Marijuana

[Elixir]

I'd love it if pot was harmless

I’d love it if fentanyl and irukandji were harmless. And water, too. Unfortunately banning water isn’t feasible but it probably kills almost as many people as fentanyl.
Weed? I really really don’t know anything for sure except that it hasn’t killed me yet, and it’s running out of time.
Sorry! Just got home from a mile+ in the pool, enjoying some endorphins and a puff of weed.

I would say taken in comparison, Cannabis is the thing you should WISH people decided upon for "their vice".

If I could assign vices to people…
That would be cool.

 

[rousseau]

I would say taken in comparison, Cannabis is the thing you should WISH people decided upon for "their vice".

I don't disagree. I know whenever I say anything negative about pot I become the heel of the convo, but all I'm saying is that overuse of it is generally a bad idea. And that's a problem because popular perception of the drug today is that it's harmless. Many scientific papers confirm this.

I'm not against people smoking, I smoked for many years. People just need to be better informed. Alcohol overuse is widely understood to be a bad idea, not sure if the same is true for pot.

 

[Jarhyn]

I would say taken in comparison, Cannabis is the thing you should WISH people decided upon for "their vice".

I don't disagree. I know whenever I say anything negative about pot I become the heel of the convo, but all I'm saying is that overuse of it is generally a bad idea. And that's a problem because popular perception of the drug today is that it's harmless. Many scientific papers confirm this.

I'm not against people smoking, I smoked for many years. People just need to be better informed. Alcohol overuse is widely understood to be a bad idea, not sure if the same is true for pot.

Yeah, they do. And my point was to put it to rest that there are no risks, because I demonstrated concrete and immediately impactful and observed real risks, and they are far from the only such risks!

The psychological "risks" need to always be presented with forewarning that they are correlative and not causative, however.

I do expect some lung damage happens over the years, largely impacting only the most frequent smokers.

I do think that, assuming the oil is benign itself, having some heavier, more viscous liquid than phlegm which has more ability to capture and move silicates which can emulsify with the phlegm could feasibly act to prevent certain lung conditions, for all the introduction of a hot vapor can itself do damage. There is a hypothesis with a plausible and well composed mechanism of underlying action, and I think that this should be researched for correctness. It could literally be that the occasional toke (even of mere CBD) could prevent lung damage.

I would propose a bunch of measurement and control groups in an animal study, or even a few different trials of this study with different particulates:

Control group 1: neither particulates or vapors. (Baseline health of a rat(?))

Control group 2: exposed to fine particulates, and then later water vapor at total energy of other vapors. (Baseline health of a rat exposed to environmental particulates)

Control group 3: exposed to fine particles and burned "barren" hemp plants whose cannabinoid oils have been CO2 extracted. (Baseline health of a rat exposed to particulates and smoke)

Control group 4: exposed only to smoke of "barren" hemp plants.

Test groups (all with particulates as per control 2):

1: inactive CBD vapors from concentrate
2: active CBD vapors from concentrate
3: smoke of normal industrial hemp plants
4: pot smoke
5: vapors from "concentrate"
6: vapors from nicotine
7: smoke from tobacco leaves

The study should ideally be done in four rounds, wherein particulates are disbursed in "high" and "normal" quantities/dosages as well as the smoke/vapor involved in that stage.

Following a year of study starting in the same season, the rats'(?) lungs would need to be removed and measured/scanned for particulate count, tumor frequency, and tracked for overall functionality through the study period.

We would then have strong evidence as to what effects marijuana use has on the lungs.

 

[Elixir]

Alcohol overuse is widely understood to be a bad idea

Yet it is the drug of choice for tens (hundreds?) of millions of Americans.
Do too much of it in a short period of time, you die. Try to consume a bunch of it and drive - people die. Etc etc.
When you equivocate it with weed, it should come as no surprise that you might become ”the heel”.
Pot is “widely understood” to have roots in Hell, to be physiologically addictive and to destroy lives on contact. That doesn’t make any of it true.

 

[rousseau]

Alcohol overuse is widely understood to be a bad idea

Yet it is the drug of choice for tens (hundreds?) of millions of Americans.
Do too much of it in a short period of time, you die. Try to consume a bunch of it and drive - people die. Etc etc.
When you equivocate it with weed, it should come as no surprise that you might become ”the heel”.
Pot is “widely understood” to have roots in Hell, to be physiologically addictive and to destroy lives on contact. That doesn’t make any of it true.

I didn't equivocate it with alcohol, though. I said people know the downsides of alcohol, they don't know the downsides of pot and should know about them. I don't understand why this is so controversial or hard to just accept and move on.

 

[Elixir]

they don't know the downsides of pot

After decades of anti-weed government propaganda, they probably don’t KNOW anything about it, but they think it’s deadly.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

People don't need big brother to protect them from drugs.

A stroll along Skid Row tells me otherwise.

Tells you the protection doesn't work.

A lot of people are going to use drugs regardless if they are legal or not, which is why I support legalization of recreational drugs. Even the strongest ones, if legal, could help users stay safe. Needle exchanges, offers of free rehab if desired and keeping an enormous number of people out of prisons would benefit society.

It’s not going so well in many US cities.

It's never been tried, how can you tell how it's going? Not busting users helps but most of the problem remains so long as there's an illegal marketplace.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

From what I remember as a child growing up right outside of New York City, it was ETOH that left people on "skid row". That's a legal drug that is probably one of, if not the worst, when abused. Why not offer help to people who abuse drugs, instead of locking them up? Why not make drug use safer, instead of being like a religious extremist who things they should be punished for their "sins"?

And the drunks on skid row, while unsightly were not a big problem. Those skid row bums could generally sustain their addiction through legal or petty theft type means. Unpleasant but not an actual danger. And alcohol users don't leave needles around.

Things like heroin, crack and meth, though, are expensive enough that users have to work much harder to afford them and are thus more likely to resort to violent means of obtaining them. Also, alcohol is a sedative whereas both crack and meth are stimulants. Well, duh, the stimulant user is likely the greater threat! When we hear of bad things happening it's usually crack, meth or PCP involved.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I suspect that it's more a "schiz* mindsets enjoy weed more" than a "weed enjoyment makes a mind go schiz*" kind of situation.

Or weed helps with the symptoms of schizophrenia.

I do think that there are some harms related to smoking weed, historically, but these are largely associated with illegality -- though not all, and not always. Among these are pesticides, mildew, and cutting agents (more a concern about with oil, but still a concern).

(Not lasting damage, but it can be nasty while it happens)

What’s Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome (CHS)?

CHS causes cycles of severe nausea and vomiting after long-term marijuana use. You can learn more here.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Pesticides will end up leeching into the plant itself by some measure, and if bugs get in, people will generally use pesticides. I doubt most pesticides are good for smoking. Unless there are regulations limiting pesticide use in state-legal programs, this can affect anyone... Though mostly those forced to deal with the unscrupulous.

Yeah, the legal pot industry has been quite unhappy about the fact that they now have to comply with the various rules meant to keep bad things out of our bodies.

Mildew is a problem with improper storage and drying, which is more of an issue with illicit sellers since they're under pressure to move stuff. My husband has thrown away a fair bit of weed that smelled like mildew, and it can seriously fuck someone up. Modern legal weed is packaged in ways resistant to moisture based damage, but is not immune to moisture based damage, either.

Pressure to move stuff would mean it wasn't sitting around. Rather, I think it comes down to accountability. Legal sellers can be held accountable.

These are real risks that have caused real health harms with respect to weed. It is not unlike prohibition days when liquor would be cut with wood grain alcohol or was just badly distilled to start with, but the current environment wherein alcohol is so prolific, it's unprofitable and risky to sell stuff that isn't booze or isn't safe. The worst you will get with booze in that respect is a bottom shelf liquor in an expensive mixed drink, or watered booze at the bar.

Exactly. Legal markets make the dealer responsible for bad product. Illegal markets they can sell anything that's not obviously bad product.

Further, repeated studies show that weed alone does not contribute to driver culpability. To make weed dangerous on the road, rather than merely annoying to other drivers, it must be mixed with some other drug. Common "primary culpability drugs", for lack of a better term, include alcohol and opioids.

Have they ever actually shown that? The drug-caused accident data is horribly contaminated by an obsession with showing drugs to be evil.

Many years back we had a big case here when a woman killed 8 teenagers and had marijuana in her system. Yeah--from the day before and completely irrelevant to the fact that the real issue was she fell asleep at the wheel.

I would strongly oppose DUI charges for marijuana alone, and would instead declare it should be treated as modifiers only to an existing charge. "Mixed intoxication" vs "intoxication". In the face of such mixed intoxication, I would argue someone's license should be directly revoked.

I'm not sure how to do it but what I would really like to see is some actual test--put the guy on a simulator and you're impaired if you can't pass, the reason you're impaired is irrelevant.

I would say taken in comparison, Cannabis is the thing you should WISH people decided upon for "their vice".

Definitely agree. It's almost certainly the most benign of the recreational drugs.

 

[Jarhyn]

Pressure to move stuff would mean it wasn't sitting around

Well, that's the thing... Properly curing weed to prevent mildew means... Just letting it sit around.

Moving it before it's cured and dried will mean it mildews quickly, especially after it gets bagged and is warm+moist even for a single day.

Have they ever actually shown that? The drug-caused accident data is horribly contaminated by an obsession with showing drugs to be evil.

Yes. The Canadian data, I think it was, was very damning of mixed intoxication.

Even research linked by NORML makes this observation (that's ultimately where I last brushed up on studies on the topic).

Some studies do get conducted with the goal of finding drugs to be evil, and every such study that exonerates stoned driving throws in "driving high could be dangerous" type language, but repeated attempts to find that have all "swung out".

Oftentimes people will even hold up the mixed intoxication cohort to impugn weed, but even given the bias you mention, this is about the closest any study gets, beyond discussing specific effects.

I do recall a study where they tried to hold up a decrease to reaction times as damning but even then, the overall crash culpability didn't actually increase: observations indicated that stoned drivers just adjusted how they drove to account for their decreased reaction times.

I can speak from experience (not driving) that weed doesn't affect the part of the brain that alcohol and opioids do that makes a person unaware of how badly they are intoxicated. Mixed intoxication is so bad specifically because these drugs operate on different systems... But as soon as alcohol or opioids get involved, drivers stop compensating for their condition, because they become unaware of their condition.

There is startlingly strong agreement with the data, well supported "plausibility" arguments as to the reason for this, and pretty much anyone who has ever gotten 'twisted" will agree. FWIW my own experience heavily corroborates that: I can smoke a LOT and I'll only ever feel stoned, but as soon as I drink a single beer afterwards, it will feel and act a fool (recognized only after the fact) as if I was doing kegstands, vomiting and all. I've never made as much a fool of myself (or vomited quite as much) as when I've gotten twisted.

I think mixed intoxication deserves a special penalty because then people would have a cultural awareness driven by whatever propaganda discusses it. It would be a good soundbite and something for people to complain about and increase awareness with.

I would recommend digging up NORML's page on high driving literature, since that's where I started on the subject and it's surprisingly complete, and mostly from government funded studies IIRC.

Or weed helps with the symptoms of schizophrenia.

Well, I'm being careful enough to not just discuss schitzophrenia. Schizoid and Schitzotypal personalities also tend to smoke a bit, and when I'm stoned I do notice that I pull back the blocks on my own schitz* temporarily, and let the faucet open on that part of my thought process more.

For some, I imagine that this leads to some very unfortunate results, especially if they mix alcohol with it (stripping their ability to even understand what they are saying), but my mind will go to absolutely WILD places on weed, and that is not necessarily the best thing for people with schitz*.

I have a friend whose sister has a much more powerful schitz* complex than mine, and sometimes reality just takes a hike for her. One minute things will be normal and the next minute the cat is God and she's on a quest to save the sun from martians or some shit. It's not usually good for anyone to "open the faucet" on that kind of thing.

For me, it usually just allows me to consider ideas that I would disregard more readily in "default mode", makes me less prone to proofreading, and causes me to write more run-on sentences or drop more words than normal. On a really heavy stone, I might end up dropping whole sentences.

So I don't think it treats Schitz*. But... Honestly, it feels really good just opening the faucet on that. My expectation is that people who have more pressure on that faucet get more enjoyment from opening it up? I could be entirely wrong though.

 

[Janice Rael]

marijuana - Wiktionary, the free dictionary < Mexican Spanish marihuana -- obscure origin

pot - Wiktionary, the free dictionary (marijuana) -- obscure origin

Hey LP, it may interest you to know that a lot of people don't say "marijuana" for a variety of reasons regarding stigma associated with the word.

But I'm Gen X, and I grew up watching stoner movies.

"Marijuana is its slave name, man!"

I'm going from a hazy memory, but I think that it's a line from a Cheech and Chong pot culture movie. They were made for people older than me; by the time I saw them, probably on HBO, had already fallen out of favor.

Here is a 2019 article with some very limited and some wrong words and history of weed words. Ask me if you want to know more.

For example, they tell the "420" story without saying that it originated as the time 4:20pm, which is when those California students would meet to get high.

On the TV show, "That 70s Show," the characters made a circle, which is how a lot of cannabis consumers, or, potheads, would and do sit to smoke up. It's a very social drug, unlike, well, all the other drugs.

Reeder Madness is racist.

Oh no, those handsome and talented Black jazz musicians are smiling and so are the ladies in the room! We must stop this!

Henry Anslinger was terrible but he was in the pockets of the paper companies, who were competing with hemp.
Hence the tax act.


oh, the article!

Kamala is on the screen, she will take it off of Schedule I. Then, more scientific studies can be done.
 

From Mary Jane to marijuana: The ever-evolving language for cannabis

The recreational drug that secured its place in popular culture long ago is entering a new era of respectability. But what do we call it now, wonders Laura M Holson

www.independent.co.uk

Jazz Cabbage

 

[ideologyhunter]

Isn't it amazing that 60 years after the 60s, this is still just getting settled in America? It is, to me.
I take no intoxicants whatever and don't wish to be buzzed, high, stoned, any of the rest. Got stone drunk once because I was curious, as a college freshman (Christmas week, 1972), and found out what the comedians were talking about with hangover jokes. Lesson well learned. I don't drink any form of alcohol, don't like the taste, and I have an innate dread of being out of control. Didn't do pot when it was all over campus; thought the stoned people I met were 100% boring and useless when they were high.
But I say, legalize and keep extending the legalization. If you're an adult, you should be able to indulge. It's the legal shit that cuts a swath of death through the country. Tobacco use killed my dad and two of my aunts. The family members who didn't smoke lived much longer lives and (generally) didn't face hideous cancers late in life. (Yes, I know there are ideopathic cancers. I lost a sister to one.)
Finally, one of the saddest stories about pot that I know of -- this happened in my state, Ohio, about 15 years ago, before our laws changed. A former student of mine got a job in a local grocery store. First they had him stocking shelves, then decided he had the skills to take a cashier position that had opened. He was fast and efficient and extremely good with human relations -- I felt a surge of pride when I saw him at his post. Before long they promoted him to a junior management position. He was clearly up to a leadership position, and it could have been a springboard to even more success. All this occurred in a little over a year. Then I heard that he had been pulled over and a cop found marijuana in his car. Long story short: the store fired him. I didn't see him for quite a while, and the next time I saw him, he was working for a short time at the same store -- stocking the shelves. This didn't last long, and after that he largely vanished. I see him in town maybe once or twice a year, and don't know how he's doing. This made me burning angry. Still does. Disproportional, short-sighted, destructive action.

 

[Elixir]

Mildew is a problem with improper storage and drying, which is more of an issue with illicit sellers since they're under pressure to move stuff. My husband has thrown away a fair bit of weed that smelled like mildew, and it can seriously fuck someone up. Modern legal weed is packaged in ways resistant to moisture based damage, but is not immune to moisture based damage, either.

When weed is legal there is no reason for that to happen.
I put away the last couple of jars of buds from 2023 just a few weeks ago, and have been enjoying some ‘21 and ‘22.

Once harvested I let it dry very slowly and once it is completely dry to the point of being crumbly, I put it away where it won’t get jostled and broken. It’s easy to rehydrate a little at a time with a drop of distilled water on a bit of paper towel stuck to the inside lid of a jar.
My weed never sits around at ideal moisture for more than a few days. It lasts literally for years that way with literally no noticeable degradation.
The dry climate helps.

 

[Swammerdami]

I went "cold turkey" 11 weeks ago at my daughter's request insistence.
(Not "cold turkey" in the sense of a dreary withdrawal period. I have experienced that before but my recent usage had been much too slight for that to be a concern.)

But my daughter is out of town for the week. Will someone here grant me an amnesty to try at least a puff or two? (I'll leave a window open to flush any aroma and even put a damp rag under the door sill as we did in the olden days!) With such an amnesty, my conscience will be absolved; and I can blame you guys should the daughter find out!

 

[Elixir]

I went "cold turkey" 11 weeks ago at my daughter's request insistence.
(Not "cold turkey" in the sense of a dreary withdrawal period. I have experienced that before but my recent usage had been much too slight for that to be a concern.)

But my daughter is out of town for the week. Will someone here grant me an amnesty to try at least a puff or two? (I'll leave a window open to flush any aroma and even put a damp rag under the door sill as we did in the olden days!) With such an amnesty, my conscience will be absolved; and I can blame you guys should the daughter find out!

Oh fercrissakes. Go outside and take one puff from a pipe. That's what I do (NO smoking ANYTHING in the house!).
If weather is bad I'll claim exception for the garage.

 

[Janice Rael]

As a longtime activist on the issues of cannabis legislation and medical use, I herby absolve you, @Swammerdami and everyone else, of any guilt you may feel regarding your use of cannabis, and hereby agree that it's okay to puff puff pass to yourself discreetly, and hopefully without any negative legal or local repercussions.

Please do not risk jail or over herb, if you're not able to safely and legally obtain and consume or use it.

I'm sure I've spoken of My Friend From Singapore, and the look on his face when I left his side to go walk with a Black man who was publicly puffing on a Philadelphia street, not legally.

My friend gave me ALL of his perspectives about cannabis and other drugs, which are totally outlawed in Singapore, under penalty of caning and jail. Very enlightening (cough cough).

American tourists have been jailed in when caught with cannabis in other countries.

Cannabis laws in the USA have traditionally been aimed at incarceration, mostly of Black and Hispanic or Latino men. White privilege allows people like me to flaunt cannabis laws.

But I don't have to do that now. I have a legal medical card; Leafwell has my medical information saved in their site. I speak with an actual MD once a year to recerrify and discuss my medical conditions and the various products I use for various problems.

I buy the legal cannabis products at dispensaries that all have computers connected to the state. All of the products are bar coded from seed to point of sale. In Pennsylvania, there is a lot of oversight.

Pennsylvania banned the use of food flavors in oil vapes in 2021 when they learned that the additives were not safe.

When I run out of herb to puff, and capsules and tablets, etc, I still have my Doc Solomon's Cream for my stupid hands.

Potheads try not to run out, hehe. Weed will get you through times of no food or no _____ better than food or _____ will get you through times of no weed. I have priorities.

 

[Swammerdami]

Oh fercrissakes. Go outside and take one puff from a pipe. That's what I do (NO smoking ANYTHING in the house!).
If weather is bad I'll claim exception for the garage.

TL;DR -- I took your advice (and implicit absolution!), but for a different reason. I took a sojourn up and down the stair-case to enter our tiny outdoor patio; and took two puffs from an indica reefer I rolled 12 weeks ago. (In between the two puffs, a Farang (Westerner) ran by -- take THAT and put it in the astrological coincidences thread. He was obviously getting his run exercise now (almost midnight) when it's cool.

I am left with a slightish but VERY pleasant buzz. This is contrary to my usual behavior where I might now open a window and take another puff or three. The staircase "obstacle" introduces a psychological obstacle to the next puff. I think I'll repeat this experiment in a couple of weeks (or less).

ETA: Thanks for YOUR absolution also, Janice.

 

[Elixir]

I am left with a slightish but VERY pleasant buzz. This is contrary to my usual behavior where I might now open a window and take another puff or three. The staircase "obstacle" introduces a psychological obstacle to the next puff.

LOL!! That’s my device for keeping myself from leaving myself to my own vice devices. Absent that second thought moment, I’d probably smoke myself into oblivion. Gives me chance to remember - I might want to smoke some more, but do I want to feel like I will in 3-4 hours, if I do? Not likely.
And so evolved my 1-2 puff habit.

 

[lpetrich]

Hemp ~ cannabis < *kanabis -- but *b is not a very common sound. Here are some other sounds with the same voicing, with some more of Grimm's law:

English two ~ Latin duo ~ Greek duo ~ Sanskrit dva ~ Russian dva ~ Irish dhá ~ Welsh dau ~ Armenian erku < PIE *dwoH
English ten ~ Latin decem ~ Greek deka ~ Sanskrit das'a ~ Russian desyat' ~ Irish deich ~ Welsh deg ~ Armenian tasa < PIE *dekm
English knee ~ Latin genü ~ Greek gonu ~ Sanskrit jânu ~ Irish glúin ~ Welsh glin ~ Armenian cunk < PIE *gonu
English cow ~ Latin bôs ~ Greek bous ~ Sanskrit go ~ Irish bó ~ Welsh buwch ~ Armenian kov < PIE *gwows

Here's another place where one can find *b itself:

English apple < Old English æppel -- Dutch appel -- German Apfel < Old High German apful -- Danish æble, Norwegian eple, Swedish äpple, Icelandic epli < Old Norse epli -- < Proto-Germanic *aplaz, *apluz, *apaliją

Irish úll < Old Irish ubull -- Welsh afal -- < Proto-Celtic *abūl

Russian jábloko, Ukrainian jábluko < Old East Slavic jablŭko -- Polish jabłko, Czech jablko, Slovak jablko -- Slovenian jábołko, Serbo-Croatian jȁbuka, Macedonian jabolko, Bulgarian jábǎlka -- Proto-Slavic *ablŭko < *ablo + *-ŭko (diminutive)

Lithuanian obuolỹs, Latvian ābols, Proto-Slavic *ablo < Proto-Balto-Slavic *âbôl

These forms give us possible PIE *abôl, with Germanic p ~ other b according to Grimm's law. But there is a problem: Germanic, Celtic, and Balto-Slavic speakers are ancestrally northern Europeans, so that word was likely an early borrowing that spread among them along with the tree and its fruit. That's the usual theory for *kanabis > cannabis, hemp, spreading with the cannabis/hemp plant. Note also that both words were in Pre-Proto-Germanic before its speakers did the Grimm's-Law sound shift.

 

[lpetrich]

I'll now turn to our  Endocannabinoid system

The endocannabinoid system (ECS) is a biological system composed of endocannabinoids, which are endogenous lipid-based retrograde neurotransmitters that bind to cannabinoid receptors, and cannabinoid receptor proteins that are expressed throughout the vertebrate central nervous system (including the brain) and peripheral nervous system.

This is why our nervous systems respond to THC -  Tetrahydrocannabinol - the main psychoactive constituent of marijuana and a  Cannabinoid

How was that able to happen? First off, hemp/cannabis plants are native to eastern Asia, and humanity originated far from there. Our nervous system makes "endocannabinoids" - neurotransmitters that THC mimics. These attach to receptors like  Cannabinoid receptor 1 (CB1) and  Cannabinoid receptor 2 (CB2).

The evolution and comparative neurobiology of endocannabinoid signalling - PMC - genes for both CB1 and CB2 have been found in bony vertebrates, but not in sharks or jawless fish. Sharks and lampreys have CB1 but not CB2, and the amphioxus and sea squirts have receptors similar to CB1/CB2, but no non-chordates.


THC is one of numerous  Secondary metabolite and many plants make them to attack would-be eaters of them. Some other secondary metabolites that are psychoactive for us are caffeine (in coffee, tea) and theobromine (in chocolate), and nicotine (in tobacco).

Fun fact: dogs can be poisoned by chocolate. That's because our ancestors had much more chance to be exposed to such substances than dogs' ancestors, and that includes ancestors long before they were very humanlike or doglike. For our ancestors, that was likely all the way back to ancestral mammals in the mid-Mesozoic, which were much like opossums. Dogs' ancestors specialized in hunting other animals back in the Eocene, some 50 million years ago, and they were weasel-ish back then.