Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[Politesse]

Mind you, I do think unisex bathrooms are a good idea, and probably the way of the future. But forcing them into existence legally would create more problems than it solved, and it certainly wouldn't end sex discrimination.

How about unisex athletics?

How about unisex prisons?

I'm not keen on them, as a private citizen, but no, I don't think the government should be involved any more than necessary.

 

[seanie]

So gender divided restrooms aren’t discrimination?

But sex divided restrooms are?

I honestly don't get the sieve you read my posts through...

What?

Well, you did say;

Becasue legal discrimination on the basis of sex is wrong.

And sex segregated spaces require discrimination on the basis of sex. Otherwise they aren’t single sex.

Then you suggest gender divided restrooms are OK.

Which raise two questions.

Are you using the terms sex and gender to mean different things?

And if you’re separating by gender, how is that not discriminatory, in a similar way to how separating by sex is discriminatory?

 

[Politesse]

There's a lot wrong with having gender-divided restrooms. I don't think there's anything unequal with having sex-divided restrooms. Sex is not gender, and it sure as fuck isn't gender identity.

This is a literacy issue, not a disagreement of substance. There is no such thing as a "sex-divided bathroom", as bathrooms are not a function or attribute of sex but rather of society and thus a gender issue by definition. But I am certain we are referring to the same rooms, whatever you wish to call them.

 

[Emily Lake]

”Male instincts”??????

Do I need to explain the concept?
Tom

Yes, I think that you do because I’m not at all certain what you are talking about.

Men are the pervy, rapey, violent sex.

I realize that it will take some nuance and context to understand the men are the pervy rapey people sex, of the two, but that's exactly what I am talking about.

If you don't understand that, then I am not much interested in going on with your education. I don't think you are willing to understand.
Tom

That is not true of all men and it is true of some women. In general, men tend to be taller and have more upper body strength but that is also not universally true.

Believe it or not: women also have sex drives and sometimes as strong or stronger than the average man's or her male partner's. I'm not certain what you mean by pervy but yes, plenty of women like porn, even the grosser stuff, and some women molest or even rape minors. It is less common or less commonly recognized than for men and is likely due to a mixture of biology and socialization. Same thing with violence--partly biology but also strongly socialization. And choice. We all have choices.

I just don't think things are as black and white or male/female as your response implies.

Don't be obtuse, Toni. Tom didn't say all men are pervy, rapey, and violent - and it's not at all implied by his post. It is true that men as a class have an evolved predisposition to be very copulation-focused, and as a result of this have a higher likelihood of acting on those predispositions in a way that our just-barely-a-drop-in-the-ocean developed societies disapprove of.

This isn't news, it's not even shocking. I mean, it's not female elephants out there raping rhinos. It's not female seals going at it with dead penguins.

Acknowledging that men have a significantly higher sex drive than women doesn't excuse or justify poor behavior.

Some men have significantly higher sex drives compared with women. Some women have significantly higher sex drives compared to average men or women. This is hardly universal and is likely as influenced by societal expectations as it is by the presence or lack of a Y chromosome.

Toni, do you genuinely not get the concept here, or are you being contrarian?

Of course some few women have higher sex drives than the average man, just as some few women are taller than the average man. But the reality, which should be uncontroversial, is that men have materially higher sex drives on average, and that extremely few women at all have sex drives higher than the average male sex drive.

You end up sounding like you're insinuating that men and women have the same degree of sex drive and there's no observable difference in the degree of perviness, rapiness, and violence between the sexes. It's a silly thing to latch on to, given that the prevalence of paraphilias is significantly higher in men than in women*, the rates of rape and sexual offending are significantly higher among men than women, and that the volume of violent offenses committed by men is significantly higher than those committed by women. I mean, it's not like it's just a smidge different, it's a lot different.


*Re: paraphilias, the single exception is submissiveness as a paraphilia, which is a bit higher in women than in men.

 

[Politesse]

Are you using the terms sex and gender to mean different things?

Sex and gender do mean different things, in the English language as commonly used today. But you and your "gender-critical" friends insist on replacing the word gender with sex, seemingly in all cases, because you never studied the social sciences and aren't familiar with the terminology you're using. Whatever. Bring back the 19th century, I guess. Enjoy your corsets? In any case, what you call them has no bearing on the use of the rooms in question or how they are regulated.

 

[seanie]

Mind you, I do think unisex bathrooms are a good idea, and probably the way of the future. But forcing them into existence legally would create more problems than it solved, and it certainly wouldn't end sex discrimination.

How about unisex athletics?

How about unisex prisons?

I'm not keen on them, as a private citizen, but no, I don't think the government should be involved any more than necessary.

Forget government.

How should such things as prisons and sports be organised?

If they shouldn’t be unisex, why not?

What would the reasons be?

And what implications do those reasons have for how they should be organised?

 

[Emily Lake]

There's a lot wrong with having gender-divided restrooms. I don't think there's anything unequal with having sex-divided restrooms. Sex is not gender, and it sure as fuck isn't gender identity.

This is a literacy issue, not a disagreement of substance. There is no such thing as a "sex-divided bathroom", as bathrooms are not a function or attribute of sex but rather of society and thus a gender issue by definition. But I am certain we are referring to the same rooms, whatever you wish to call them.

It's not a literacy issue, it's a forced terminology issue. I don't accept your redefinition and conflation of sex and gender.

Bathrooms, and other intimate facilities, are separated on the basis of biological sex. They're not and have never been separated on the basis of who does the dishes, or who minds the kids, or who darns the socks. For as long as women have been allowed to have public facilities at all, they've been divided based on who has a male body and who has a female body.

 

[Emily Lake]

Are you using the terms sex and gender to mean different things?

Sex and gender do mean different things, in the English language as commonly used today. But you and your "gender-critical" friends insist on replacing the word gender with sex, seemingly in all cases. It has no bearing on the use of the rooms in question or how they are regulated.

So to you, whoever does the dishes should use the women's room? How very... progressive... of you.

 

[Politesse]

Are you using the terms sex and gender to mean different things?

Sex and gender do mean different things, in the English language as commonly used today. But you and your "gender-critical" friends insist on replacing the word gender with sex, seemingly in all cases. It has no bearing on the use of the rooms in question or how they are regulated.

So to you, whoever does the dishes should use the women's room? How very... progressive... of you.

What are you talking about? That is one of the weirdest non-sequiturs I've ever seen. You're the one arguing for formal sex discrimination. I am arguing against it.

Also, I'm more than capable of washing dishes, my penis has nothing to do with my aptitude for scrubbing at a sink. My god, you people are weird.

The 1950s fucking sucked, and I do not want them back.

 

[Politesse]

Forget government.

The government's involvement is and always has been my concern with the entire issue. If we forget government, that is if all of you can just lay down arms and stop using coercive force to impose your backwards beliefs on other people who do not consent to be governed by them, we will have little more to discuss. I still won't agree with you, but it's the gun pointed at the head of me and mine that I really object to, not the fact that you are wrong. Most people are wrong about something or other, and the truth is seldom clear and unequivocable. Society requires compromise.

 

[seanie]

is no such thing as a "sex-divided bathroom", as bathrooms are not a function or attribute of sex but rather of society and thus a gender issue by definition. But I am certain we are referring to the same rooms, whatever you wish to c

Not if the basis for separations is agreed by society to be biological sex.

It’s a choice.

 

[seanie]

is no such thing as a "sex-divided bathroom", as bathrooms are not a function or attribute of sex but rather of society and thus a gender issue by definition. But I am certain we are referring to the same rooms, whatever you wish to c

And I’m asking you set set aside government, and discuss how you think things like sports and prisons should be organised.

Is biological sex irrelevant?

Is gender the most important thing?

If so, what do you mean by gender?

 

[TomC]

So gender divided restrooms aren’t discrimination?

But sex divided restrooms are?

I honestly don't get the sieve you read my posts through...

What?

It's prolly the huge lengths you go to justifying your ideology. You regularly confuse sex with gender. You regularly use semantics to convince yourself of how right you are. That sort of thing.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

is no such thing as a "sex-divided bathroom", as bathrooms are not a function or attribute of sex but rather of society and thus a gender issue by definition. But I am certain we are referring to the same rooms, whatever you wish to c

Not if the basis for separations is agreed by society to be on the basis of biological sex.

It’s a choice.

I don't agree with that, it's a contradiction in terms. Any behavior or identity whose basis is what has been "agreed upon by society" is gender by definition, even if its rhetorical justification is some particular generation's understanding of sex. Biology does not change as quickly as social attitudes, and can advance no particular opinion on "correct" society, culture, or law. Thd social sciences are not possible unless the distinction between the objective and the subjective is first grasped. Even before we adopted the convention of using sez and gender to refer to these concepts, sociologists and anthrkpologists used "biological sex" and "social sex" to refer to essentially the same distinction. You unintentionally reference that era and now-extinct convention when you talk about biological sex, which by the modern definition of sex is actually a redundancy. If it is not biological, it is not sex as we now commonly use that term.

 

[seanie]

It’s not about behaviour or identity. Biological sex is an observable material reality.

And society can decide to operate some spaces on the basis of that observable material reality.

Or it can decide otherwise, but some good reasons are required beyond…

…clownfish.

 

[Toni]

”Male instincts”??????

Do I need to explain the concept?
Tom

Yes, I think that you do because I’m not at all certain what you are talking about.

Men are the pervy, rapey, violent sex.

I realize that it will take some nuance and context to understand the men are the pervy rapey people sex, of the two, but that's exactly what I am talking about.

If you don't understand that, then I am not much interested in going on with your education. I don't think you are willing to understand.
Tom

That is not true of all men and it is true of some women. In general, men tend to be taller and have more upper body strength but that is also not universally true.

Believe it or not: women also have sex drives and sometimes as strong or stronger than the average man's or her male partner's. I'm not certain what you mean by pervy but yes, plenty of women like porn, even the grosser stuff, and some women molest or even rape minors. It is less common or less commonly recognized than for men and is likely due to a mixture of biology and socialization. Same thing with violence--partly biology but also strongly socialization. And choice. We all have choices.

I just don't think things are as black and white or male/female as your response implies.

Don't be obtuse, Toni. Tom didn't say all men are pervy, rapey, and violent - and it's not at all implied by his post. It is true that men as a class have an evolved predisposition to be very copulation-focused, and as a result of this have a higher likelihood of acting on those predispositions in a way that our just-barely-a-drop-in-the-ocean developed societies disapprove of.

This isn't news, it's not even shocking. I mean, it's not female elephants out there raping rhinos. It's not female seals going at it with dead penguins.

Acknowledging that men have a significantly higher sex drive than women doesn't excuse or justify poor behavior.

Some men have significantly higher sex drives compared with women. Some women have significantly higher sex drives compared to average men or women. This is hardly universal and is likely as influenced by societal expectations as it is by the presence or lack of a Y chromosome.

Toni, do you genuinely not get the concept here, or are you being contrarian?

Of course some few women have higher sex drives than the average man, just as some few women are taller than the average man. But the reality, which should be uncontroversial, is that men have materially higher sex drives on average, and that extremely few women at all have sex drives higher than the average male sex drive.

You end up sounding like you're insinuating that men and women have the same degree of sex drive and there's no observable difference in the degree of perviness, rapiness, and violence between the sexes. It's a silly thing to latch on to, given that the prevalence of paraphilias is significantly higher in men than in women*, the rates of rape and sexual offending are significantly higher among men than women, and that the volume of violent offenses committed by men is significantly higher than those committed by women. I mean, it's not like it's just a smidge different, it's a lot different.


*Re: paraphilias, the single exception is submissiveness as a paraphilia, which is a bit higher in women than in men.

I’m arguing against the notion that males are inherently more violent or more prone to sexual violence than women. We cannot overlook the role that society plays in assigning certain traits based upon sex/gender.

To me, that is as offensive and ignorant as saying that boys are better at math and science and girls are better at cooking.

 

[laughing dog]

”Male instincts”??????

Do I need to explain the concept?
Tom

Yes, I think that you do because I’m not at all certain what you are talking about.

Men are the pervy, rapey, violent sex.

I realize that it will take some nuance and context to understand the men are the pervy rapey people sex, of the two, but that's exactly what I am talking about.

If you don't understand that, then I am not much interested in going on with your education. I don't think you are willing to understand.
Tom

That is not true of all men and it is true of some women. In general, men tend to be taller and have more upper body strength but that is also not universally true.

Believe it or not: women also have sex drives and sometimes as strong or stronger than the average man's or her male partner's. I'm not certain what you mean by pervy but yes, plenty of women like porn, even the grosser stuff, and some women molest or even rape minors. It is less common or less commonly recognized than for men and is likely due to a mixture of biology and socialization. Same thing with violence--partly biology but also strongly socialization. And choice. We all have choices.

I just don't think things are as black and white or male/female as your response implies.

Don't be obtuse, Toni. Tom didn't say all men are pervy, rapey, and violent - and it's not at all implied by his post. It is true that men as a class have an evolved predisposition to be very copulation-focused, and as a result of this have a higher likelihood of acting on those predispositions in a way that our just-barely-a-drop-in-the-ocean developed societies disapprove of.

This isn't news, it's not even shocking. I mean, it's not female elephants out there raping rhinos. It's not female seals going at it with dead penguins.

Acknowledging that men have a significantly higher sex drive than women doesn't excuse or justify poor behavior.

Some men have significantly higher sex drives compared with women. Some women have significantly higher sex drives compared to average men or women. This is hardly universal and is likely as influenced by societal expectations as it is by the presence or lack of a Y chromosome.

Toni, do you genuinely not get the concept here, or are you being contrarian?

Of course some few women have higher sex drives than the average man, just as some few women are taller than the average man. But the reality, which should be uncontroversial, is that men have materially higher sex drives on average, and that extremely few women at all have sex drives higher than the average male sex drive.

You end up sounding like you're insinuating that men and women have the same degree of sex drive and there's no observable difference in the degree of perviness, rapiness, and violence between the sexes. It's a silly thing to latch on to, given that the prevalence of paraphilias is significantly higher in men than in women*, the rates of rape and sexual offending are significantly higher among men than women, and that the volume of violent offenses committed by men is significantly higher than those committed by women. I mean, it's not like it's just a smidge different, it's a lot different.


*Re: paraphilias, the single exception is submissiveness as a paraphilia, which is a bit higher in women than in men.

I think the issue is describing the difference in perviness, rapiness and violence as “male instinct”, not that there are differences.

 

[Emily Lake]

Are you using the terms sex and gender to mean different things?

Sex and gender do mean different things, in the English language as commonly used today. But you and your "gender-critical" friends insist on replacing the word gender with sex, seemingly in all cases. It has no bearing on the use of the rooms in question or how they are regulated.

So to you, whoever does the dishes should use the women's room? How very... progressive... of you.

What are you talking about? That is one of the weirdest non-sequiturs I've ever seen. You're the one arguing for formal sex discrimination. I am arguing against it.

Also, I'm more than capable of washing dishes, my penis has nothing to do with my aptitude for scrubbing at a sink. My god, you people are weird.

The 1950s fucking sucked, and I do not want them back.

Neither do I. Which is why i find the idea of gender-separated intimate facilities to be ridiculous and regressive.

Look, I know what biological sex is and I know what academic gender is. How about you give us a brief explanation of how you're using those terms, so we can figure out what you're actually trying to say?

 

[seanie]

”Male instincts”??????

Do I need to explain the concept?
Tom

Yes, I think that you do because I’m not at all certain what you are talking about.

Men are the pervy, rapey, violent sex.

I realize that it will take some nuance and context to understand the men are the pervy rapey people sex, of the two, but that's exactly what I am talking about.

If you don't understand that, then I am not much interested in going on with your education. I don't think you are willing to understand.
Tom

That is not true of all men and it is true of some women. In general, men tend to be taller and have more upper body strength but that is also not universally true.

Believe it or not: women also have sex drives and sometimes as strong or stronger than the average man's or her male partner's. I'm not certain what you mean by pervy but yes, plenty of women like porn, even the grosser stuff, and some women molest or even rape minors. It is less common or less commonly recognized than for men and is likely due to a mixture of biology and socialization. Same thing with violence--partly biology but also strongly socialization. And choice. We all have choices.

I just don't think things are as black and white or male/female as your response implies.

Don't be obtuse, Toni. Tom didn't say all men are pervy, rapey, and violent - and it's not at all implied by his post. It is true that men as a class have an evolved predisposition to be very copulation-focused, and as a result of this have a higher likelihood of acting on those predispositions in a way that our just-barely-a-drop-in-the-ocean developed societies disapprove of.

This isn't news, it's not even shocking. I mean, it's not female elephants out there raping rhinos. It's not female seals going at it with dead penguins.

Acknowledging that men have a significantly higher sex drive than women doesn't excuse or justify poor behavior.

Some men have significantly higher sex drives compared with women. Some women have significantly higher sex drives compared to average men or women. This is hardly universal and is likely as influenced by societal expectations as it is by the presence or lack of a Y chromosome.

Toni, do you genuinely not get the concept here, or are you being contrarian?

Of course some few women have higher sex drives than the average man, just as some few women are taller than the average man. But the reality, which should be uncontroversial, is that men have materially higher sex drives on average, and that extremely few women at all have sex drives higher than the average male sex drive.

You end up sounding like you're insinuating that men and women have the same degree of sex drive and there's no observable difference in the degree of perviness, rapiness, and violence between the sexes. It's a silly thing to latch on to, given that the prevalence of paraphilias is significantly higher in men than in women*, the rates of rape and sexual offending are significantly higher among men than women, and that the volume of violent offenses committed by men is significantly higher than those committed by women. I mean, it's not like it's just a smidge different, it's a lot different.


*Re: paraphilias, the single exception is submissiveness as a paraphilia, which is a bit higher in women than in men.

I’m arguing against the notion that males are inherently more violent or more prone to sexual violence than women. We cannot overlook the role that society plays in assigning certain traits based upon sex/gender.

To me, that is as offensive and ignorant as saying that boys are better at math and science and girls are better at cooking.

Is that an argument, or simply an assertion.

Because the higher rates of violence and sexual violence for males over females seems pretty consistent across recorded history and a multitude of societies.

What’s your evidence in support of your contention otherwise?

 

[Politesse]

Look, I know what biological sex is and I know what academic gender is. How about you give us a brief explanation of how you're using those terms, so we can figure out what you're actually trying to say?

By the current conventions of the sciences in the anglophone world, "sex" refers to anatomical and physiological aspects of all organisms in which sex distinctions occur. "Gender" refers to the social and psychological constructions that have been built around perceptions of sex in all known human societies. A tree can be correctly described in terms of sex, but not by gender. Menstruation is a phenomenon occasioned by sex, but is surrounded by a complex and diverse array of cultural perceptions, traditions, and behaviors: gender identity, gender ideology and gender roles, respectively.

While it is best not to confuse the two, the public still frequently treats the two terms as synonyms, so there is little to be gained by insisting on the distinction. I usually don't, unless it is very relevant to the topic of discussion. Similar situations are common whenever scientists try to make have tried to make useful distinctions between the emperical and perceived. Culture and society, ethnicity and population, disease and illness, the list goes on. Many terminological antonyms are in use by professionals but routinely conflated by the public, who after all usually have no need for such a distinction.