Lifting the Veil of “Islamophobia”

[Jokodo]

Yes okay, whatever!<snip>

I'm benevolently assuming that this is short for "I see now that I was misinformed. Thanks for clearing things up, and sorry for spreading the misinformation. I'll try to do a better job of checking my sources next time."

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yes okay, whatever!

'Whatever?' You keep making absolute statements that don't stand up to scrutiny and cripple your credibility on any issue.
That's 'okay, whatever' for you?

I'm going by the local muslim schools here

Yes, local schools that are here, that would follow.
But we think you're making other conclusions based on your personal experience and personal views that may not actually support the claims you're making.

And when asked for support, you come back with 'Oh, yeah?' challenges, rather than actually supporting your claims.
Can you at least see why you've convinced people not to take your claims at face value?

 

[angelo]

Okay points taken on the subject of schooling, but that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about Hirsi Ali and her criticism of islam.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raKPJ3-ypwo[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Warpoet]

Okay points taken on the subject of schooling, but that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about Hirsi Ali and her criticism of islam.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raKPJ3-ypwo[/YOUTUBE]

Yeah, and that video is just further evidence that she is an ignoramus who shouldn't be taken seriously by rational people. All she did was interrupt and try to talk over everyone else even though she didn't put forth a single intelligent argument. She sounded like any other fearmongering right-wing nutjob shouting about the foreign hordes.

Except, she's the only one who has legions of "liberal" acolytes ready to fall on the sword for her, because her being an ex-Muslim somehow makes it all OK.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Okay points taken on the subject of schooling, but that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about Hirsi Ali and her criticism of islam.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raKPJ3-ypwo[/YOUTUBE]

Actually the discussion about schooling was DIRECTLY related to her quoted claim of Muslim schools in Europe teaching children to hate Jews and calling Jews "pigs and monkeys" That was part of her rationalization to justify her wanting to shut down Muslim schools. Her claim was disputed by several of us. You produced claims that we will not find Muslim children attending public schools. Several of us have attested and from our experiences and observations in our respective countries that your claim is incorrect.
As well off as the families of the Muslim students who attended my private school were in France, they still opted for a non religious private school.

And by the way...objections to Ali's "criticisms" are not about a critique of the religion, it is about her targeting ALL Muslims without making any distinctions whatsoever. To include supporting measures implying declaring all Muslims personae non gratae. Meaning stripping them off their Constitutional Identity and the Rights and Privileges such Identity confers.

It has been demonstrated in the history of mankind that such measures have resulted in the oppression and persecution of several groups. Void of such Identity they are left without any protection.

I find it extremely contradictory that anyone who pauses as a defender and protector of Western values would suggest that any group whether based on their ethnicity, beliefs or lack of, gender, origin, etc...be subjected to measures resulting in their loss of Rights and Privileges conferred by their Constitutional Identity. Authentic protectors of such values would be consistent enough to uphold those Rights and Privileges benefiting all those groups as they would for themselves.

 

[angelo]

Can you think of any other way to nip this barbaric religion in the bud before it grows further in the mist of mostly rational western culture, than denying, not the people, but their religion any rights in western democracies.

Ali Hirsi is correct in branding muslims in general as sheeple for accepting what their sheiks and imam extremists teach them. To hate the Jew and infidel. They do so without a word of protest. Naive minded young muslims then become the suicide bombers, or travel to the middle east to fight in some supposedly jihad war against what they perceive as their sworn enemy.

 

[Jokodo]

Can you think of any other way to nip this barbaric religion in the bud before it grows further in the mist of mostly rational western culture, than denying, not the people, but their religion any rights in western democracies.

Religions don't have rights. People have rights, among them the right to practice their religion in any way they see fit as long as it doesn't contradict the law of the land. It's therefore logically impossible to "deny rights to a religion" without denying rights to people.

Ali Hirsi is correct in branding muslims in general as sheeple for accepting what their sheiks and imam extremists teach them.

For that statement to be able to be correct, it would have to be true that "muslims in general accept what extremists teach them. It isn't.

To hate the Jew and infidel. They do so without a word of protest.

Why should anyone believe that you have any insight whatsoever into the political and theological debates among Muslims? It's not like your track record in this thread suggests that the quality of information you're building upon goes much beyond making up stuff that fits your narrative.

 

[angelo]

So Ali Hirsi is making it all up. She and those who criticise islam are wrong to criticise the religion of peace. We should just shut the fark up and stop criticising them when they mutilate a baby girl, marry off a 9 year old to a 50 year old uncle.
Shut up when a rape victim is then charged with adultery and given 50 lashes and perhaps stoned to death as well. Let the so called moderates have their sharia laws superimpose western laws in Western countries. Turn a blind eye to their treatment of women in general and just let them be.

 

[Jokodo]

So Ali Hirsi is making it all up. She and those who criticise islam are wrong to criticise the religion of peace. We should just shut the fark up and stop criticising them when they mutilate a baby girl, marry off a 9 year old to a 50 year old uncle.
Shut up when a rape victim is then charged with adultery and given 50 lashes and perhaps stoned to death as well. Let the so called moderates have their sharia laws superimpose western laws in Western countries. Turn a blind eye to their treatment of women in general and just let them be.

Can you try and reply to my post rather than to something that exists only in your head? Thank you!

 

[Sabine Grant]

So Ali Hirsi is making it all up. She and those who criticise islam are wrong to criticise the religion of peace.

You still have NOT acknowledged the vast difference between criticisms of Islam and dumping ALL Muslims without any distinction into the same bag while drawing plans with measures affecting ALL Muslims residing in and citizens in European nations. Have you not read Ali's stances quoted earlier in this thread and addressed by several posters?

We should just shut the fark up and stop criticising them when they mutilate a baby girl, marry off a 9 year old to a 50 year old uncle.
Shut up when a rape victim is then charged with adultery and given 50 lashes and perhaps stoned to death as well.

Please, quote which comments/posts in this thread have even come remotely close to making such suggestion.

Let the so called moderates have their sharia laws superimpose western laws in Western countries.

That is part of the fear mongering rhetoric to claim that liberal and moderate European Muslims want" their shariah laws superimpose western laws in Western countries".Such rhetoric has been propagated by Spencer, Geller and their likes while depicting the future of Europe as being politically dominated by Muslims. Who somehow would constitute the majority of the legislative and executive branches. While pre existing pluralistic democratic governments would somehow cease to enforce laws derived from their civil and criminal codes of Justices intended to prevent criminal and unlawful acts.

Turn a blind eye to their treatment of women in general and just let them be.

To my knowledge, there is not one single nation in Europe ( as well as in the US) who does not enforce civil code and criminal code of Justice derived laws which protect all citizens from criminal and unlawful acts. "women" fall under that umbrella of protection. No Muslim male will benefit of some type of dispensation when engaging in domestic violence. France has a zero tolerance law regarding FGM. Marriages between a 9 year old and any adult are unlawful. And as far as rape victims are concerned, I am not aware of moderate and liberal Muslims in Europe ( as well as the US) attempting to charge her with adultery to then get a green light from a Judge or Jury to torture her and execute her death sentence by stoning or any other mean.

As to "their treatment of women in general", the "their" associated to "so call moderates", I have socialized with many Muslim female lawyers, doctors, teachers etc...all occupying professions that are career oriented, who have had access to education to include undergrad and post grad and are far from being mistreated by their male relatives belonging to the moderate or liberal Muslim category. In fact they were all supported by their male relatives in their pursuit of an educated and fruitful career. Both my Professor (male) in Philology and his wife, head of the Depart. of Human Sciences at my University in Nice, France, were moderate/liberal Muslims of Tunisian immigrant origin.

Let me give you a bit of homework since the French Muslim population was brought up in this thread. Let's start with an easy read :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_France

Paying attention to this :

Politics:


A Mosque in Fréjus with West African architecture.
Formal as well as informal Muslim organisations help the new French citizens to integrate. There are no Islam-based political parties, but a number of cultural organisations. Their most frequent activities are homework help and language classes in Arabic, but ping pong, Muslim discussion groups etc. are also common. However, most important associations active in assisting with the immigration process are either secular (GISTI, for example) or ecumenist (such as the protestant-founded Cimade).

The most important national institution is the CFCM (Conseil Français du Culte Musulman) this institution was designed on the model of the "Consistoire Juif de France" and of the "consistoire Protestant de France" both Napoleonic creation. The aim of the CFCM (like its Jewish and protestant counterparts) is to discuss religious problem with the state, participate in certain public institutions,and organise the religious life of French Muslims. The CFCM is elected by the French Muslims through local election. It is the only official instance of the French Muslims.

There were for organisations represented in the CFCM elected in 2003 GMP UOIF FNMF CCMTF. In 2008 a new council was elected. The winner was RMF with a large majority of the votes,followed by the UOIF and the CCMTF. It is a very broad and young organisation and there is a beginning of consensus on major issues.

Two more organizations are PCM (Muslim Participation and Spirituality), which combine political mobilization (against racism, sexism etc.) and spiritual retreats and parties. The other is CMF (well known as "the organization close to Tariq Ramadan", though he is not their leader). Both of these organizations put a lot of emphasis on the need to get involved in French society – by joining organizations, registering to vote, working with your children's schools etc. They do not have clear-cut political positions as such, but push for active citizenship. They are vaguely on the Left in practice.

The government has yet to formulate an official policy towards making integration easier. As mentioned above, it is difficult to determine in France who may be called a Muslim. Some Muslims in France describe themselves as "non-practicing". Most simply observe Ramadan and other basic rules, but are other wise secular.

If you read the entire article, you will become acquainted with which specific Muslim school of thoughts adepts are the identified culprit for propagating the wishful thinking of an Islamist theocracy. The designated extreme minority group (which distinguishes itself from the vast majority of French Muslims) are adepts of salafism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

The French Government has in fact taken measures to expel salafi movement members who attempt to promote their ideology. That because contrary to Ali and you, the French State does pay attention to distinctions and does not dump all Muslims in the same bag.

And no matter how loud the xenophobic and nationalistic outcries of the Right Wing Front National party is, attempts to strip all French Muslims from their Constitutional Identity and the Rights and Privileges it confers is NOT going to happen.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can you think of any other way to nip this barbaric religion in the bud before it grows further in the mist of mostly rational western culture, than denying, not the people, but their religion any rights in western democracies.

Ali Hirsi is correct in branding muslims in general as sheeple for accepting what their sheiks and imam extremists teach them. To hate the Jew and infidel. They do so without a word of protest. Naive minded young muslims then become the suicide bombers, or travel to the middle east to fight in some supposedly jihad war against what they perceive as their sworn enemy.

I disagree. Most of them don't accept the garbage. The problem is that they don't go to the authorities when they encounter the recruiters--thus the recruiters are free to operate pretty openly.

 

[Jokodo]

Can you think of any other way to nip this barbaric religion in the bud before it grows further in the mist of mostly rational western culture, than denying, not the people, but their religion any rights in western democracies.

Ali Hirsi is correct in branding muslims in general as sheeple for accepting what their sheiks and imam extremists teach them. To hate the Jew and infidel. They do so without a word of protest. Naive minded young muslims then become the suicide bombers, or travel to the middle east to fight in some supposedly jihad war against what they perceive as their sworn enemy.

I disagree. Most of them don't accept the garbage. The problem is that they don't go to the authorities when they encounter the recruiters--thus the recruiters are free to operate pretty openly.

This is at least the fourth time you've made that claim. Do you have anything to substantiate it?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can you think of any other way to nip this barbaric religion in the bud before it grows further in the mist of mostly rational western culture, than denying, not the people, but their religion any rights in western democracies.

Ali Hirsi is correct in branding muslims in general as sheeple for accepting what their sheiks and imam extremists teach them. To hate the Jew and infidel. They do so without a word of protest. Naive minded young muslims then become the suicide bombers, or travel to the middle east to fight in some supposedly jihad war against what they perceive as their sworn enemy.

I disagree. Most of them don't accept the garbage. The problem is that they don't go to the authorities when they encounter the recruiters--thus the recruiters are free to operate pretty openly.

This is at least the fourth time you've made that claim. Do you have anything to substantiate it?

Look how much more openly they operate--a Christian terrorist who worked like they do would be (and have been) reported.

Also, while you don't like what I'm saying look at the reality--if I'm wrong then angelo is right.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Can you think of any other way to nip this barbaric religion in the bud before it grows further in the mist of mostly rational western culture, than denying, not the people, but their religion any rights in western democracies.

Ali Hirsi is correct in branding muslims in general as sheeple for accepting what their sheiks and imam extremists teach them. To hate the Jew and infidel. They do so without a word of protest. Naive minded young muslims then become the suicide bombers, or travel to the middle east to fight in some supposedly jihad war against what they perceive as their sworn enemy.

I disagree. Most of them don't accept the garbage. The problem is that they don't go to the authorities when they encounter the recruiters--thus the recruiters are free to operate pretty openly.

This is at least the fourth time you've made that claim. Do you have anything to substantiate it?

Look how much more openly they operate--a Christian terrorist who worked like they do would be (and have been) reported.

Do you think the French Renseignements Generaux rely on French Catholics or any other group but MUSLIMS to have informers who will gather intel on Salafists who are the identified fundy Muslims susceptible to incite terrorism and who are the identified extremists in France who promote Islamist theocratic ideologies?

Also, while you don't like what I'm saying look at the reality--if I'm wrong then angelo is right.

That makes no sense at all. Angelo is wrong and has been wrong several times in this thread. You are also wrong in your claim above which I addressed. By the way, I had already addressed it earlier on in this thread by documenting the zero tolerance policy in Morocco regarding recruiters from identified extremist Islamist factions targeting Moroccan youth. Do you think that the Muslim majority in Morocco representative of a liberal and moderate Islam do not report to the Moroccan authorities the presence and activities of those extremist factions recruiters? What are your insights about liberal and moderate Muslim Moroccan families I somehow would not have?

 

[Togo]

I disagree. Most of them don't accept the garbage. The problem is that they don't go to the authorities when they encounter the recruiters--thus the recruiters are free to operate pretty openly.

This is at least the fourth time you've made that claim. Do you have anything to substantiate it?

Look how much more openly they operate--a Christian terrorist who worked like they do would be (and have been) reported.

So.. based on what you've heard, you reckon it's being kept secret?

Also, while you don't like what I'm saying look at the reality--if I'm wrong then angelo is right.

I'm pretty sure you could both be wrong.

I've had people trying to recruit me into fundamentalist Islam. But then I've also had people try to recruit me into fundamentalist Christianity. Also two criminal gangs, one of which wanted me to be mayor of a dope farm, a pagan cult, and a bolshevik revolution. The only openly terrorist group that wanted me were an atheist group who wanted to take 'direct action' against the families of animal rights protestors.

Maybe I just have a recruitable face?

I could go to the police, but what do I say exactly? It's not like these people couldn't deny everything, or that they give out their names and addresses. The reason why they can operate openly is that recruiting people isn't illegal, and being a member of an organisation, with a very few exceptions, isn't illegal.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you think the French Renseignements Generaux rely on French Catholics or any other group but MUSLIMS to have informers who will gather intel on Salafists who are the identified fundy Muslims susceptible to incite terrorism and who are the identified extremists in France who promote Islamist theocratic ideologies?

The point is that a Catholic is a lot more likely to come forward if they encounter a Catholic terrorist than a Muslim is if they encounter a Muslim terrorist.

Also, while you don't like what I'm saying look at the reality--if I'm wrong then angelo is right.

That makes no sense at all. Angelo is wrong and has been wrong several times in this thread. You are also wrong in your claim above which I addressed. By the way, I had already addressed it earlier on in this thread by documenting the zero tolerance policy in Morocco regarding recruiters from identified extremist Islamist factions targeting Moroccan youth. Do you think that the Muslim majority in Morocco representative of a liberal and moderate Islam do not report to the Moroccan authorities the presence and activities of those extremist factions recruiters? What are your insights about liberal and moderate Muslim Moroccan families I somehow would not have?

The point is they recruit with near impunity. Either the people around them agree with them or else they take the side of a bad Muslim over a non-Muslim.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I disagree. Most of them don't accept the garbage. The problem is that they don't go to the authorities when they encounter the recruiters--thus the recruiters are free to operate pretty openly.

This is at least the fourth time you've made that claim. Do you have anything to substantiate it?

Look how much more openly they operate--a Christian terrorist who worked like they do would be (and have been) reported.

So.. based on what you've heard, you reckon it's being kept secret?

Also, while you don't like what I'm saying look at the reality--if I'm wrong then angelo is right.

I'm pretty sure you could both be wrong.

I've had people trying to recruit me into fundamentalist Islam. But then I've also had people try to recruit me into fundamentalist Christianity. Also two criminal gangs, one of which wanted me to be mayor of a dope farm, a pagan cult, and a bolshevik revolution. The only openly terrorist group that wanted me were an atheist group who wanted to take 'direct action' against the families of animal rights protestors.

Maybe I just have a recruitable face?

I could go to the police, but what do I say exactly? It's not like these people couldn't deny everything, or that they give out their names and addresses. The reason why they can operate openly is that recruiting people isn't illegal, and being a member of an organisation, with a very few exceptions, isn't illegal.

I'm not talking about being recruited to be a fundie, but recruited for violence.

 

[angelo]

There's certainly no shortage of takers for terrorists causes. They are finding these volunteers from within islam not from without. The often repeated : "not all muslims are terrorist, but most terrorist are muslim " is fact whether you agree or not.

 

[Jokodo]

Can you think of any other way to nip this barbaric religion in the bud before it grows further in the mist of mostly rational western culture, than denying, not the people, but their religion any rights in western democracies.

Ali Hirsi is correct in branding muslims in general as sheeple for accepting what their sheiks and imam extremists teach them. To hate the Jew and infidel. They do so without a word of protest. Naive minded young muslims then become the suicide bombers, or travel to the middle east to fight in some supposedly jihad war against what they perceive as their sworn enemy.

I disagree. Most of them don't accept the garbage. The problem is that they don't go to the authorities when they encounter the recruiters--thus the recruiters are free to operate pretty openly.

This is at least the fourth time you've made that claim. Do you have anything to substantiate it?

Look how much more openly they operate--a Christian terrorist who worked like they do would be (and have been) reported.

Yes, that's the point you'll need to bring evidence for.
It is a fact that many potential Muslim terrorists have been reported. It is also a fact that some Christian terrorists have not been reported, despite what in retrospect were obvious signs. It is not a fact that Muslims terrorists generally act with impunity among non-extremist Muslims and get away with it. If you know otherwise, I'd like to see your data. Repeating a claim is not data.

Also, while you don't like what I'm saying look at the reality--if I'm wrong then angelo is right.

Non-sequitur. You could both be wrong.

 

[Togo]

t

I'm pretty sure you could both be wrong.

I've had people trying to recruit me into fundamentalist Islam. But then I've also had people try to recruit me into fundamentalist Christianity. Also two criminal gangs, one of which wanted me to be mayor of a dope farm, a pagan cult, and a bolshevik revolution. The only openly terrorist group that wanted me were an atheist group who wanted to take 'direct action' against the families of animal rights protestors.

Maybe I just have a recruitable face?

I could go to the police, but what do I say exactly? It's not like these people couldn't deny everything, or that they give out their names and addresses. The reason why they can operate openly is that recruiting people isn't illegal, and being a member of an organisation, with a very few exceptions, isn't illegal.

I'm not talking about being recruited to be a fundie, but recruited for violence.

So am I. The Islamic recruitment was from a group that was closed down for planning a gas attack on a nightclub. The Christian group wanted to enforce Christian values in their community through vigilante action against undesirables. I'll admit the dope farm and the pagan cult were pretty harmless. The point is you don't get 'recruited for violence'. You get recruited for the cause, measured and assessed, and then get involved in violence when they feel they can trust you. At that point, the chances of you turning on a group you trust and identify with, and reporting them to the authorities, are pretty slim.

The point is that a Catholic is a lot more likely to come forward if they encounter a Catholic terrorist than a Muslim is if they encounter a Muslim terrorist.

Based on Northern Ireland, I'd say not. I understand you want one to be more common than the other, but you've given neither a reason nor any evidence to suggest that your belief is true.

There's certainly no shortage of takers for terrorists causes. They are finding these volunteers from within islam not from without. The often repeated : "not all muslims are terrorist, but most terrorist are muslim " is fact whether you agree or not.

<shrug> You're wrong, whether you agree or not. It's not a terribly useful form of argument.