Lightning Burns Down Church, But FOX News Focuses on Preserved Jesus Painting

[Opoponax]

Ya, I've often compared religion to the scaffolding on a building. When you're putting the building up, the scaffolding is vital and important and serves a valuable purpose.

Once the building is up, though, it just looks really weird if you still have the scaffolding there.

Great analogy. I'm totally ripping that off and using it as my own. I'll be sure to send royalty checks. It's what all the best people do.

 

[bilby]

That is all conjecture, nobody knows an end to the universe.

It depends on who you ask. Douglas Adams says the universe will end in five hundred and seventy-six thousand million years. But then he said that in 1980, that was thirty-eight years ago so time is quickly running out.

That's OK, I have my table reserved at Milliways.

 

[steve_bank]

When Ben Franklin demonsted lightning was a natural electric phenomena it actually casuded a theological crisis.

A common belief was if your house or barn got struck by lightning it was a sign from above where of course god dwelled.

Minsters preached lightning rods were an abomination and offense against god.

Yet Ben was a Deist just like Jefferson.

If you want to tar all theists with the same brush, do you agree that it's okay to tar all atheists with the same brush? If not, why not?

Deist in those times simply meant not Christian theist but not atheist. A belief in a higher power or creator. In Europe as revolutionary ambassador Franklin made a reputation debunking psychics and myths.

Jefferson produced a version of the gospels minus the overall supernatural. Newton was a theist, but he held some views at the time that could have gotten him into trouble. Galileo remained a faithful Catholic despite his troubles with the Vatican. That may be what saved his life.

Descartes was educated by Jesuits. All the sconce in Europe leading up to the 20th century explosion was mainly done by theists.

 

[steve_bank]

There are many things to complain about. Religion is but one.

However, religion seems to have caused, or made worse, the vast majority of bad things in the world.

Like Judaism? I think the people at the Tree of Life synagogue will disagree with you. People who hate religion are as bad as religious fanatics who hate atheists; both are haters.

Religion in all forms are the main source of conflict today. Buddhists in an area in Asia have suppressed minorities. The religious in the USA decry the violence while ignoring the fundamental reality. I am sure Jews in Philadelphia care not about the slow motion ethnic cleansing by Israel in occupied West Bank areas. It is all documented by the UN.

The enmity between Christians and Jews goes back to the late 1st century.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Like Judaism? I think the people at the Tree of Life synagogue will disagree with you. People who hate religion are as bad as religious fanatics who hate atheists; both are haters.

Religion in all forms are the main source of conflict today. Buddhists in an area in Asia have suppressed minorities. The religious in the USA decry the violence while ignoring the fundamental reality. I am sure Jews in Philadelphia care not about the slow motion ethnic cleansing by Israel in occupied West Bank areas. It is all documented by the UN.

The enmity between Christians and Jews goes back to the late 1st century.

Stalin and Mao were both atheists who sought to stamp out religion. How many millions died because they chose to believe?

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-soviet-attempt-to-stamp-out-religion-failed
Within just weeks of the October revolution, the People’s Commissariat for Enlightenment was established to remove all references to religion from school curriculums. In the years that followed, churches and monasteries were destroyed or turned into public toilets. Their land and property was appropriated. Thousands of bishops, monks and clergy were systematically murdered by the security services. Specialist propaganda units were formed, like the League of the Godless. Christian intellectuals were rounded up and sent to camps.

The Soviets had originally believed that when the church had been deprived of its power, religion would quickly wither away. When this did not happen, they redoubled their efforts. In Stalin’s purges of 1936 and 1937 tens of thousands of clergy were rounded up and shot. Under Khrushchev it became illegal to teach religion to your own children. From 1917 to the perestroika period of the 1980s, the more religion persisted, the more the Soviets would seek new and inventive ways to eradicate it. Today the Russian Orthodox churches are packed full. Once the grip of oppression had been released, the faithful returned to church in their millions.

The Soviet experiment manifestly failed.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Stalin and Mao were both atheists who sought to stamp out religion. How many millions died because they chose to believe?

I think it'd be more fair to say they sough to stamp out challenges to their power. Not because of their atheism.
If Stalin had been able to appoint himself Pope, he'd have been fine with religion. His religion. Then stamp out atheism and any form of Protestantism, so everyone had to follow his pronouncements.

Then it would have just looked like any other chapter of Christain history...

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Stalin and Mao were both atheists who sought to stamp out religion. How many millions died because they chose to believe?

I think it'd be more fair to say they sough to stamp out challenges to their power. Not because of their atheism.
If Stalin had been able to appoint himself Pope, he'd have been fine with religion. His religion. Then stamp out atheism and any form of Protestantism, so everyone had to follow his pronouncements.

Then it would have just looked like any other chapter of Christain history...

Nice flip, but disagreed since it's exactly the same for the "religions". The fact remains religion is a tool to spiritual fulfillment but can be misused as a tool to harm others. Same for atheism. The USSR and PRC are godless states, pure atheist and history proves they sought to stamp out religion just like others on this forum have suggested religion is doing.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The USSR and PRC are godless states, pure atheist and history proves they sought to stamp out religion just like others on this forum have suggested religion is doing.

Pure atheist? Or have they elevated the state to become like a religion?

Atheism is merely a lack of belief in gods. It's really hard for me to grasp how one uses that, much less abuses it. But fascism, that's a lot easier to see.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

The USSR and PRC are godless states, pure atheist and history proves they sought to stamp out religion just like others on this forum have suggested religion is doing.

Pure atheist? Or have they elevated the state to become like a religion?

Atheism is merely a lack of belief in gods. It's really hard for me to grasp how one uses that, much less abuses it. But fascism, that's a lot easier to see.

LOL. Thanks.

 

[steve_bank]

Like Judaism? I think the people at the Tree of Life synagogue will disagree with you. People who hate religion are as bad as religious fanatics who hate atheists; both are haters.

Religion in all forms are the main source of conflict today. Buddhists in an area in Asia have suppressed minorities. The religious in the USA decry the violence while ignoring the fundamental reality. I am sure Jews in Philadelphia care not about the slow motion ethnic cleansing by Israel in occupied West Bank areas. It is all documented by the UN.

The enmity between Christians and Jews goes back to the late 1st century.

Stalin and Mao were both atheists who sought to stamp out religion. How many millions died because they chose to believe?

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-soviet-attempt-to-stamp-out-religion-failed
Within just weeks of the October revolution, the People’s Commissariat for Enlightenment was established to remove all references to religion from school curriculums. In the years that followed, churches and monasteries were destroyed or turned into public toilets. Their land and property was appropriated. Thousands of bishops, monks and clergy were systematically murdered by the security services. Specialist propaganda units were formed, like the League of the Godless. Christian intellectuals were rounded up and sent to camps.

The Soviets had originally believed that when the church had been deprived of its power, religion would quickly wither away. When this did not happen, they redoubled their efforts. In Stalin’s purges of 1936 and 1937 tens of thousands of clergy were rounded up and shot. Under Khrushchev it became illegal to teach religion to your own children. From 1917 to the perestroika period of the 1980s, the more religion persisted, the more the Soviets would seek new and inventive ways to eradicate it. Today the Russian Orthodox churches are packed full. Once the grip of oppression had been released, the faithful returned to church in their millions.

The Soviet experiment manifestly failed.

Stalinism and Maoism were not just about being anti religion, it was about imposing a state enforced conformity. China these days gave up suppressing religion and has attempted to regulate it in same ways. In pre revolution Russia the church was an arm of the aristocracy used to suppress the lower classes. You could buy forgiveness for killing someone in the lower class. Russia was brutal on the lower classes.

It is no mystery why the revolution turned against religion. When the Soviet Union collapsed the Eastern Christian Church moved quickly to regain power and suppress other Christians. Billy Gram had a tough time getting permission to hold one of his rallies.

You can try to equate atheism with the worse of religion, but it is not so. In Russia, China, and North Korea were complex historical, ethnic, racial, and political issue of which religion was a part.

The Cold War was about polecat and economic systems, not religion. Historically religion has been the rott caie of a majority of conflicts. For centuries Christian Europe vs the Ottoman Empire which was Muslim. A few battles gouing the other way and Europe may have gone Muslim.

Muslim vs Hindu in India followed by today Muslim Pakistan vs India which is in a running low level shooting war over Kashmir.

I expect most atheists in general accept religion under free expression and right of assembly, as long as religion does not exert coercion and demonizing atheism and does not impose faith through government. What atheists in the USA oppose is Chirality imposing a morality derived form an ancient disjointed text of unknown authors through laws and government.
We do not have Stalin or Mao. We have many Christians who claim to know what a god wants and then tries to impose it on us non believers. Just like the enforced ideology and morality of Stain and Mao.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Stalin and Mao were both atheists who sought to stamp out religion. How many millions died because they chose to believe?

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-soviet-attempt-to-stamp-out-religion-failed
Within just weeks of the October revolution, the People’s Commissariat for Enlightenment was established to remove all references to religion from school curriculums. In the years that followed, churches and monasteries were destroyed or turned into public toilets. Their land and property was appropriated. Thousands of bishops, monks and clergy were systematically murdered by the security services. Specialist propaganda units were formed, like the League of the Godless. Christian intellectuals were rounded up and sent to camps.

The Soviets had originally believed that when the church had been deprived of its power, religion would quickly wither away. When this did not happen, they redoubled their efforts. In Stalin’s purges of 1936 and 1937 tens of thousands of clergy were rounded up and shot. Under Khrushchev it became illegal to teach religion to your own children. From 1917 to the perestroika period of the 1980s, the more religion persisted, the more the Soviets would seek new and inventive ways to eradicate it. Today the Russian Orthodox churches are packed full. Once the grip of oppression had been released, the faithful returned to church in their millions.

The Soviet experiment manifestly failed.

Stalinism and Maoism were not just about being anti religion, it was about imposing a state enforced conformity. China these days gave up suppressing religion and has attempted to regulate it in same ways. In pre revolution Russia the church was an arm of the aristocracy used to suppress the lower classes. You could buy forgiveness for killing someone in the lower class. Russia was brutal on the lower classes.

It is no mystery why the revolution turned against religion. When the Soviet Union collapsed the Eastern Christian Church moved quickly to regain power and suppress other Christians. Billy Gram had a tough time getting permission to hold one of his rallies.

You can try to equate atheism with the worse of religion, but it is not so. In Russia, China, and North Korea were complex historical, ethnic, racial, and political issue of which religion was a part.

The Cold War was about polecat and economic systems, not religion. Historically religion has been the rott caie of a majority of conflicts. For centuries Christian Europe vs the Ottoman Empire which was Muslim. A few battles gouing the other way and Europe may have gone Muslim.

Muslim vs Hindu in India followed by today Muslim Pakistan vs India which is in a running low level shooting war over Kashmir.

I expect most atheists in general accept religion under free expression and right of assembly, as long as religion does not exert coercion and demonizing atheism and does not impose faith through government. What atheists in the USA oppose is Chirality imposing a morality derived form an ancient disjointed text of unknown authors through laws and government.
We do not have Stalin or Mao. We have many Christians who claim to know what a god wants and then tries to impose it on us non believers. Just like the enforced ideology and morality of Stain and Mao.

Of course. How can you stamp out religion without the power of a state?

 

[steve_bank]

Stalin and Mao were both atheists who sought to stamp out religion. How many millions died because they chose to believe?

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-soviet-attempt-to-stamp-out-religion-failed
Within just weeks of the October revolution, the People’s Commissariat for Enlightenment was established to remove all references to religion from school curriculums. In the years that followed, churches and monasteries were destroyed or turned into public toilets. Their land and property was appropriated. Thousands of bishops, monks and clergy were systematically murdered by the security services. Specialist propaganda units were formed, like the League of the Godless. Christian intellectuals were rounded up and sent to camps.

The Soviets had originally believed that when the church had been deprived of its power, religion would quickly wither away. When this did not happen, they redoubled their efforts. In Stalin’s purges of 1936 and 1937 tens of thousands of clergy were rounded up and shot. Under Khrushchev it became illegal to teach religion to your own children. From 1917 to the perestroika period of the 1980s, the more religion persisted, the more the Soviets would seek new and inventive ways to eradicate it. Today the Russian Orthodox churches are packed full. Once the grip of oppression had been released, the faithful returned to church in their millions.

The Soviet experiment manifestly failed.

Stalinism and Maoism were not just about being anti religion, it was about imposing a state enforced conformity. China these days gave up suppressing religion and has attempted to regulate it in same ways. In pre revolution Russia the church was an arm of the aristocracy used to suppress the lower classes. You could buy forgiveness for killing someone in the lower class. Russia was brutal on the lower classes.

It is no mystery why the revolution turned against religion. When the Soviet Union collapsed the Eastern Christian Church moved quickly to regain power and suppress other Christians. Billy Gram had a tough time getting permission to hold one of his rallies.

You can try to equate atheism with the worse of religion, but it is not so. In Russia, China, and North Korea were complex historical, ethnic, racial, and political issue of which religion was a part.

The Cold War was about polecat and economic systems, not religion. Historically religion has been the rott caie of a majority of conflicts. For centuries Christian Europe vs the Ottoman Empire which was Muslim. A few battles gouing the other way and Europe may have gone Muslim.

Muslim vs Hindu in India followed by today Muslim Pakistan vs India which is in a running low level shooting war over Kashmir.

I expect most atheists in general accept religion under free expression and right of assembly, as long as religion does not exert coercion and demonizing atheism and does not impose faith through government. What atheists in the USA oppose is Chirality imposing a morality derived form an ancient disjointed text of unknown authors through laws and government.
We do not have Stalin or Mao. We have many Christians who claim to know what a god wants and then tries to impose it on us non believers. Just like the enforced ideology and morality of Stain and Mao.

Of course. How can you stamp out religion without the power of a state?

I do not support 'stamping out' religion or any ideology operating within civil law in general. In the long run from what is reported in the media XChristianity in the USA is slowly loosing in the marketpkace of ideas. That is as it should be.

It is repotted largely due to Trump young Evangelicals are questioning their upbringing, faith, validity. It is reporting Evangelicals as a group are declining.You can not end religion in general, it serves a need for many people. It sprang back in China and Russia and exists in North Korea.The reality is religion has been a strong social glue. Take it away and it is being replaced by fpr one thing poop music as source for morality. Young people quote music instead of the bible.

If not one thing it is another. In the 69s the social revolution was about throwing off convention and religion. People turned to the mysterious east for inspiration.

The end result is the current pop culture is a far more insidious conformity than the old norms ever were.

 

[RavenSky]

I found it amusing at the time, that the people who were burning flags in protest attached more importance to the item than the knee-jerk patriots who let them rot on their radio antenna...

truth

 

[Max Rockatansky]

I do not support 'stamping out' religion or any ideology operating within civil law in general....

In general. What about specifically? Anything you want to stamp out there? Stalin and Mao were pretty specific. BTW, Happy Guy Fawkes Day!

...In the long run from what is reported in the media XChristianity in the USA is slowly loosing in the marketpkace of ideas. That is as it should be.

It is repotted largely due to Trump young Evangelicals are questioning their upbringing, faith, validity. It is reporting Evangelicals as a group are declining.You can not end religion in general, it serves a need for many people. It sprang back in China and Russia and exists in North Korea.The reality is religion has been a strong social glue. Take it away and it is being replaced by fpr one thing poop music as source for morality. Young people quote music instead of the bible.

If not one thing it is another. In the 69s the social revolution was about throwing off convention and religion. People turned to the mysterious east for inspiration.

The end result is the current pop culture is a far more insidious conformity than the old norms ever were.

Thanks for the rant, er, speech. It's revealing.

 

[steve_bank]

Stamped nothing. that only leads to tyranny.

Battle it out in the market place of ideas. The KKK was once very powerful physically and politically. Not any more. Same with Aryan Nation. The Civil Liberties Union once defended the KKK right to parade.

The battle of ideas reduced racism and led to a black president. What communism showed is that any presumption of a centralized ,oral ideology leads to tyranny and general loss of liberty. As such we battle it out over time. That is what the founders set in motion.

We have freedom of thought and expression for all or we have nothing.