• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Londonistan, Eurabia

Unfortunately a necessity around here.
Not necessity.
If you want to be funny, be funny.
If you want to make a point, make a point.
It's a special skill set to make a point by being funny.

Usually, one should keep in mind the old Theatre saw, "if you want to send a message, use Western Union."
 
Wrong question. Nobody is saying they should - there is nothing moral about their decision. But if a significant portion of the local consumer base finds it distasteful, there's a market for a eateries that don't serve it. I'm sure there's a broad variety of eateries that don't serve insects in Bangkok or Singapure, partly because of the demand of Western tourists and expats.
I would get it if a halal kebab shop were to open in Bristol for example. But a Western chain caving to a pressure of an aggressive and loud minority is quite another. If a restaurant frequented by locals that has always served insect were to change their menu to not serve insects to appease Westerners I would understand the locals being upset. And especially so if a part of the new rules that all food must be prepared by Westerners.

There is a tendency for the Left to be too tolerant of the intolerance of Muslims. Be it Muslims demanding halal only in restaurants, schools or workplaces or Muslim speakers in colleges demanding audience be gender segregated the Left will tolerate nonsense they would never tolerate from Christian fundys. Just like they demand Indian creation myths being taken seriously (for example Kennewick Man or sacredness of every tall hill like Mt. Graham) when they would never dream of demanding the same for Christian creation myths.
I think all religions should be treated the same and none should be allowed to control the lives of non-members.
 
Usually, one should keep in mind the old Theatre saw, "if you want to send a message, use Western Union."

Must be a really old saw (unsuitable for meat for sure). When was the last time anyone sent a message (as opposed to money order) using WU?
 
Wrong question. Nobody is saying they should - there is nothing moral about their decision. But if a significant portion of the local consumer base finds it distasteful, there's a market for a eateries that don't serve it. I'm sure there's a broad variety of eateries that don't serve insects in Bangkok or Singapure, partly because of the demand of Western tourists and expats.
I would get it if a halal kebab shop were to open in Bristol for example. But a Western chain caving to a pressure of an aggressive and loud minority is quite another.

If there's a market for it, it is in the economic interest of Western chains to conquer a part of that market. No need for "caving", "pressure", or "aggressive".

If a restaurant frequented by locals that has always served insect were to change their menu to not serve insects to appease Westerners <snip>

I'm pretty sure that has happened 1000s of times.

There is a tendency for the Left to be too tolerant of the intolerance of Muslims.

That may even be so, but this thread illustrates something quite different: A tendency for the Right to start shitting their pants over mundane and innocuous events only because a Muslim is involved somewhere.

<snip>
I think all religions should be treated the same and none should be allowed to control the lives of non-members.

I guess that's why you're campaigning against evangelicals enforcing dry county rules in much of the US, while you don't have problems with Muslims making individual decisions about where they want to get their food.

Oh, wait.
 
I guess that's why you're campaigning against evangelicals enforcing dry county rules in much of the US, while you don't have problems with Muslims making individual decisions about where they want to get their food.
Not a fan of that either, but at least Evangelicals are a majority in those counties. Muslims are enforcing halal only eateries, halal only workplaces, halal only schools and gender segregated university debates when they are only a small majority of the population. That is scary!
 
I guess that's why you're campaigning against evangelicals enforcing dry county rules in much of the US, while you don't have problems with Muslims making individual decisions about where they want to get their food.
Not a fan of that either, but at least Evangelicals are a majority in those counties. Muslims are enforcing halal only eateries, halal only workplaces, halal only schools and gender segregated university debates when they are only a small majority of the population. That is scary!

This thread is about a company trying to make more money by adapting to changing consumer demand - one would think you'd know that, since you started it. If you find that scary, that's your problem. There's no "enforcing" happening outside your head.
 
This thread is about a company trying to make more money by adapting to changing consumer demand - one would think you'd know that, since you started it. If you find that scary, that's your problem. There's no "enforcing" happening outside your head.
No, they are trying to appease a small but loud (and sometimes violent) minority and restricting the choices of the majority. They are also discriminating against non-Muslim meat suppliers on religious grounds.
One would think true liberals would find that abhorrent. Yet, because it's Muslims it's all good for the fake "if it's non-Western it must be good" liberals.
 
This thread is about a company trying to make more money by adapting to changing consumer demand - one would think you'd know that, since you started it. If you find that scary, that's your problem. There's no "enforcing" happening outside your head.
No, they are trying to appease a small but loud (and sometimes violent) minority and restricting the choices of the majority. They are also discriminating against non-Muslim meat suppliers on religious grounds.
One would think true liberals would find that abhorrent. Yet, because it's Muslims it's all good for the fake "if it's non-Western it must be good" liberals.

Well liberals probably would be upset, except for the small matter of that's a bunch of xenophobic bullshit that isn't actually happening as has been explained to you several times already.

Also, it has, at this point, been repeatedly demonstrated that religious grounds for discrimination or restricting the dietary choices of others don't actually bother you, so you can quit pretending you're coming from some kind of common ground on this.
 
This thread is about a company trying to make more money by adapting to changing consumer demand - one would think you'd know that, since you started it. If you find that scary, that's your problem. There's no "enforcing" happening outside your head.
No, they are trying to appease a small but loud (and sometimes violent) minority and restricting the choices of the majority. They are also discriminating against non-Muslim meat suppliers on religious grounds.
One would think true liberals would find that abhorrent. Yet, because it's Muslims it's all good for the fake "if it's non-Western it must be good" liberals.

Well liberals probably would be upset, except for the small matter of that's a bunch of xenophobic bullshit that isn't actually happening as has been explained to you several times already.
No it hasn't. Or rather, their attempts at explanation do not hold water.
Also, it has, at this point, been repeatedly demonstrated that religious grounds for discrimination or restricting the dietary choices of others don't actually bother you, so you can quit pretending you're coming from some kind of common ground on this.
How has it been demonstrated? The evangelical/alcohol issue? I abhor that as well. The question is: is there disagreement on this board that needs to be discussed? I doubt it. If you think there is, start a thread.
 
Wrong question. Nobody is saying they should - there is nothing moral about their decision. But if a significant portion of the local consumer base finds it distasteful, there's a market for a eateries that don't serve it. I'm sure there's a broad variety of eateries that don't serve insects in Bangkok or Singapure, partly because of the demand of Western tourists and expats.
I would get it if a halal kebab shop were to open in Bristol for example. But a Western chain caving to a pressure of an aggressive and loud minority is quite another. If a restaurant frequented by locals that has always served insect were to change their menu to not serve insects to appease Westerners I would understand the locals being upset. And especially so if a part of the new rules that all food must be prepared by Westerners.
Interesting, I don't remember anyone for Subway stating that they were pressured by an aggressive minority? And the lack of recognition that the Subway franchise owners probably wanted to increase profits by widening their appeal to people who might not have previously have eaten there instead of "giving into pressure" is showing that this is more about fear than facts. (I still wonder if any pressure was applied at all.) Much like McDonalds and the Catholics, these stores are most likely trying to widen their appeal to potential customers.

There is a tendency for the Left to be too tolerant of the intolerance of Muslims.
What intolerance? Is changing your menu to attract more business somehow caving to intolerance?

Geesh, give it a break. Fight intolerance where it is, not these nonsensical "oh my gawd... I can't get bacon chicken at this one restaurant!" outrages. I'm sure you can find more worthy injustices to be brought up.
 
How has it been demonstrated? The evangelical/alcohol issue? I abhor that as well. The question is: is there disagreement on this board that needs to be discussed? I doubt it. If you think there is, start a thread.

Derec,
Would you be happy if I told you that Muslim cab drivers are required by law to drop people off/pick up at the location the customer requests in my state (with obvious exceptions like safety)? This include liquor stores, bars, whore houses, gambling dens etc... Did you know that when they challenged this, they discovered that these cases had been decided 100 years before due to Christian cab drivers with the same objections? Did you know that nearly everyone in the state left and right agrees with these decisions?
 
Interesting, I don't remember anyone for Subway stating that they were pressured by an aggressive minority? And the lack of recognition that the Subway franchise owners probably wanted to increase profits by widening their appeal to people who might not have previously have eaten there instead of "giving into pressure" is showing that this is more about fear than facts. (I still wonder if any pressure was applied at all.)
Do you really expect them to come out and say it? But it should be obvious since one of the neighborhoods that "halal only" Subway is located is only 15% Muslim. That means 85% are non-Muslim (duh!) Yet they caved to offering a "halal only" menu there.

Much like McDonalds and the Catholics, these stores are most likely trying to widen their appeal to potential customers.
No, it's the antithesis of McD and Catholics. There is no ban on (terrestrial vertebrate) meat on Fridays, or during Lent. Neither are their fish sandwiches only offered on Fridays or during Lent. And neither are they sourcing their fish from Catholic fishermen only. As you say, they "widened their appeal to potential customers" by expanding their menu, not by restricting it. The fish sandwich might have been inspired by Catholic dietary customs but their entire menu is not based on it. Quite unlike Subway.

What intolerance? Is changing your menu to attract more business somehow caving to intolerance?
No, changing your menu to appease an intolerant minority that is offended by what the majority eats is caving to intolerance.

Geesh, give it a break. Fight intolerance where it is, not these nonsensical "oh my gawd... I can't get bacon chicken at this one restaurant!" outrages. I'm sure you can find more worthy injustices to be brought up.
200 of them. And it's not merely inconvenience but also the principle of the thing. Camel's nose under the tent stuff. Also, these Subways are discriminating against non-Muslim meat suppliers as well.
 
Wrong question. Nobody is saying they should - there is nothing moral about their decision. But if a significant portion of the local consumer base finds it distasteful, there's a market for a eateries that don't serve it. I'm sure there's a broad variety of eateries that don't serve insects in Bangkok or Singapure, partly because of the demand of Western tourists and expats.
I would get it if a halal kebab shop were to open in Bristol for example. But a Western chain caving to a pressure of an aggressive and loud minority is quite another.
You persist in trotting that same claim while you have failed to support it. A private corporation makes the decision to dedicate 200 of their eating facilities out of over 1700 to serving only halal products (which automatically excludes pork products) to meet a marketing demand based on a ratio of consumers who will only purchase halal products and you jump to the conclusion that Subway is "caving to the pressure of an aggressive and loud minority". In your OP you even spoke of "Islamist pressure". Your use of the term "Islamist" reveals to which extent you do not know the difference between IslamIC and IslamIST. It is interesting to see how a choice of words will expose someone's limited knowledge.

To my knowledge, you are not part of the corporate management of Subway who made that decision. You have zero insight as to whether an "aggressive and loud minority" pressured the parties involved in that decision. Yet you pursue with the same claim as if it were an established and demonstrated fact.


If a restaurant frequented by locals that has always served insect were to change their menu to not serve insects to appease Westerners I would understand the locals being upset. And especially so if a part of the new rules that all food must be prepared by Westerners.

There is a tendency for the Left to be too tolerant of the intolerance of Muslims.
I could equally point to the tendency for the Right to fester nationalistic sentiments while they define what a "True (place whichever nationality)" ought to be. Further the tendency for the Right to reject cultural diversity while promoting cultural uniformity. It has been demonstrated in the history of mankind that such mentality has fueled political systems which engaged in the oppression of cultural minorities if not their elimination.


Be it Muslims demanding halal only in restaurants, schools or workplaces or Muslim speakers in colleges demanding audience be gender segregated the Left will tolerate nonsense they would never tolerate from Christian fundys.
I am not aware of a body of Muslims in the US representative of the Religious Right Wing as it is the case for an actual Religious Right Wing composed of Evangelical Christian organizations who are widely known to influence Christian legislators in promoting legislation and passing them which will affect an entire population.




Just like they demand Indian creation myths being taken seriously (for example Kennewick Man or sacredness of every tall hill like Mt. Graham) when they would never dream of demanding the same for Christian creation myths.
"Christian creation myths" have already found their place of fame and popularity in the US (unfortunately) via some school boards (as it is the case in Texas) imposing Intelligent Design teachings in the Science curriculum. I am not aware of "Indian creation myths" being imposed as part of Science classes in the US. What I am aware of though is the historically demonstrated reality that Native Americans (whom you refer to as "Indians") were the only legitimate indigenous population until European colonialism oppressed them and robbed them of both their land and traditions. The least Americans can do today is show some degree of recognition towards a people who tremendously suffered under European colonialism.

I also find it somewhat ironic that someone commented on how foreigners who come to their country should not impose their cultural traditions while when it comes to the nation defined as the US, it is exactly what happened during the European colonial period.


I think all religions should be treated the same and none should be allowed to control the lives of non-members.
Try to present a coherent and rationally centered argumentation demonstrating how that sentence applies to 200 out of over 1700 Subway owned eatery facilities being dedicated to serving only halal products. How are non halal product consumers of the Subway private corporation falling under the definition of their lives being controlled considering that they have over 1500 Subway owned eateries which will serve products compatible with those consumers' market demand for non halal products to include pork products?
 
How has it been demonstrated? The evangelical/alcohol issue? I abhor that as well. The question is: is there disagreement on this board that needs to be discussed? I doubt it. If you think there is, start a thread.

Derec,
Would you be happy if I told you that Muslim cab drivers are required by law to drop people off/pick up at the location the customer requests in my state (with obvious exceptions like safety)? This include liquor stores, bars, whore houses, gambling dens etc... Did you know that when they challenged this, they discovered that these cases had been decided 100 years before due to Christian cab drivers with the same objections? Did you know that nearly everyone in the state left and right agrees with these decisions?
Whether it is Christian or Muslim it is wrong to allow taxi drivers to discriminate either by location or by customers say carrying liquor. I must say, US is far saner regarding special rights for Muslims than Europe, especially UK.
 
Do you really expect them to come out and say it? But it should be obvious since one of the neighborhoods that "halal only" Subway is located is only 15% Muslim. That means 85% are non-Muslim (duh!) Yet they caved to offering a "halal only" menu there.
Usually minority demographic groups live in a specific neighborhood as an "enclave". Which fully justifies private business located in those enclaves to take into account the cultural profile prevailing in the "enclave". Prior to our "Islanders" in Tampa (mostly from Jamaica) moving mostly to new subdivisions in Riverview located around Big Bend road, local stores did not have an aisle dedicated to products imported from Jamaica. Even though "Islanders" are still a minority in those subdivision, local grocery stores all have imported products from Jamaica. That private corporations such as Publix , Sweet Bay (now bought by Winn Dixie) will demonstrate "cultural sensitivity" based on an ethnic and cultural representation concentrated in an area has NOTHING to do with your unsupported assertions.
Much like McDonalds and the Catholics, these stores are most likely trying to widen their appeal to potential customers.
No, it's the antithesis of McD and Catholics. There is no ban on (terrestrial vertebrate) meat on Fridays, or during Lent. Neither are their fish sandwiches only offered on Fridays or during Lent. And neither are they sourcing their fish from Catholic fishermen only. As you say, they "widened their appeal to potential customers" by expanding their menu, not by restricting it. The fish sandwich might have been inspired by Catholic dietary customs but their entire menu is not based on it. Quite unlike Subway.
It was repeatedly explained that very complex logistics would make it impossible for a menu offering BOTH halal and non halal items. You have persistently dismissed what was detailed for you by now 3 posters. I was the first one to bring it up early on in this thread.
What intolerance? Is changing your menu to attract more business somehow caving to intolerance?
No, changing your menu to appease an intolerant minority that is offended by what the majority eats is caving to intolerance.
Still the same undocumented and unsupported assertion on your part. This is getting old.
Geesh, give it a break. Fight intolerance where it is, not these nonsensical "oh my gawd... I can't get bacon chicken at this one restaurant!" outrages. I'm sure you can find more worthy injustices to be brought up.
200 of them. And it's not merely inconvenience but also the principle of the thing. Camel's nose under the tent stuff. Also, these Subways are discriminating against non-Muslim meat suppliers as well.
200 out of over 1700 and you have created a storm in a cup of tea,.... mint tea based on the Moroccan tradition. And since you are into metaphoric language illustrating Arab related symbols, to your "camel's nose under the tent", I will respond with an actual Arab proverb " "When the caravan passes by, dogs are barking". Meaning making a mountain out of an ant hill. Making a lot of noise when there is no valid cause for it.

What is most concerning to me in this thread is how some of the comments tend to echo the climate of alarmist fear mongering propagated by Spencer, Geller and their likes.
 
Do you really expect them to come out and say it?
Frankly, this thread is about you, not Subway. If you're the one saying they're caving in to pressure, you need to support it. If Subway isn't saying it, where are you getting it?
 
Do you really expect them to come out and say it? But it should be obvious since one of the neighborhoods that "halal only" Subway is located is only 15% Muslim. That means 85% are non-Muslim (duh!) Yet they caved to offering a "halal only" menu there. <snip>

Absent any evidence of their "caving" to your alleged "pressure", I'll posit that of those 85%, 83% are vegetarians who won't be affected either way. There, see? I can pull claims out of my hindside as well. Just as well evidenced!

On a more serious note, your "85% non-Muslims" figure really is perfectly irrelevant. Some of them will be vegetarians who won't be affected by what kind of meat is on offer one way or the other. More importantly, most people don't care either way: They might buy pork if its on offer, but will take turkey without second thought when it isn't. On top of that, they probably hope to attract Muslim costumers from outside the narrow neighbourhood.

If you want to make the argument that market forces alone can't be responsible, you have to toss out the numbers of Muslims/non-Muslims and dig up some figures about people who will only buy vs. people who won't buy meat from a halal place. You're probably intelligent enough to know that the latter category can't be equated with the entire group of non-Muslims (and if you aren't, expect to be ridiculed).
 
Which suddenly reminds me of the sales of some of our surplus submarines to some of our Mid East allies way back before they all turned into intolerant terrorists out to control all fastfood in the UK (if approx 12% = all). We'd let them practice with the ship for a while, some of our sailors providing cadre during the transfer.

None of the US sailors who told me about the experience ever, ever mentioned the food. No problems on a compliant galley, apparently. And i know it was either halal or not. No galley would have had room for the requirements of a halal AND non- menu.

There were some issues with the head, though. There's not really room to stand above the toilet in sub stalls unless you stand ON the toilet. Seeing faces that high above the stall doors when you went into the head took some getting used to.

And there was a regular announcement about the ship's heading, to indicate which direction Mecca was... Which is pretty cool, really. I was never very damned sure our quartermasters knew which direction North was if we were on a heading of 000.
 
Back
Top Bottom