Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[Toni]

This is made worse by the fact that *some* people who assert to be transwomen are doing so as a means of feeding a paraphilia using women as live action props in their sexual role play. Even if it's not many, they do exist, and that's a problem.

There are a lot more lesbians than trans.

I’m not certain what point you think you are making.

It's much more likely you'll play a role in some lesbian's sexual object than some trans person's sexual object.

Is this your awkward way of saying that women are much more likely to be the object of sexual attraction for lesbians in the women’s locker room than for trans women?

That is not the point. First of all, at least some trans women are attracted to women.

Secondly, it is more likely that a trans woman is stronger and has more physical strength than a lesbian, on average. An out of control trans woman ( which would be very unlikely) would be more of a physical threat than an out of control cis lesbian—again, a highly unlikely scenario.

What is not unlikely is that if any of the girls or women in a women’s locker room are victims of sexual assault ( pretty likely) they might be traumatized by the unexpected appearance of a stranger with an exposed penis in a women’s locker room.

This does not mean that they are likely to scream and faint—could happen but not likely. They could experience PTSD and might perceive the transwomen as a physical threat and act accordingly: physically or just by screaming or calling for help. None of that is in the best interests of anyone, including trans women. How horrifying that would be!

If it became commonplace for pre or non-surgical trans women to utilize women’s locker rooms, women might become so de-sensitized to the presence of individuals with penises in women’s inky spaces that some makes might exploit the welcome extended to transwomen in order to gain access to preferred victims. Something akin to this has happened already.

 

[Jarhyn]

Seriously, though, why would we think something with as many clear morphological "sliders" as the human body clearly has, would lack for "sliders" in the brain, or that important parts that vary would only vary in one dimension and all at the same time?

That's just silly, and would prevent mutations from surprising everyone.

While I agree with what you're saying you missed my point--I was saying she nailed it in they react as if non-standard is defective.

Ah, you're referencing the issue of forced normativity, of calling conditions "disorders" and villifying people through this purity impulse.

Yes, that's how people react to seeing what they do not understand.

It's not just don't understand.

It is of value to the group for such behavior to exist. That does not mean the individuals benefit. Religious groups attacking anyone not of the faith benefits the religion, it doesn't benefit the people in the religion.

And religions need bogeymen to protect people from in order to do "good". Benefit to the religion, not to the adherents.

Yeah, I get that. The individuals of the religion are capable of understanding and rebelling against the action of that larger body. In some ways the definition of the border, on paper, as executed by the adherents, creates that border.

Borders tend to benefit such systems and if they can "gain advantage", benefits their subset of the system more, at the expense of the progress of the whole group.

I think the biggest threat of mixed sex nudity to some of the most loud objectors is the confrontation with the fact that their world view about what they find "essential" to certain "sex features" is not so essential to those features, and that the essence is more complicated.

You say it is complicated, but you don't seem to be giving how Toni suggests that it is complicated much more than a hand wave, not even a glance.

You are being told by women this is going to be problematic and the response by you and some others is that it isn't a risk with legit trans females so that is that. Are the feelings of women negligible in this conversation, especially those who have been sexually traumatized?

The feelings of people, man or woman or fucking *chatbot*, who do not actually look at the rate of incidence, take some deep breaths, and accept that as long as people act polite and respectful to people's bodily privacy, it is the responsibility of even those who have been traumatized to find treatment for their issues, and not the responsibility of the whole of society to cater to an unfortunate association of, say, the visage of people like Loren's wife of my own Niece (with her fantastic beard), with that trauma.

You don't speak for all women, gyneforms, females, or whatever classifier, and Emily certainly does not; and some views are negligible in this conversation because the facts of reality do not support the "we can always tell" crowd's transphobia.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think the biggest threat of mixed sex nudity to some of the most loud objectors is the confrontation with the fact that their world view about what they find "essential" to certain "sex features" is not so essential to those features, and that the essence is more complicated.

You say it is complicated, but you don't seem to be giving how Toni suggests that it is complicated much more than a hand wave, not even a glance.

You are being told by women this is going to be problematic and the response by you and some others is that it isn't a risk with legit trans females so that is that. Are the feelings of women negligible in this conversation, especially those who have been sexually traumatized?

The feelings of people, man or woman or fucking *chatbot*, who do not actually look at the rate of incidence, take some deep breaths, and accept that as long as people act polite and respectful to people's bodily privacy,

That is rather Panglossian. Personally, I'm not worried about a transgender whatever negatively impacting anyone in my family's life. Males will most likely be what they'll have be careful around, except one of my nieces, who'd fold the poor perp into a origami swan. But that isn't relevant to the discussion here.

it is the responsibility of even those who have been traumatized to find treatment for their issues, and not the responsibility of the whole of society to cater to an unfortunate association of, say, the visage of people like Loren's wife of my own Niece (with her fantastic beard), with that trauma.

The number traumatized is through the roof, we aren't talking about one woman in Albany, New York and another one in Salem, Oregon.

And it really feels hypocritical for you to demand your rights be taken seriously, while apathetically negating the rights of others.

You don't speak for all women, gyneforms, females, or whatever classifier, and Emily certainly does not; and some views are negligible in this conversation because the facts of reality do not support the "we can always tell" crowd's transphobia.

I don't speak for any woman... unless when ordering drinks and my wife is in the bathroom. But I can listen to what they are saying.

 

[TomC]

Males will most likely be what they'll have be careful around, except one of my nieces, who'd fold the poor perp into a origami swan.

Heh.
I have a sister like that.
When she was still a teenager, she got a job in a huge health insurance company. She was smart and ambitious, so when a VP asked her if she would stay after business hours to help with a project she said yes.
Turned out that he wanted to fulfill a fantasy of banging a white girl on the conference table in the board room. It didn't work out well for him. She punched him out, then went to NOW (national organization for women) and got a lawyer. By the time the dust settled, VP had been demoted so far he quit. My sister had a 5 year contract with Blue Cross and Blue Shield, as well as enough money to buy a Camaro.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Males will most likely be what they'll have be careful around, except one of my nieces, who'd fold the poor perp into a origami swan.

Heh.
I have a sister like that.
When she was still a teenager, she got a job in a huge health insurance company. She was smart and ambitious, so when a VP asked her if she would stay after business hours to help with a project she said yes.
Turned out that he wanted to fulfill a fantasy of banging a white girl on the conference table in the board room. It didn't work out well for him. She punched him out, then went to NOW (national organization for women) and got a lawyer. By the time the dust settled, VP had been demoted so far he quit. My sister had a 5 year contract with Blue Cross and Blue Shield, as well as enough money to buy a Camaro.
Tom

What a lot of men do not comprehend is that not all women are a freeze or flight on the fight/freeze/flight scale. Some of us are fighters. Which is why I am able to be here typing on this keyboard.

That does not mean that we don't have trauma and that we're not insensitive to trauma of other people. Sure, therapy helps with PTSD but you have to have access to it and it has to be effective and that does not prevent you from being re-traumatized by similar incidents.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some people very sincerely oppose abortion rights because they truly believe that abortion is murder.

Very, very few.

See how they feel about rape of a child. Should the child be forced to carry? If it's murder, then the answer is yes.

But note the witch hunting. Sacrificing women over the word "abortion", regardless of whether there's actually a viable pregnancy. And sacrificing women when they are under a very real threat that in other contexts would get ruled justifiable homicide. And we get things like this:

Republican representative’s ectopic pregnancy clashes with Florida abortion law

Kat Cammack blames left’s fearmongering after medical staff hesitated to give her drugs needed to end pregnancy

www.theguardian.com

No, idiot, you had an abortion. And she blames the left for creating the climate of fear that put her life in danger. No, the left simply pointed out the climate of fear the recih has created.

Over the years I have managed to get most such supposed "pro-life" people to admit it's about punishment. And the very, very few that I considered truly pro-life looked at it as an unfortunate situation for the woman and felt sorry that she had to go through it.

 

[Toni]

Some people very sincerely oppose abortion rights because they truly believe that abortion is murder.

Very, very few.

See how they feel about rape of a child. Should the child be forced to carry? If it's murder, then the answer is yes.

But note the witch hunting. Sacrificing women over the word "abortion", regardless of whether there's actually a viable pregnancy. And sacrificing women when they are under a very real threat that in other contexts would get ruled justifiable homicide. And we get things like this:

Republican representative’s ectopic pregnancy clashes with Florida abortion law

Kat Cammack blames left’s fearmongering after medical staff hesitated to give her drugs needed to end pregnancy

www.theguardian.com

No, idiot, you had an abortion. And she blames the left for creating the climate of fear that put her life in danger. No, the left simply pointed out the climate of fear the recih has created.

Over the years I have managed to get most such supposed "pro-life" people to admit it's about punishment. And the very, very few that I considered truly pro-life looked at it as an unfortunate situation for the woman and felt sorry that she had to go through it.

No, not very few. Many Catholics, for example believe that abortion is murder. There are a lot of Catholics in the world.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren, I’m not at all certain you actually understand how real people work. In the US, if someone with a male appearing body wants to use the girls bathroom, the school will allow ( based on claims of being transgendered) or disallow.

No, the Indy usual who raped two different t girls was likely NOT actually transgender but their claim was taken as valid. I don’t know what criteria was used to evaluate this claim, what, if any medical documentation was used or whether it was just their claim.

We keep seeing "allowed", but the news said it didn't look like a trans issue. Makes me think there's some distorted reporting going on.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here’s the thing you are not considering: Survivors of sexual assault and rape often experience some degree of PTSD as a result of the trauma of the assault.

The fact that you and other men in this thread are discounting the effects of PTSD and the severity of those effects does not help you make your case or make you seem to be the rational person I am certain you consider yourself. Instead, it’s just one more instance of men not actually giving a shit about women or their concerns because you, personally, are not concerned by the same things.

Which is going to be triggered by male-presenting vagina-bearers.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And why are you calling Semenya "he"? She's got a vagina.

Cite? I can find any number of medical sources saying guevedoces are born with "pseudovaginas" or "what appear to be vaginas", but none saying they have "vaginas". Perhaps your google-fu is better than mine.

Before we start splitting hairs over the differences between a pseudovagina, a vaginal pouch, a blind vagina, and a vagina that does not terminate in a cervix, perhaps we should first discuss whether someone who has what appears to be a vagina, functions like a vagina during non-reproductive penis-in-vagina sex, and naturally developed in the place where vaginas grow, can say they have a vagina? Then we can move on to listing what it is about her vagina that posters here think excludes her from the "has a vagina" category.

And then we'll talk about the women in my family who've had hysterectomies and now have "blind vaginas", "vaginal pouches", etc.

No need to specify non-reproductive on the sex bit. The vagina works as it's supposed to, it's just not connected to anything. Same as a woman with a hysterectomy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Here’s the thing you are not considering: Survivors of sexual assault and rape often experience some degree of PTSD as a result of the trauma of the assault.

The fact that you and other men in this thread are discounting the effects of PTSD and the severity of those effects does not help you make your case or make you seem to be the rational person I am certain you consider yourself. Instead, it’s just one more instance of men not actually giving a shit about women or their concerns because you, personally, are not concerned by the same things.

Which is going to be triggered by male-presenting vagina-bearers.

Is it more important for you to think you scored a point in a riposte, or to have a frank conversation?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘my approach.’ I haven’t actually proposed an approach.

Realistically, there are only three possible answers:
1) Use the bathroom of your presentation.
2) Use the bathroom of your anatomy.
3) All ambiguous cases go to an all-gender, or a men's if there is no all-gender. (And there won't be in many cases--retrofitting is hard.)

I consider #3 unfair, thus leaving #1 and #2.

You appear to be going with #2, and that leaves male-presenting people in the women's.

Being confronted unexpectedly by a strange penis in a woman’s locker room is a valid safety concern. Both for cis females but also for trans women.

PTSD is result of trauma and can trigger a variety of responses, including panic attacks, but also outbursts of violence. A trans woman might be physically attacked or someone not understanding the situation might call for help which again, could lead to violence against a trans woman or arrest or just a lot of humiliation.

But would not a male-presenting person be more of a fear?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem was she didn't want to be visible in the men's room with a vagina. I don't blame her.

And the fact that the ID said "F" should have settled it. It went way too far.

All I know about that is what posters quoted from the story. But that's not what it sounded like to me.
An FtM was in a dive bar. He wanted to pee. The men's room had no functional commode. I've never heard of a men's room with no commode at all, I'm pretty confident that the commode was out of order, possibly stopped up. More likely it had been puked all over, that's been my experience in my long and checkered past.
Strobel was drunk, forced to use a restroom he didn't want to, got belligerent enough for the staff to call the cops. That's not the same as being arrested for being trans.
Tom

Except what I've seen of it is the staff got belligerent, not Strobel.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘my approach.’ I haven’t actually proposed an approach.

Realistically, there are only three possible answers:
1) Use the bathroom of your presentation.
2) Use the bathroom of your anatomy.
3) All ambiguous cases go to an all-gender, or a men's if there is no all-gender. (And there won't be in many cases--retrofitting is hard.)

I consider #3 unfair, thus leaving #1 and #2.

You appear to be going with #2, and that leaves male-presenting people in the women's.

Over 3000 posts into the thread and you have no clue what Toni has been implying / stating up front in her posts?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The feelings of people, man or woman or fucking *chatbot*, who do not actually look at the rate of incidence, take some deep breaths, and accept that as long as people act polite and respectful to people's bodily privacy, it is the responsibility of even those who have been traumatized to find treatment for their issues, and not the responsibility of the whole of society to cater to an unfortunate association of, say, the visage of people like Loren's wife of my own Niece (with her fantastic beard), with that trauma.

It's not my wife that has the problem. It's her sister. Once she put on some pounds she doesn't look remotely feminine. Doesn't look masculine, either--she's one of those people you can't immediately sort out by eye.

 

[Emily Lake]

In almost all sports, sex matters less than size and muscle mass. If the men's and women's divisions aren't working to keep the competitions fair, then they can be adjusted. Boxing has several weight classes. So does wrestling. Why not have better, more precise divisions in other sports than just using what a legal document lists as an athlete's sex?

Given a male and a female of the same height and weight, the male will outperform the female in almost every sport. We have different skeletons, with different pelvises and a different angle for our femurs - that directly affects how we walk and run, and it affects how quickly we can run. A male and a female, both 5'10", both 150 lbs, both in peak athletic shape will have different running times by a material amount, and the male's running times will be faster. It's NOT just "size and muscle mass", we literally have different bodies, across a variety of elements. Women aren't just small men, FFS.

And why are you calling Semenya "he"? She's got a vagina. She calls herself a "different kind of woman".

At best, Semenya might have a very small blind pouch that made it through puberty. He has no internal female reproductive organs at all. I don't care what he calls himself, Semenya is a male of the human species.

If you want to get rid of gendered pronouns, that's one thing. But if you're just being a dick, that's not cool. Guys like you are a huge problem.*

* see what I did there?

I see it, I also don't care. Feel free to use whatever the hell pronoun you want to - my sense of self is not defined by how well I conform to social stereotypes, and I'm not trying to hop in bed with any of you. My feelings won't even be bruised by it.

FYI, "guys" and "dude/s" are neutral terms anyway. Gen-X already fixed that, so feel free to refer to any group of mixed sex people, or even female only people, as "hey you guys". The only people who are ever going to be bothered by that are 1) males of the human species whose feelings are injured by the thought that someone might actually perceive them as being male and 2) some absurdly dogmatic radical feminists who are all borderline insane anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some people very sincerely oppose abortion rights because they truly believe that abortion is murder.

Very, very few.

See how they feel about rape of a child. Should the child be forced to carry? If it's murder, then the answer is yes.

But note the witch hunting. Sacrificing women over the word "abortion", regardless of whether there's actually a viable pregnancy. And sacrificing women when they are under a very real threat that in other contexts would get ruled justifiable homicide. And we get things like this:

Republican representative’s ectopic pregnancy clashes with Florida abortion law

Kat Cammack blames left’s fearmongering after medical staff hesitated to give her drugs needed to end pregnancy

www.theguardian.com

No, idiot, you had an abortion. And she blames the left for creating the climate of fear that put her life in danger. No, the left simply pointed out the climate of fear the recih has created.

Over the years I have managed to get most such supposed "pro-life" people to admit it's about punishment. And the very, very few that I considered truly pro-life looked at it as an unfortunate situation for the woman and felt sorry that she had to go through it.

No, not very few. Many Catholics, for example believe that abortion is murder. There are a lot of Catholics in the world.

Very few. Push it to the edge--that 10? year old girl in the midwest, I'm not recalling the details but it made national news. How many would expect their daughter to carry in that situation?

 

[Toni]

Here’s the thing you are not considering: Survivors of sexual assault and rape often experience some degree of PTSD as a result of the trauma of the assault.

The fact that you and other men in this thread are discounting the effects of PTSD and the severity of those effects does not help you make your case or make you seem to be the rational person I am certain you consider yourself. Instead, it’s just one more instance of men not actually giving a shit about women or their concerns because you, personally, are not concerned by the same things.

Which is going to be triggered by male-presenting vagina-bearers.

Nope. Women and girls walk around all the time among all sorts of males or male appearing persons.

What is potentially traumatic is the appearance of an actual exposed penis in what is supposed to be female only space. Because the assumption is that a person exposing their penis in a female only space is there for nefarious reasons

Loren, you have no idea what you are talking about and your posts just make you seem not just ignorant but malicious.

 

[Toni]

Some people very sincerely oppose abortion rights because they truly believe that abortion is murder.

Very, very few.

See how they feel about rape of a child. Should the child be forced to carry? If it's murder, then the answer is yes.

But note the witch hunting. Sacrificing women over the word "abortion", regardless of whether there's actually a viable pregnancy. And sacrificing women when they are under a very real threat that in other contexts would get ruled justifiable homicide. And we get things like this:

Republican representative’s ectopic pregnancy clashes with Florida abortion law

Kat Cammack blames left’s fearmongering after medical staff hesitated to give her drugs needed to end pregnancy

www.theguardian.com

No, idiot, you had an abortion. And she blames the left for creating the climate of fear that put her life in danger. No, the left simply pointed out the climate of fear the recih has created.

Over the years I have managed to get most such supposed "pro-life" people to admit it's about punishment. And the very, very few that I considered truly pro-life looked at it as an unfortunate situation for the woman and felt sorry that she had to go through it.

No, not very few. Many Catholics, for example believe that abortion is murder. There are a lot of Catholics in the world.

Very few. Push it to the edge--that 10? year old girl in the midwest, I'm not recalling the details but it made national news. How many would expect their daughter to carry in that situation?

No, Loren, there are approximately 52 Million adult Catholics in the US. Many, but not all, consider abortion to be murder. Some portion will accept an exception in the case of rape. Many evangelicals also see abortion as murder. Some portion will see an exception in the case of rape as valid. Some people who oppose abortion in general make exceptions when the life of the mother is at risk but not all do. Most Lutherans oppose abortion and see it as murder. The list goes on.

Yes, there are a lot of devout people who would make an exception for a child who became pregnant or if it was them/their daughter/mother/sister/wife whose pregnancy was the result of rape or of their life was at risk. But plenty of little girls get married off to grown men who impregnated them to cover up the sin.

 

[Toni]

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘my approach.’ I haven’t actually proposed an approach.

Realistically, there are only three possible answers:
1) Use the bathroom of your presentation.
2) Use the bathroom of your anatomy.
3) All ambiguous cases go to an all-gender, or a men's if there is no all-gender. (And there won't be in many cases--retrofitting is hard.)

I consider #3 unfair, thus leaving #1 and #2.

You appear to be going with #2, and that leaves male-presenting people in the women's.

Being confronted unexpectedly by a strange penis in a woman’s locker room is a valid safety concern. Both for cis females but also for trans women.

PTSD is result of trauma and can trigger a variety of responses, including panic attacks, but also outbursts of violence. A trans woman might be physically attacked or someone not understanding the situation might call for help which again, could lead to violence against a trans woman or arrest or just a lot of humiliation.

But would not a male-presenting person be more of a fear?

A person with an exposed penis woukd be the biggest alarm. A trans woman could cause fear, depending on circumstances. And of course, someone just wearing female clothing to gain access to victims IS an actual threat.