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Lifting the Veil of “Islamophobia”

When you look at it by the death toll you get a very different picture:
80% of the top 30 are Islamist.
So maybe Islamists are more efficient killers. That's still not support for the actual claim angelo made.
Unless it's a known thing that Islamists just suck worse than any other terrorist groups at killing? And maybe everyone agrees you need twenty Islamic terrorists to kill one innocent person, while the Irish have a 1:20 rate? That WOULD mean the death toll is proportional to membership, and a high death toll means lots of people on the roster...

But still, I'm just hoping angelo can reveal his source for the claim.

The death toll is a good representation of the threat.

Looking at those same 30 events if you died in one it's at least 84% likely that it was a Muslim that did it. (There's a 2% unknown factor.)

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Islam is a problem, just as fundamentalist christianity is a problem. It isn't them blowing up buildings that I fear, and equating muslims with terrorists is bigotry. What I fear in Islam is the herd mentality and authoritarianism that runs so deep in Islamic religion and culture. When people push that their God is the only God, and their way is the only proper way, trouble is brewing. Especially when evangalism is an important part of the religion. The more strictly muslim, or fundamentalist christian, somebody is, the more I would like to avoid them, and the less I would want them in my society.

Yeah, the herd mentality is a big part of the problem. Non-violent Muslims rarely report the violent ones to non-Muslim authorities.
And as usual, you have dismissed my previous correction of your claim. I took the time to ask you questions about how the Moroccan government has responded to the increase of radicalization and its direct manifestation all the way into Mali. Is it because you do not read responses given to previous posts?

There it is again , starting with your claim :
By you :The only ones that are a threat are the radicals. The only problem with the moderates is that when forced to choose sides they're prone to siding with the radicals rather than non-Muslims. A violent Christian has to be careful of who he talks to because the average one is liable to call the cops. A violent Muslim is unlikely to be reported.
By me :Has the position of the Moroccan government been to side with violent radical Islamist groups infesting Mali?Has the position of the same Government been to remain passive towards groups like AQIM(Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb) and MUJAO ( Tawhid and Jihad) attempting to recruit young Moroccans? Has not the same Government conducted arrests of members of Ansar al-Sharia , a radical Islamist group defined as the "ideological face" of the armed Al-Qaeda, known to operate in Lybia, Yemen and Tunisia?

Which side do you think the Moroccan Government chose despite of Morocco being an Islamic nation? Do you think that Mohammed VIth as a moderate and progressist Muslim "sides" with radicals?

And please, spare me from any hand waving or asinine one liners as a response to the above.
 
Anyway, Warpoet, I learned your tactic months ago.

What tactic would that be? Thinking rationally? I can see how that would be a problem for you.

The OP linked to a Harris article complaining that liberals dare to accuse AHA of being an Islamophobe. The material I linked to demonstrates beyond any shadow of a doubt that she is, in fact, an Islamophobe. And a bigot. There would be no one on here arguing otherwise were she speaking about any group other than Muslims.

You can stop with the halfbrained psychoanalysis, because as I would have thought you had caught onto by now, I don't have a single fuck to give about your opinions on me or really anything else. And I don't have to explain myself to anyone here, least of all you.
 
When looking at the source of radicalization in my country, it is not happening in Muslim schools and Mosques. It is happening in our housing projects (low rent and income "zones) where the majority of our youth of immigrant ancestry (sub Sahara and Northern Africa) live. It is orchestrated by Salafist groups whose sole purpose is to recruit such youth by exploiting their anger and frustration with the French State while a portion of them have been involved in criminal activities which had nothing to do with religion.. Mind you that only a minority of that youth of immigrant ancestry would originally define themselves as practicing Muslims.

My main concern about Islam actually isn't the radicalism and terrorist cells, etc. That is mostly explained by what you say. The downtrodden and desperate mixed with a charismatic leader offering acceptance and radical violent ideology is what breeds it. That leader can be a radical muslim imam, or a non-religious inner city gang leader. That will always exist in society so long as we create outcasts, which is what we should be striving to minimize, and I see Islam as a major barrier to that.

My concern with Islam is not that it is inherently violent, but that it is inherently insular and authoritarian. No God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet, etc. Muslims I know in real life, not the cartoon terrorists, but the real life people, have frequently told me they are not allowed to date non-muslims, and not supposed to have non-muslim friends. They follow their religion and hold it above everything else, including their country. They see fellow mulsims as the ingroup and others as the outgroup. I see the same in fundamentalist christains, but not to the same extreme. It is very polarized and very insular. Layer on top of that the islamophobia int he west, further re-inforcing the polarization, and I see a major problem without an easy fix.

The biggest threat from Islam is not a bearded man toting an AK-47. The biggest thread from Islam is millions of muslims prostrating themselves in a herd before an imaginary Allah, not thinking for themselves, and placing an ancient book above modern thought, ethics, logic, reason, and science. And just as bad, Islam is usually evangelical, seeking to get us all to be like that. Add to this that Islam says little to encourage secularism or separation of church and state. I don't see your typical Canadian muslim as somebody who wants to do me physical harm, but I do see something scary.
 
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but most terrorists are muslim therefore a threat.
Um, most?
Can you source that claim?

Because according to this source, they're not.
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/
That source is unique to the States. Here's one that seems to be chock of block full of various islamist groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations
And another...............http://nctc.gov/site/groups/index.html
 
I usually find myself defending Muslims (and others) from hate mongerers, but I can't say I disagree with anything Zeluvia quoted above.

So, you think we should single out Muslims and strip them of their rights to free speech and close down all of their schools? Because that's still what Ali is saying we should do, and it's still just as repugnant a suggestion as it was the first time I posted it.

Yes shut them down because of the hate of pigs [infidels] taught in them to innocent children who are very easily brainwashed. Teaching children that all Jews are the enemy and to disassociate from infidels, not to mention teaching them that Allah is the creator of the world, to shun the teaching of evolution by natural selection instead does not auger well for the future.
 
Yes, and if angelo had said that the islamists are the greatest threat, then that would support his statement.
I was asking if there was any actual support for his actual statement.
Looking at those same 30 events if you died in one it's at least 84% likely that it was a Muslim that did it.
Why do you suggest i might have died in one?
People already died in those.
Are you trying to make it personal?
Going for an emotional response to 'the threat?'
Am i supposed to be more afraid of the Islamic threat if i can internalize the idea that they may be a threat to me, too?




All i'm asking is if angelo has any support for the statement he made.
Not support of other statements that he didn't make, however poignant those statements might be.
Is this list enough for you? .................http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks
 
Anyway, Warpoet, I learned your tactic months ago.

What tactic would that be? Thinking rationally? I can see how that would be a problem for you.

The OP linked to a Harris article complaining that liberals dare to accuse AHA of being an Islamophobe. The material I linked to demonstrates beyond any shadow of a doubt that she is, in fact, an Islamophobe. And a bigot. There would be no one on here arguing otherwise were she speaking about any group other than Muslims.

You can stop with the halfbrained psychoanalysis, because as I would have thought you had caught onto by now, I don't have a single fuck to give about your opinions on me or really anything else. And I don't have to explain myself to anyone here, least of all you.
She's a bigot? The imman at the moslem school or mosque who tells his followers that Jews are monkeys and death to the infidels is not a bigot??
 
Islam is a problem, just as fundamentalist christianity is a problem. It isn't them blowing up buildings that I fear, and equating muslims with terrorists is bigotry. What I fear in Islam is the herd mentality and authoritarianism that runs so deep in Islamic religion and culture. When people push that their God is the only God, and their way is the only proper way, trouble is brewing. Especially when evangalism is an important part of the religion. The more strictly muslim, or fundamentalist christian, somebody is, the more I would like to avoid them, and the less I would want them in my society.

Yeah, the herd mentality is a big part of the problem. Non-violent Muslims rarely report the violent ones to non-Muslim authorities.

This is at least the second time you've made this specific claim in this thread alone. Do you have anything to back it up? Because if not, you better retract it NOW or be seen as the irrational fearmongerer that you are.
 
Isn't it a fact that the silence from muslims is deafening after many muslim terrorist attacks?

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_2005_London_bombings#Muslim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#Muslim_American_response

And if that weren't so? Do you also regard white people with a right of center position on immigration complicit in Anders Breivik's attack until and unless they explicitly condemn them and manage to have their reaction broadly reported in the media? Because if you don't, you're using dual standards.
 
To Jokodo and Sabine.

What is your stance on ideologies in general? Can they be dangerous? Can the beliefs of individuals be dangerous? If they can be, then what is the appropriate action for society to take?
 
Religion based schools should go back to being something you go to after you attend public school. Not a substitute for primary education.

I blame the Catholics for that screw up.

And it was J.F. Kennedy who had to answer the anti-Papists when they asked if he was fit to be president because as a Catholic, he had sworn to put God before Country. It was a serious problem to his run for president.

That was about 50 years ago or so.

Anyway, Warpoet, I learned your tactic months ago. You take the worst thing you can find, out of context, then repeat it over and over.

Well, if you want to defend Harris and/or Hirsi Ali as rational voices in this debate, you're going to have to defend the superficially most irrational (a.k.a. "worst") thingsthey say. By refusing to do so, you force Warpoet to remind you of them. That's not a tactic of his, that's the only way to deal with your tactic of elusion.

You answer no questions, you do not discuss, you just beat people over the head with the smelliest dead horse you can find. You post in no threads but ones about Islam. You do not seem to be an atheist. And you choose Warpoet as your handle. As though there is something poetic to be found in war.

Pure ad hom.
 
Isn't it a fact that the silence from muslims is deafening after many muslim terrorist attacks?

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_2005_London_bombings#Muslim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#Muslim_American_response

And if that weren't so? Do you also regard white people with a right of center position on immigration complicit in Anders Breivik's attack until and unless they explicitly condemn them and manage to have their reaction broadly reported in the media? Because if you don't, you're using dual standards.
Tokenism. I can still clearly remember the thousands of Palestinians dancing in the streets after news of 9/11 had spread worldwide. Anti Americanism and anything Jewish is widespread in islamic communities.
 
Yes, and if angelo had said that the islamists are the greatest threat, then that would support his statement.
I was asking if there was any actual support for his actual statement.
Looking at those same 30 events if you died in one it's at least 84% likely that it was a Muslim that did it.
Why do you suggest i might have died in one?
People already died in those.
Are you trying to make it personal?
Going for an emotional response to 'the threat?'
Am i supposed to be more afraid of the Islamic threat if i can internalize the idea that they may be a threat to me, too?




All i'm asking is if angelo has any support for the statement he made.
Not support of other statements that he didn't make, however poignant those statements might be.
Is this list enough for you? .................http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks
List of islamic terrorist attacks? That's the title of the link. Why should i go there?
Is it going to support your statement about the number of terrorists in the world and their ideological membership profiles?
 
Tokenism. I can still clearly remember the thousands of Palestinians dancing in the streets after news of 9/11 had spread worldwide. Anti Americanism and anything Jewish is widespread in islamic communities.
Do you remember when they took two cameras to the US Embassy in the late 70's? To film the crowd that was demonstrating there?
The producer rigged one camera so the 'recording' light did not come on. They filmed a crowd of bored Iranians just hanging out in the street. When the second camera's 'record' light came on, they started waving the effigies and dancing and hollering. It's made me skeptical of quite a lot of the media reports of 'dancing in the streets' with respect to America's woes.
So, did you see these communities partying or did you see news programs showing you the dancing in the streets? Just asking....
 
Muslims I know in real life, not the cartoon terrorists, but the real life people, have frequently told me they are not allowed to date non-muslims, and not supposed to have non-muslim friends. They follow their religion and hold it above everything else, including their country. They see fellow mulsims as the ingroup and others as the outgroup. I see the same in fundamentalist christains, but not to the same extreme.

Yeah, no. I think you are grossly exaggerating. The part about not dating non-Muslims is correct in a lot of cases, although that's oftentimes due to the families and not the children. But that's not something unique to Muslims. I have never once met a Muslim who said they can't have non-Muslim friends.

Pew surveys have shown that at least here in the U.S., Muslims identify as "Muslim" before "American" at pretty much the same rate as Christians do. And most don't see a conflict between the two. If it's different elsewhere, it's obviously due to the surrounding sociopolitical circumstances and not what the Qur'an says.

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She's a bigot? The imman at the moslem school or mosque who tells his followers that Jews are monkeys and death to the infidels is not a bigot??

How in the hell does this follow from what I posted?

I haven't seen you make a single rational statement anywhere in this thread. Or the other one, for that matter.
 
Isn't it a fact that the silence from muslims is deafening after many muslim terrorist attacks?
Is it not a fact that an Islamic nation like Morocco has been not only been taking a very strong stand against terrorism but taken measures to defeat radicalization in Morocco as well as in its involvement in Mali? Also, do you think that schools in Morocco teach children to hate Jews? Watch out for your reply as you are communicating with someone who attended school in Morocco and at a time when the start of the day was Koranic instruction. And also someone who studied in depth the history of Morocco and how it protected its Jews from the Nazi. Lived in Morocco for 4 years. My mother's family moved to Morocco from Algeria during the War of Independence. I still have relatives living in Morocco. I also lived in another Islamic majority nation, Senegal.
 
When looking at the source of radicalization in my country, it is not happening in Muslim schools and Mosques. It is happening in our housing projects (low rent and income "zones) where the majority of our youth of immigrant ancestry (sub Sahara and Northern Africa) live. It is orchestrated by Salafist groups whose sole purpose is to recruit such youth by exploiting their anger and frustration with the French State while a portion of them have been involved in criminal activities which had nothing to do with religion.. Mind you that only a minority of that youth of immigrant ancestry would originally define themselves as practicing Muslims.

My main concern about Islam actually isn't the radicalism and terrorist cells, etc. That is mostly explained by what you say. The downtrodden and desperate mixed with a charismatic leader offering acceptance and radical violent ideology is what breeds it. That leader can be a radical muslim imam, or a non-religious inner city gang leader. That will always exist in society so long as we create outcasts, which is what we should be striving to minimize, and I see Islam as a major barrier to that.

My concern with Islam is not that it is inherently violent, but that it is inherently insular and authoritarian. No God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet, etc. Muslims I know in real life, not the cartoon terrorists, but the real life people, have frequently told me they are not allowed to date non-muslims, and not supposed to have non-muslim friends.
I have a vastly different experience. Mine comes from having had play mates as a child who were Muslim girls and boys. Mine comes from my father having had close Muslim friends in the 25 years he lived in Northern Africa and Sub Sahara Africa. Mine comes from having dated Muslim students when I attended my University in Nice, France, as well as having had a large circle of Muslim students as my friends. And Muslim students from various nations and different schools of thought. Mine comes from having kept in touch with some of them after over 35 years. As an aside, my grand father had a "milk brother" in Algeria as he was breast fed by a Muslim Algerian mother since my great grand mother was too ill to feed him. They were very close, up to his "milk brother" passing away in his mid 60's. Not even the bloody cultural and political clash in Algeria during the War of Independence separated them as friends.

My family always had frequent invitations by Moroccan families who demonstrated superb hospitality.I am not aware of and certainly never experienced in the Moroccan culture "Muslims who cannot have non Muslim friends". same in Senegal. Our family doctor was a Senegalese Muslim licensed physician. Highly educated and a close friend to my father. Times I would accompany my father to rural areas of Senegal, I never experienced not being welcome and befriended in those Muslim majority villages. Our "fatou" ( maid) would take me to her modest home where I played with her children and shared her family's meals. They celebrated my being their guest. Same in Morocco where the fatma would take me to run errands with her and I could find my way in the medina without any problems.

Each time I return to France I am comfortable going to the Northern African neighborhoods such as the "basse ville" or lower town in Grasse. I find all the music, tastes, flavors, scents, colors of my childhood. It is an automatic "bond" with the NA merchants when I tell them I was partially raised in Morocco and my mother was born and raised in Algeria. Even here in the US as I go to a Java Village market. Same when I lived in Napoli Italy and would go to the Arab quarters.

One thing I deeply regret is the loss of the Arabic I had learned in school and by being so immersed in the local culture.


They follow their religion and hold it above everything else, including their country. They see fellow mulsims as the ingroup and others as the outgroup.
Islam is NOT an homogeneous group at all. There are constant and persistent clashes between Muslims of different schools of thoughts. An Iranian Muslim adept of the prophet Ali is not going to view a Sunni Muslim as part of his "ingroup" at all. Surely in Canada you get enough exposure to international news to know that multiple branches of Islam clash all the time, right? But to give you an idea of the diversity within Islam and how it is deeply separated into factions and sects as even one school of thoughts will have separatist branches :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches

You would have to get into more "in depth" studies though as the above gives only you a summary or overview.



I see the same in fundamentalist christains, but not to the same extreme. It is very polarized and very insular. Layer on top of that the islamophobia int he west, further re-inforcing the polarization, and I see a major problem without an easy fix.
No easy fix, indeed to have a successful politic of integration. However, isolating those groups into socio economical gutters such as what we did in France was a grave error. Giving in to anti Muslim propaganda dumping all Muslims in the same bag is another grave error. Some folks feeding on the same propaganda plagued with inflammatory misinformation while they will not check the presented claims is another grave error.

The biggest threat from Islam is not a bearded man toting an AK-47. The biggest thread from Islam is millions of muslims prostrating themselves in a herd before an imaginary Allah, not thinking for themselves, and placing an ancient book above modern thought, ethics, logic, reason, and science.
Which , to remind you of your ability to be evenhanded, is the SAME with Christianity.

And just as bad, Islam is usually evangelical, seeking to get us all to be like that.
I have never experienced in the course of my life while socializing so freely with a variety of Muslims any pressure or "evangelization" to "get me to be like that".

Add to this that Islam says little to encourage secularism or separation of church and state. I don't see your typical Canadian muslim as somebody who wants to do me physical harm, but I do see something scary.
Could you please elaborate on what you mean by " a typical Canadian muslim?" There are all types of Muslims. I could say that a "typical French Muslim" is one who has integrated into our secular public life yet will still rely on his faith in his private life. However that would leave out French Muslims who have not integrated into the French social and cultural norms.
 
Well, if you want to defend Harris and/or Hirsi Ali as rational voices in this debate, you're going to have to defend the superficially most irrational (a.k.a. "worst") thingsthey say. By refusing to do so, you force Warpoet to remind you of them. That's not a tactic of his, that's the only way to deal with your tactic of elusion.

You answer no questions, you do not discuss, you just beat people over the head with the smelliest dead horse you can find. You post in no threads but ones about Islam. You do not seem to be an atheist. And you choose Warpoet as your handle. As though there is something poetic to be found in war.

Pure ad hom.

Yes you were on a break the last discussion I had with him. It is ad hom. It was meant to be. My point is that Warpoet took comments out of context, out of the context of Ali's experience and entire viewpoint.

The point of Ali's that really brings it home for me is the difference between assimilation in the US and Europe. This closely parallels some RL discussions I have both with Muslims and a European immigration officer.

Of course I know that all Muslims are not terrible horrible people. I object to the word islamophobia being used to beat up people that point out the various ideologies that are in the Tent called Islam are problematic when contrasted with the Western ideals. I have read apologetics showing that Islamic Ideals and Western Ideals are compatible, and then I have read polemics saying they are not.

These discussions never go to the actual ideology. It's always but "X said this horrible thing, all people that have problems with Islam and agree with X are horrible people and Islamophobes".
 
Yes you were on a break the last discussion I had with him. It is ad hom. It was meant to be. My point is that Warpoet took comments out of context, out of the context of Ali's experience and entire viewpoint.

I took nothing out of context. I said that she promotes stripping Muslims of their constitutional rights, and that's what the quotes I provided demonstrate. Nothing you posted changed that. If anything, it makes her position even more offensive to rational people by outlining the absurd, fearmongering overgeneralizations and sky-is-falling rhetoric she couches her position in. It's the same agitprop bullshit that's been used to justify persecuting others for thousands of years.

These discussions never go to the actual ideology. It's always but "X said this horrible thing, all people that have problems with Islam and agree with X are horrible people and Islamophobes".

No, it's "all people that promote violating the basic principles of a free society by treating everyone who happens to be Muslim like second-class citizens regardless of what they actually think are Islamophobes." It is not an issue of attacking Islam as a religion, it's an issue of people like Ali attacking Muslims as an entire group of people. And your continued attempts to blur the lines of that distinction are disingenuous and unpersuasive. Ditto Sam Harris.
 
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