Marxism

[No Robots]

You van throw out a lot of words on ideology, but for any system it comes down to how you make your ideas work with real world flesh and blood humans.

Exactly.

China went from Marxist-Maoist to what they say is socialism. They make it work on the scale of China through rigid social and political control, an imposed conformity.. Look at what happened in Hong Kong.

You mean they made it work with real world flesh and blood humans? Erm, Q.E.D.?

 

[lostone]

You van throw out a lot of words on ideology, but for any system it comes down to how you make your ideas work with real world flesh and blood humans.

Exactly.

China went from Marxist-Maoist to what they say is socialism. They make it work on the scale of China through rigid social and political control, an imposed conformity.. Look at what happened in Hong Kong.

You mean they made it work with real world flesh and blood humans? Erm, Q.E.D.?

Making anything work with real humans is not easy, and requires a lot of prudent pragmatism. Something usually in short supply

 

[Bronzeage]

Will Rogers said, "Communism looks good on paper, but nobody has ever been able to make it work."

That's the basic problem. Every country which has tried to institute Marxism has devolved into a police state. It sort of works for small groups. A family is a kind of Marxist society. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", is the basic operating principle of a family unit. It helps that the needy ones are small and the able ones are big, which makes the family a benevolent police state.

There have been Marxist communes which have prospered for a while, but this was always a fairly small group of people. Once the population grows to the point where it's not possible to have a personal relationship with everyone in the group, it breaks down.

Given that our republic seems to be breaking apart, due to factionalism, which our founders feared, is there any system of government which will not fall apart sooner or later? Even Venezuela had a brief good run under Chavez, before it began breaking up.

Don't be such a Debbie Downer. We once split our Republic in two, killed 600,000 people and got back together, so I wouldn't worry too much about today's factionalism.

As it is, the United States hold second place on this planet for the longest continuous system of government. Iceland is number one and they have us beat by 400 to 500 years.

 

[bilby]

Will Rogers said, "Communism looks good on paper, but nobody has ever been able to make it work."

That's the basic problem. Every country which has tried to institute Marxism has devolved into a police state. It sort of works for small groups. A family is a kind of Marxist society. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", is the basic operating principle of a family unit. It helps that the needy ones are small and the able ones are big, which makes the family a benevolent police state.

There have been Marxist communes which have prospered for a while, but this was always a fairly small group of people. Once the population grows to the point where it's not possible to have a personal relationship with everyone in the group, it breaks down.

Given that our republic seems to be breaking apart, due to factionalism, which our founders feared, is there any system of government which will not fall apart sooner or later? Even Venezuela had a brief good run under Chavez, before it began breaking up.

Don't be such a Debbie Downer. We once split our Republic in two, killed 600,000 people and got back together, so I wouldn't worry too much about today's factionalism.

As it is, the United States hold second place on this planet for the longest continuous system of government. Iceland is number one and they have us beat by 400 to 500 years.

England has arguably had her current form of government since 1066, 1215, 1487, 1645, 1665, 1688, 1707, 1801, 1832, 1977, 1993, or 2020 (and some other years too, depending on how you want to define "current"). The USA has had hers since 1776, 1814, 1865, 1951, 1959, 1971, or 1992 (with the same caveat).

Antarctica has arguably had her current form of government (none at all) since about 183,000,000 BCE.

 

[lostone]

Will Rogers said, "Communism looks good on paper, but nobody has ever been able to make it work."

That's the basic problem. Every country which has tried to institute Marxism has devolved into a police state. It sort of works for small groups. A family is a kind of Marxist society. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", is the basic operating principle of a family unit. It helps that the needy ones are small and the able ones are big, which makes the family a benevolent police state.

There have been Marxist communes which have prospered for a while, but this was always a fairly small group of people. Once the population grows to the point where it's not possible to have a personal relationship with everyone in the group, it breaks down.

Given that our republic seems to be breaking apart, due to factionalism, which our founders feared, is there any system of government which will not fall apart sooner or later? Even Venezuela had a brief good run under Chavez, before it began breaking up.

Don't be such a Debbie Downer. We once split our Republic in two, killed 600,000 people and got back together, so I wouldn't worry too much about today's factionalism.

As it is, the United States hold second place on this planet for the longest continuous system of government. Iceland is number one and they have us beat by 400 to 500 years.

England has arguably had her current form of government since 1066, 1215, 1487, 1645, 1665, 1688, 1707, 1801, 1832, 1977, 1993, or 2020 (and some other years too, depending on how you want to define "current"). The USA has had hers since 1776, 1814, 1865, 1951, 1959, 1971, or 1992 (with the same caveat).

Antarctica has arguably had her current form of government (none at all) since about 183,000,000 BCE.

Are you sure about Antarctica? Are you sure that there have been no changes in penguin factions and social structures, no infighting?

 

[steve_bank]

You van throw out a lot of words on ideology, but for any system it comes down to how you make your ideas work with real world flesh and blood humans.

Exactly.

China went from Marxist-Maoist to what they say is socialism. They make it work on the scale of China through rigid social and political control, an imposed conformity.. Look at what happened in Hong Kong.

You mean they made it work with real world flesh and blood humans? Erm, Q.E.D.?

The 'communist state' is a warm fuzzy illumined future where as you quoted Marx politics and capitalism will just fade away. Not gong to happen with is humans. Unless we become an ant colony.

Western liberal democracy on a large international scale is an experiment not proven yet to be durable. The same problem.

Emotional, irrational, finicky humans.

The ponders did not a president elected by popular vote. Electors were supposed to be educed land holders who had a stake in stability.

I seriously doubt after living in North America you would want to permanently live in China today. You would not have the freedom of speech yiu have on this form.

I doubt the Chinese thought police would allow a prphet of global Judiasm on their soical media.

The question is at the global population as it is if any economic system is workable.

I tend to think not.

China is not Marxist. They gave it up along with a policy of global revolution.

 

[Politesse]

The question is at the global population as it is if any economic system is workable

"Workable" and "ideal" are not synonyms. All economic systems are functional, and for the most part emerge from unprompted behaviors as much as from any attempts at central planning. What they are functional at doing is mediating daily exchanges, though, not creating utopias.

 

[Bronzeage]

Will Rogers said, "Communism looks good on paper, but nobody has ever been able to make it work."

That's the basic problem. Every country which has tried to institute Marxism has devolved into a police state. It sort of works for small groups. A family is a kind of Marxist society. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", is the basic operating principle of a family unit. It helps that the needy ones are small and the able ones are big, which makes the family a benevolent police state.

There have been Marxist communes which have prospered for a while, but this was always a fairly small group of people. Once the population grows to the point where it's not possible to have a personal relationship with everyone in the group, it breaks down.

Given that our republic seems to be breaking apart, due to factionalism, which our founders feared, is there any system of government which will not fall apart sooner or later? Even Venezuela had a brief good run under Chavez, before it began breaking up.

Don't be such a Debbie Downer. We once split our Republic in two, killed 600,000 people and got back together, so I wouldn't worry too much about today's factionalism.

As it is, the United States hold second place on this planet for the longest continuous system of government. Iceland is number one and they have us beat by 400 to 500 years.

England has arguably had her current form of government since 1066, 1215, 1487, 1645, 1665, 1688, 1707, 1801, 1832, 1977, 1993, or 2020 (and some other years too, depending on how you want to define "current"). The USA has had hers since 1776, 1814, 1865, 1951, 1959, 1971, or 1992 (with the same caveat).

Antarctica has arguably had her current form of government (none at all) since about 183,000,000 BCE.

The current form of US government was codified in 1789. Since then it has been modified seventeen times, including one reversal of a previous modification. At this point in time, the UK still had a hereditary monarch who held actual political power. Every argument hangs on how you want to define anything.

 

[steve_bank]

The question is at the global population as it is if any economic system is workable

"Workable" and "ideal" are not synonyms. All economic systems are functional, and for the most part emerge from unprompted behaviors as much as from any attempts at central planning. What they are functional at doing is mediating daily exchanges, though, not creating utopias.

Huh? Russian and Chinese communism were not functional, both failed to provide basic necessities. Both had large scale famines.

Uhhh .... My eyes are 'functional' but do not work very well. A car with a flat tire is functional, it is drive\able.

Chinese socialism for a billion people is working, but oppressive by our western standards.

Authoritarian as Trump wants America to be.

China is socialist but they are having the same economic problems as western capitalism.

China has a wealth inequity.

Their real estate market collapsed with people losing money put into mortgages for new apartments and homes that are not being finished.

China's real estate crash is a prolonged downturn characterized by falling prices, high developer debt, and a decline in construction and sales, triggered by the government's 2021 lending restrictions known as the "Three Red Lines". The crisis has led to defaults by major developers like Evergrande, unfinished projects, and a dampening effect on the broader economy as consumer spending is constrained and confidence remains low.

China with low immigration and low birth rates is having a problem with an aging population and not enough young workers.

Communist, socialist,capitalist are ways of managing economics. Basic economics is the same.

So if you think China is some kind of utopia with an egalitarian just society free of western ills you wooed be wrong.

China's economy is based on growth as is the west.

You may not grasp the complexity of modern economies. Trump does not seem to understand. He is blindly tinkering with balances that evolved over long periods of time with potential disastrous consensuses.

 

[bilby]

The current form of US government was codified in 1789. Since then it has been modified seventeen times, including one reversal of a previous modification. At this point in time, the UK still had a hereditary monarch who held actual political power.

The English crown lost some of its power in 1215, and most in 1649 (but still has some power and much influence today, though the King has been persuaded not to attempt to wield his power); The US Constitution was last changed in 1992.

So clearly the US has one of the shortest continuous systems of government on the planet, at around 4% of the duration of England's system.

 

[Bomb#20]

Don't be such a Debbie Downer. We once split our Republic in two, killed 600,000 people and got back together, so I wouldn't worry too much about today's factionalism.

As it is, the United States hold second place on this planet for the longest continuous system of government. Iceland is number one and they have us beat by 400 to 500 years.

What the heck are you on about? Iceland was ruled by Denmark until WW1; it was an independent constitutional monarchy until WW2; then it was conquered by Britain to preempt a German invasion; then it was occupied by Canada; then it was occupied by the US; and in 1944 it abolished the monarchy and adopted its current system.

 

[Politesse]

You may not grasp the complexity of modern economies.

The irony...

 

[Politesse]

So if you think China is some kind of utopia with an egalitarian just society free of western ills you wooed be wrong.

You hallucinated this "position" out of whole cloth. Not only did I make no such claim, neither has anyone in this thread. If you want to have an adult conversation about this topic, reading comprehension is a must.

 

[steve_bank]

Politesse

You are too ideological and lack the understanding to have a discussion. Your responses are simplistic, childish, and ill informed.

If you want to become more aware of current events online

Bloomsburg(financial)
BBC
France 24
NHK Japan
ABC
CBS
NBC
NPR
PBS

There should be plenty of reports on the Chinese economy. Take a look at the Chinese justice system and compare to the west in terms of rights and protections. Search on the Chinese Maoist communist industry and why and how it changed. Take a look at the Chinese communist fanzine.

The "Chinese Communist famine," also known as the Great Chinese Famine, occurred from 1959 to 1961 and is considered the largest famine in human history
. While China's government has historically attributed the event to natural disasters, it was primarily a man-made catastrophe resulting from the policies of the Great Leap Forward under Chairman Mao Zedong. Estimates for the death toll vary, with current scholarly consensus ranging from 15 million to 55 million deaths.

The USSR experienced major famines in 1921–1922, the 1932–1933 (including the Holodomor in Ukraine), and 1946–1947. These were primarily man-made disasters resulting from forced agricultural collectivization and grain procurement policies under Joseph Stalin. While the 1920s famine saw American relief efforts, the later famines were characterized by government denial, suppression of information, and export of grain even as people starved.

Tribal or modern America the basic economics is the same.

1, Allocation of resources.
2. What gets produced and how much.
3. Who does what job.
4. Compensation.

Russian communism had central control of the economy. Compensation and production was set. Full employment was claimed, but they did it by make work jobs. Like monitoring an escalator at a train station.

Free market capitalism dynamically adjusts material costs, product price, wages, jobs, and production IAW supply and demand.

If demand for a product goes below a profitable level the product goes away.

Russian and Chinese state run industry set by the state were inefficient and burdensome. No incentive to change or improve or innovate.

If demand for a skill goes up wages go up. Welding has chronically had a labor shortage and experienced welders can make more than an experienced college grad.

It is reported that younger people are choosing the trades insane of college, better opportunities and job security. That is how free market economics works. A high degree of freedom of choice.

You once told me to read books. I did read books, just not mythology. May I suggest you broaden your horizons.

I am not an expert in economic theory, but I spent my time in the prosaically everyday aspects of the economy. Not walking around in a toga. Frivolity.

 

[Politesse]

Bloomsburg(financial)
BBC
France 24
NHK Japan
ABC
CBS
NBC
NPR
PBS

You've convinced me! I need to stop reading actual books and just watch the news. Dan Rather knows what's goin' on.

 

[Bronzeage]

Don't be such a Debbie Downer. We once split our Republic in two, killed 600,000 people and got back together, so I wouldn't worry too much about today's factionalism.

As it is, the United States hold second place on this planet for the longest continuous system of government. Iceland is number one and they have us beat by 400 to 500 years.

What the heck are you on about? Iceland was ruled by Denmark until WW1; it was an independent constitutional monarchy until WW2; then it was conquered by Britain to preempt a German invasion; then it was occupied by Canada; then it was occupied by the US; and in 1944 it abolished the monarchy and adopted its current system.

Okay, that makes us Number One.

 

[lostone]

Don't be such a Debbie Downer. We once split our Republic in two, killed 600,000 people and got back together, so I wouldn't worry too much about today's factionalism.

As it is, the United States hold second place on this planet for the longest continuous system of government. Iceland is number one and they have us beat by 400 to 500 years.

What the heck are you on about? Iceland was ruled by Denmark until WW1; it was an independent constitutional monarchy until WW2; then it was conquered by Britain to preempt a German invasion; then it was occupied by Canada; then it was occupied by the US; and in 1944 it abolished the monarchy and adopted its current system.

Okay, that makes us Number One.

#1s lose all the time, and get replaced by another #1

 

[Bronzeage]

Don't be such a Debbie Downer. We once split our Republic in two, killed 600,000 people and got back together, so I wouldn't worry too much about today's factionalism.

As it is, the United States hold second place on this planet for the longest continuous system of government. Iceland is number one and they have us beat by 400 to 500 years.

What the heck are you on about? Iceland was ruled by Denmark until WW1; it was an independent constitutional monarchy until WW2; then it was conquered by Britain to preempt a German invasion; then it was occupied by Canada; then it was occupied by the US; and in 1944 it abolished the monarchy and adopted its current system.

Okay, that makes us Number One.

#1s lose all the time, and get replaced by another #1

Check back with me in a couple hundred years or so.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The thread is yours. Feel free to elaborate as you wish.

Russia and China were not global powers, they were small military threats with the overt goal of replacing western democracy with global communism by force.

China and Russia are today world powers. This is the direct result of Marxism. Here is Waton on this:

But, you say, look at Russia, there communism failed. This the upholders of the present order tell us to convince us that it is of no use to dream of communism. Well, look at Russia. Did communism fail in Russia? Why. communism succeeded there beyond all expectations. It completely destroyed the old order and annihilated its upholders from the top to the bottom, and cleared the terrain for the rule the proletariat and its possession of one sixth of the earth. A most marvellous achievement! That the Russian revolution could not inaugurate communism as an order of existence in Russia, this is due to the fact that communism is a social order. and not an order of existence for a particular country or a particular nation. In the midst of a capitalist environment communism in Russia could succeed only as a movement: and that is enough for the time being. But pretty soon communism as a movement will comprehend the whole world. That world revolution will make it possible for communism as a social order.

"Pretty soon" may yet be a long time. But perhaps not.

You are assuming that destroying the old order and bringing about the communism is a good thing.

I have not seen data on the effects on Russia, but consider a similar situation: The French Revolution. Wiped out the old order--and set France back by about 30 years in the process. Likewise, let's look at China--their Cultural Revolution killed 10% of the population. I'm not coming up with an example of where wiping out the old order produced a good outcome. (Note that this is different than simply overthrowing the government. We saw several pretty close to peaceful revolutions in eastern Europe, most were good for the country.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

All systems of governing seem to fall apart when it comes to controlling the elites, which is where they all seem to fail. Left and Right.

The CCP in China does. In the 90s they were shooting people for corruption.

They're all corrupt. They're just shooting the ones without enough connections.