Marijuana

[rousseau]

if you compare someone who's smoked a joint every day for twenty years, versus someone who hasn't

I don't think it's even POSSIBLE to do that.
For one thing, a joint 50 years ago wasn't the same thing as a joint 20 years ago, which wasn't the same thing as a joint today.
I've been using weed for almost 60 years, so I KNOW that. It's not just something I read.
But I can only opine that if I had been smoking a joint a day of today's weed starting 60 year ago, I probably wouldn't have made it to 50 years ago. For all the tolerance and familiarity with it, I rarely smoke more than 2-3 puffs of pot in a day (evening; I don't habitually smoke it in the daytime) and more typically only one puff. Anyone smoking a joint a day of today's weed has either rendered themselves non-functional or has attained a degree of tolerance at which I can only marvel.
OTOH, I will readily defer to the opinion of any number of present company who cares to assess my mental (or physical for that matter) condition based on what I post here, and is willing to surmise how much better those functions would be operating for me, had I not fallen down the rabbit hole of The Weed With Roots In Hell.
Bring it on.

I know the difference as well. Even what I was smoking twenty years ago wasn't nearly as strong as legal weed today. If you're only smoking a few puffs a day that likely doesn't qualify as abuse. The negative effects come from abusing the drug, it doesn't sound like you've done that. It sounds like you've made intentional, informed decisions to not do that, which is what I'm recommending.

 

[TSwizzle]

It wouldn't be nearly as bad if these drugs were regulated and if users were offered save ways to use, or rehab instead of being punished for using a substance that isn't healthy for them.

In what way are drug users punished these days? In places like Portland, Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles, openly taking drugs is common and the police pretty much leave them to it.

 

[Elixir]

If you're only smoking a few puffs a day that likely doesn't qualify as abuse.

I can only say that I have selected a new strain to grow this year because the strain I've been growing for the last 5 yrs or so is just too strong. "Abuse" for me starts at about 3 puffs.
The new strain tests much lower in THC, and much MUCH higher in CBDs. I am hoping to enjoy it more, get better pain relief from it and not suffer the woes of "abuse".

 

[Elixir]

In what way are drug users punished these days?

Punishment is commonly by imprisonment. There are over 30,000 State prisoners and over 10,000 federal prisoners currently incarcerated for pot violations. Plus an estimated half million in local jails (mostly shorter term).
I'm sure that the rate of incarceration may be less in Seattle than in Texas. I'd expect Santa Monica to fall somewhere between. Is it getting to you there, Swiz? Is the smoke polluting your 78 degree air?

 

[rousseau]

If you're only smoking a few puffs a day that likely doesn't qualify as abuse.

I can only say that I have selected a new strain to grow this year because the strain I've been growing for the last 5 yrs or so is just too strong. "Abuse" for me starts at about 3 puffs.
The new strain tests much lower in THC, and much MUCH higher in CBDs. I am hoping to enjoy it more, get better pain relief from it and not suffer the woes of "abuse".

I tried smoking legal flower about two years ago in the throes of pandemic boredom. No joke, I smoked about a few hundredths of a gram and could barely handle it. Edibles worked a lot better.

When I was in college in my senior year I spent a lot of time around hippie types. There were a few who were the smoke all day, every day type, and you could see it. The pot smokers I know who've done the best kept it limited and controlled. Just like alcohol.

 

[rousseau]

What kind of brain damage? What specific mental health issues? Were they (or their signs) present prior to cannabis use? Do the effects persist?
Dopamine sensitivity effects are transient afaik. As are "motivational problems".
I think if you look at alcohol in the same light you'll find those same downsides in amplified form, without any of the upsides of marijuana.
The massive intake you cite for those "studies" can't be mirrored with alcohol "studies" because equivalent dosages of alcohol would kill people outright.
I'm not saying that it isn't possible for deleterious effects to occur, but I don't see them as more severe than over-consumption of anything else - say, donuts or red meat.

It's all there on Google Scholar. I'm not trying to hide anything, but not interested in parsing through a bunch of papers I read two years ago and summarizing. I'd be interested in hearing your take after taking a substantial look.

I think you may be at least partly correct that motivational problems are transient, but they're only transient if the pot smoker is aware that the problem exists and actually starts limiting their pot use. Hence my advocation of making pot users aware of the risks.

If a pot smoker continues to abuse pot, thinking that it's risk free, then the problem isn't transient because they're not dealing with it.

Depends on what you consider 'severe'. Is a chronic pot smoker who's become dependent on pot, and who's lost the motivation to pursue material goals, experiencing a severe problem? What if they skip going back to college? Could have a major impact on their life.

 

[lpetrich]

Marijuana plants are varieties of hemp, classified as the same species, Cannabis sativa. Other varieties are grown as a fiber crop, like flax, and that was likely the original use of this plant.

I'll now look for the origins of words for this plant. It turns out that "hemp" and "cannabis" are cognates, related by sound shifts.

hemp - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

English hemp < Middle English hanep, henep, henepe, henpe, hempe, hemp < Old English henep, hænep
Already getting more of a resemblance to "cannabis".

Let's look at other Germanic languages.

West Germanic first.
Saterland Frisian: Hoamp, West Frisian: himp
Dutch: hennep < Middle Dutch: hannep, hennep, hanep, hennip
Low German: Hämp, Münsterländer: Hannop, East Westphalian: Hamp < Middle Low German: hennep, hennip, hēnep, henp < Old Saxon: hanap, hanup
German: Hanf, Alemannic German: Hamf, Yiddish: האַנף (hanf) < Middle High German: hanef, hanif, hanf < Old High German: hanaf, hanif

From these forms, one reconstructs Proto-West Germanic: *hanapi

Danish, Norwegian: hamp, Swedish: hampa, Icelandic: hampur < Old Norse: hampr

One gets reconstructed Proto-Germanic *hanapiz

Proto-Germanic was spoken around 500 BCE in N Germany, Denmark, S Sweden, and S Norway. It was not written down, but we have a good idea of it from the researches of historical linguists.

So we can be confident that these people grew hemp.

Reconstruction: Proto-Germanic/hanapiz - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

 

[Elixir]

If a pot smoker continues to abuse pot, thinking that it's risk free, then the problem isn't transient because they're not dealing with it.

Agreed. There’s nothing unique about weed in that regard. Generally speaking, recreational intoxicant problems are transient in the sense that when the intoxicant is removed the problem goes away. OTOH some things cause damage that is not transient. IMNSHO, marijuana is not one such thing to any significant degree.
I’ve read enough clinical critiques of weed to not be real interested in picking more of them apart. Maybe if I smoke some weed tonight I’ll get interested in it.

 

[rousseau]

If a pot smoker continues to abuse pot, thinking that it's risk free, then the problem isn't transient because they're not dealing with it.

Agreed. There’s nothing unique about weed in that regard. Generally speaking, recreational intoxicant problems are transient in the sense that when the intoxicant is removed the problem goes away. OTOH some things cause damage that is not transient. IMNSHO, marijuana is not one such thing to any significant degree.
I’ve read enough clinical critiques of weed to not be real interested in picking more of them apart. Maybe if I smoke some weed tonight I’ll get interested in it.

Alright, well if you find some interest a pretty good search term would be 'marijuana brain damage', to find out with certainty. Here's a link to that search.

If it's any consolation, I suspect your few puffs a day are quite safe.

 

[Janice Rael]

lol, @rousseau - you did not read any of the science information on Leafwell's site. Leafwell is *NOT* a "retailer" or sales or distribution site! Leafwell is a legal *medical* site and group that employs actual licensed *doctors* who *prescribe* medical-grade cannabis products to *patients* who are sick people.

You appear to lack common knowledge in addition to... ahem, I do not see you approaching this topic with an open mind or an interest in scientific inquiry.

Meanwhile, I've got ten tons of 21st-century material about this topic from more angles than you seem to be able to consider.

Please do not misrepresent me or what I post. That is so unfair and rude.

If you want to know about my marijuana retailer, or, dispensary, great! I love to talk about my legal dispensary experiences. There are other sites! Leafwell is one of many prescribers, not sellers.

Your mischaracterization of my material and total refusal to look at or discuss any of the actual scientific and medical information shown, just here, indicates to me that you're not approaching this with intellectual honesty. Prove me wrong.

 

[Elixir]

if you find some interest a pretty good search term would be 'marijuana brain damage', to find out with certainty. Here's a link to that search.

This got my attention from the intro:
“an illustration of the neuropathologic findings in a fatal case of cannabis-induced psychosis”
A case.
Can’t wait to find out what stupid thing someone did while stoned that caused their death. AFAIK, the toxic psychosis associated with pot consumption is uniformly short duration. But that doesn’t guarantee they won’t do something stupid while under the influence.
However I’m open to learning. Will report back if I can muster the required attention span. Thanks

 

[lpetrich]

*hanapiz looks a lot like "cannabis". To go further, we must consider  Grimm's law a famous sound correspondence between Germanic and other Indo-European languages. I'm also giving their reconstructed Proto-Indo-European forms.

• English that ~ Latin istud ~ Greek to ~ Sanskrit tat ~ Lithuanian tàs ~ Russian to < PIE *tod
• English three ~ Latin três ~ Greek treis ~ Sanskrit trayas ~ Lithuanian trỹs ~ Russian tri ~ Irish trí ~ Welsh tri ~ Armenian erek' < PIE *treyes
• English father ~ Latin pater ~ Greek patêr ~ Sanskrit pitar- ~ Irish athair ~ Armenian hayr < PIE *pHter- (*pëter-)
• English five ~ Latin quînque ~ Greek pente ~ Sanskrit panca ~ Lithuanian penkì ~ Russian pyat'~ Irish cúig ~ Welsh pump ~ Armenian hing < PIE *penkwe
• English who ~ Latin quis ~ Greek tis ~ Sanskrit ka ~ Lithuanian kàs ~ Russian kto ~ Irish cé ~ Welsh pwy < PIE *penkwe
• English hound ~ Latin canis ~ Greek kwon ~ Sanskrit s'van ~ Lithuanian šuõ ~ Irish cú ~ Welsh ci ~ Armenian shun < PIE *kwon-

I'm using Ancient Greek; Modern Greek has changes like patêr > pateras. I'm also omitting Romance descendants of Latin, like Italian tre, Spanish tres, and French trois, and also present-day Indic descendants of Sanskrit, like Hindi tîn, and other Germanic, Celtic, Baltic and Slavic forrms.

There are other sound shifts, like English two ~ Latin duo ~ Greek duo ~ Russian dva < PIE *duwo but I won't get into those.

Reversing Grimm's Law on *hanapiz gives *kanabis

With a very familiar appearance.

 

[lpetrich]

κάνναβις - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Ancient Greek: κάννᾰβῐς - kánnabis

That word was borrowed by ancient Romans as Latin cannabis, and that word has plenty of Romance descendants. Cannabis >

• Late Latin cannabum > Spanish cáñamo, Catalan cànem
• Late Latin canapa > Italian canapa
• Late Latin canava > Portuguese cânave, French chanvre

English "canvas" < Old French canevas < some Late Latin source

The French word has initial sound "sh", while Latin and the other Romance ones have "k". This is a sound shift in French, as is evident from other inherited words, like French chèvre < Latin capra, caper "goat".

This word has other cognates, like Armenian kanepʻ, Lithuan kanapė, and Proto-Slavic *konopu > Russian konopljá, Polish konopie, Czech konopí, Bulgarian konóp.

English "kenaf" refers to a different plant, Hibiscus cannabinus and its fiber. The word itself is from Persian kanaf, also a cognate.

 

[rousseau]

if you find some interest a pretty good search term would be 'marijuana brain damage', to find out with certainty. Here's a link to that search.

This got my attention from the intro:
“an illustration of the neuropathologic findings in a fatal case of cannabis-induced psychosis”
A case.
Can’t wait to find out what stupid thing someone did while stoned that caused their death. AFAIK, the toxic psychosis associated with pot consumption is uniformly short duration. But that doesn’t guarantee they won’t do something stupid while under the influence.
However I’m open to learning. Will report back if I can muster the required attention span. Thanks

The case is an illustration of the evidence they reviewed, the paper isn't based on the case itself.

 

[lpetrich]

κάνναβις - Wiktionary, the free dictionary ("kannabis") states that this word is a Kulturwort ("culture word") or Wanderwort ("wander word") of unknown origin. A wander word is a word that travels with what it names.

This word is probably not Proto-Indo-European, because its phonetic shape is atypical of PIE roots, with form CVCVC- instead of CVC-. It also has a "b" in it, and in traditional PIE reconstruction, "b" is very rare. This has provoked some reassessments of how to reconstruct the PIE stop consonants, like reconstructing that sound as more like "p".

Note that this issue does not affect Grimm's law and other sound correspondences; they still remain.

Fibers for fabrics are obtained from a variety of sources, both preindustrial and industrial:

• Plant stems: hemp, flax, kenaf, jute, ramie, rattan, ...
• Plant seed parachutes: cotton
• Various other plant parts
• Animal hair: sheep, goats, dogs
• Cocoon silk: caterpillars
• Metals: thin wires
• Plastics: polyester, nylon, Kevlar, ...

 Natural fiber

I refer to cotton fibers as seed parachutes because they are for catching the wind, like dandelion seeds.

 

[lpetrich]

marijuana - Wiktionary, the free dictionary < Mexican Spanish marihuana -- obscure origin

pot - Wiktionary, the free dictionary (marijuana) -- obscure origin

 

[rousseau]

lol, @rousseau - you did not read any of the science information on Leafwell's site. Leafwell is *NOT* a "retailer" or sales or distribution site! Leafwell is a legal *medical* site and group that employs actual licensed *doctors* who *prescribe* medical-grade cannabis products to *patients* who are sick people.

You appear to lack common knowledge in addition to... ahem, I do not see you approaching this topic with an open mind or an interest in scientific inquiry.

Meanwhile, I've got ten tons of 21st-century material about this topic from more angles than you seem to be able to consider.

Please do not misrepresent me or what I post. That is so unfair and rude.

If you want to know about my marijuana retailer, or, dispensary, great! I love to talk about my legal dispensary experiences. There are other sites! Leafwell is one of many prescribers, not sellers.

Your mischaracterization of my material and total refusal to look at or discuss any of the actual scientific and medical information shown, just here, indicates to me that you're not approaching this with intellectual honesty. Prove me wrong.

Ok, you're just trolling, got it. I appreciate you filling my afternoon. I'll go ahead and report my own post.

 

[Elixir]

Intellectual honesty can only be assessed within the context of what a person already knows.
I appreciate rousseau’s openness about his sources, even though so far (<15min) I am finding it rather vacuous as far as any specific behavioral or physiological malaise. “Indicates more study needed” looks like the general go-to in that regard.
Everything I’ve read at that link and it’s associated rabbit holes is like everything else I’ve read about it, so far.

 

[rousseau]

The top result at the link I posted is a meta-review that cited 43 papers. The whole thing isn't accessible but the abstract is all that's needed.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0887899416304787

I should note that most of my comments are based on reading I did a long time ago. And I really don't care about being right, I'd love it if pot was harmless. Just not the impression I'm getting.

If we don't like when Christians put their fingers in their ears it might be worthwhile holding ourselves to the same standard. If I was a chronic user I'd want to know.

 

[Jarhyn]

I suspect that it's more a "schiz* mindsets enjoy weed more" than a "weed enjoyment makes a mind go schiz*" kind of situation.

I would also be willing to hazard at least some of the correlation to "motivation" is also driven by my mindset.

I smoke weed because I can't do what I am motivated to do. It's a coping mechanism.

If I had a workshop to work in, I would feel less interested in smoking weed and shit posting, because I smoke weed and shitpost specifically when I can't actually do any of the shit I want to be doing.

I'm stoned right now.

I do think that there are some harms related to smoking weed, historically, but these are largely associated with illegality -- though not all, and not always. Among these are pesticides, mildew, and cutting agents (more a concern about with oil, but still a concern).

Pesticides will end up leeching into the plant itself by some measure, and if bugs get in, people will generally use pesticides. I doubt most pesticides are good for smoking. Unless there are regulations limiting pesticide use in state-legal programs, this can affect anyone... Though mostly those forced to deal with the unscrupulous.

Mildew is a problem with improper storage and drying, which is more of an issue with illicit sellers since they're under pressure to move stuff. My husband has thrown away a fair bit of weed that smelled like mildew, and it can seriously fuck someone up. Modern legal weed is packaged in ways resistant to moisture based damage, but is not immune to moisture based damage, either.

Finally, there is cutting. Sometimes people (idiots) buy some ground weed, and it's full of K2 or "spice" or whatever. Sometimes people buy oil and it has Vitamin E in it. Or worse. Again, this is much more an issue with illegal states, but I think there's a nonzero chance of cutting even in legal states where testing isn't stringent.

These are real risks that have caused real health harms with respect to weed. It is not unlike prohibition days when liquor would be cut with wood grain alcohol or was just badly distilled to start with, but the current environment wherein alcohol is so prolific, it's unprofitable and risky to sell stuff that isn't booze or isn't safe. The worst you will get with booze in that respect is a bottom shelf liquor in an expensive mixed drink, or watered booze at the bar.

I think this is less harmful than imbibing something that considered without cultural context would be widely understood as straight up poison & toxin.

This is not even considering the toxicity of cigarettes, which is on a whole different level.

Further, repeated studies show that weed alone does not contribute to driver culpability. To make weed dangerous on the road, rather than merely annoying to other drivers, it must be mixed with some other drug. Common "primary culpability drugs", for lack of a better term, include alcohol and opioids.

I would strongly oppose DUI charges for marijuana alone, and would instead declare it should be treated as modifiers only to an existing charge. "Mixed intoxication" vs "intoxication". In the face of such mixed intoxication, I would argue someone's license should be directly revoked.

I would say taken in comparison, Cannabis is the thing you should WISH people decided upon for "their vice".