital status.

It is an unfortunate reality that certain rights have been treated as privileges meted out according to such characteristics and that there is still a lot of resistance to such fairness, equality and equity.

A lot of people believe that affirmative action or DEI policies need to be eliminated as no longer being necessary or as counter productive. I think there can be an argument made for this but my observations IRL do not agree. And I live in a somewhat blue state in a university town. I hear too much from friends who are professors at public universities about being targeted and their fitness questioned by students based in the way they look: that is, not white. Not things that happened 20 years ago but this that happened this academic year.

One obvious bit of evidence ( not my observation,) is the current administration’s scrubbing of mentions of the history of non-white males from mention in various institutions and, for example, the nomination and confirmation of people such as Pete Hegseth who sports white nationalist tattoos and expresses the opinion that women and non-straight, non-cis individuals do not belong in the military while scrubbing their mention from military academies.
 
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...a lot of people post in support of basic human rights for non-white, non-cis, not straight, persons other than male. ...
... Progressives classify groups as oppressed or oppressor, privileged or underrepresented, advantaged or disadvantaged, call it what you will, and are here advocating that decision-makers apply quotas or points or extra consideration or what have you, on behalf of candidates in the selected groups -- the oppressed/underrepresented/disadvantaged groups. Having such extra considerations applied on ones behalf is not a basic human right. ... You can't put your thumb on the scale in favor of everybody.... So that means if Affirmative Action is a right at all, whatever kind of right it is is not a human right. Human rights are by definition the rights of all humans.

So a lot of people post in support of basic oppressed-caste rights for non-white, non-cis, not straight, persons other than male. ...
I do not live in India and I do not believe in a caste system which even India is in theory attempting to abolish. But bigotry is difficult to root out wherever one is.
To clarify, I was using "oppressed-caste rights" as a generic term for affirmative action entitlements in any country, on behalf of members of any hereditary groups that were historically discriminated against in that country. As Wikipedia puts it, "A caste is a fixed social group into which an individual is born within a particular system of social stratification: a caste system." Well, what then was America's tradition of stratifying society by placing social, economic, and professional restrictions on black people and women, but a caste system? Ours was different from India's in innumerable trivial details, but it was the same overall principle in action -- whether you were in a white caste or a black caste, and a male caste or a female caste, and thus where you ranked in the stratification and which career paths were available to you, was determined for you from birth, by inheritance. India has AA for its narrow-definition castes for exactly the same reasons America has AA for our broad-definition castes. Moreover, in India we see affirmative action in its pure form -- the form most progressives apparently really want, because it's the form progressives were trying to establish in the U.S. before our Supreme Court imposed its Bakke compromise. So I think "caste" is the logical word to use generically for the overall concept under discussion, once we abstract away country-specific details.
 
Actual equality of opportunity does not mean second-class citizenship for white males,
True. But so-called "affirmative action" and "DEI" policies are antithetical to "actual equality of opportunity". That's the whole point of the criticism of them.
 
I think the fundamental disconnect in this discussion is that Bomb#20 is somehow convinced that the racism in America is a thing only found in the past. We need to put affirmative weight on the scale because of the current unjust and oppressive weight on scales all over this country TODAY.
 
I think the fundamental disconnect in this discussion is that Bomb#20 is somehow convinced that the racism in America is a thing only found in the past. We need to put affirmative weight on the scale because of the current unjust and oppressive weight on scales all over this country TODAY.
Why did you write that? You didn't see anything in any of my posts implying I think racism in America is a thing only found in the past. That's a figment of your imagination. You appear to be assigning opinions to me based on what a religion teaches its believers to assume about infidels.
 
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Actual equality of opportunity does not mean second-class citizenship for white males,
True. But so-called "affirmative action" and "DEI" policies are antithetical to "actual equality of opportunity". That's the whole point of the criticism of them.
That’s what white makes say but actually they are key to ensuring that non-white, non-males are given an equal shot at jobs, education, training, etc.
 
Am I misunderstanding the word previously here? (emphasis mine)
(snip)
That's not what's been going on here, though. That's a self-congratulatory myth progressivism trains its believers to tell themselves about their interactions with the infidel. What you and other progressives here have been posting in support of, and what others have posted in opposition to, are not basic human rights. Where do you think you are, a same-sex-marriage thread? This is a thread about Affirmative Action. I.e., it's a squabble over the merits of progressives' prevailing practice of putting their thumb on the scale when individuals are being compared for purposes of selecting candidates for jobs, slots in colleges, contracts and so forth, in order to make up for the disadvantages candidates in selected groups face as a result of the lingering effects of other thumb-on-the-scale actions that had been previously taken against those groups.
(snip)
There are demonstrable harms that are done against people who aren't white cis het able males and DEIA is an attempt to redress those harms.

I think the fundamental disconnect in this discussion is that Bomb#20 is somehow convinced that the racism in America is a thing only found in the past. We need to put affirmative weight on the scale because of the current unjust and oppressive weight on scales all over this country TODAY.
Why did you write that? You didn't see anything in any of my posts implying I think racism in America is a thing only found in the past. That's a figment of your imagination. You appear to be assigning opinions to me based on what a religion teaches its believers to assume about infidels.
 
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