• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Marxism

I don't know where DrZoidberg got his history, but property rights are as old as humanity, even if very limited property rights, as far as I can tell. One owned one's personal possessions, whatever one could catch or find, and one's campsite and hut, but not much else, if anything. Campsites were likely collectively owned, something relatively easy to manage for small groups, what humanity had lived as for nearly all the existence of our species.

 Twelve Tables - ancient Rome's first codified laws. A lot of those laws are about property issues, and IIRC a lot of later Roman law was also about property issues.
 
Campsites were likely collectively owned, something relatively easy to manage for small groups, what humanity had lived as for nearly all the existence of our species.
I’ve long thought that the scale of difficulty of the management of collectives is equal to the square of the number of members of the collective.
 
We all hang together, or we all hang separately.

Ben Franklin

Capitalism or socialism? Or a blend. Marxism and Capitalism.

Or doom ourselves with extremist absolutism.
 
Here's a question: How long must one hold stolen property before it can be considered one's own property, in a moral sense?
Natural rights and natural property rights are not natural. They're made up. Any rule regarding property rights is as good as any other.

Its the law that decides what is considered stealing. If the law says its not stealing, then it isn't.

The western tradition of respecting property rights comes from England and the French and Spanish kings jealously looking at England and how easy it was for the English crown to borrow money from eager Brits. Because the English crown made a thing of always paying back loans they had access to more money, and thus won wars.

That's all.

Or to put it another way, we should respect property rights when it makes sense and ignore them when they don't. I'm a pragmatic. Whatever works is what we should do. I don't care what ideological label we slap onto it
Suppose your father stole my car. You inherit the car and one day I see you park it on the street. I happen to still have the spare key. I get in the car and drive away. Am I a car thief.

This is a different conversation. I am not arguing against property rights. I'm arguing against the idea that they're natural, as if given by a god. Property rights is a result of a social contract, ie culture.

I can imagine a scenario where all wealth is concentrated in a tiny elite and normal people struggle to get by. In that scenario it makes sense to loosen up property rights. We're already doing that. That's what tax financed welfare is.

Nietzsche made a convincing argument that we're only for property rights if we have stuff we don't want stolen. I think that's how it works.

Back in the day it used to be uncontroversial to own slaves. They certainly thought that was the natural way of things. I disagree.

Of to put it differently, do you really think there's no possible scenario where its ok to ignore property rights?
 
Here's a question: How long must one hold stolen property before it can be considered one's own property, in a moral sense?
Natural rights and natural property rights are not natural. They're made up. Any rule regarding property rights is as good as any other.

Its the law that decides what is considered stealing. If the law says its not stealing, then it isn't.

The western tradition of respecting property rights comes from England and the French and Spanish kings jealously looking at England and how easy it was for the English crown to borrow money from eager Brits. Because the English crown made a thing of always paying back loans they had access to more money, and thus won wars.

That's all.

Or to put it another way, we should respect property rights when it makes sense and ignore them when they don't. I'm a pragmatic. Whatever works is what we should do. I don't care what ideological label we slap onto it
Suppose your father stole my car. You inherit the car and one day I see you park it on the street. I happen to still have the spare key. I get in the car and drive away. Am I a car thief.

This is a different conversation. I am not arguing against property rights. I'm arguing against the idea that they're natural, as if given by a god. Property rights is a result of a social contract, ie culture.

I can imagine a scenario where all wealth is concentrated in a tiny elite and normal people struggle to get by. In that scenario it makes sense to loosen up property rights. We're already doing that. That's what tax financed welfare is.

Nietzsche made a convincing argument that we're only for property rights if we have stuff we don't want stolen. I think that's how it works.

Back in the day it used to be uncontroversial to own slaves. They certainly thought that was the natural way of things. I disagree.

Of to put it differently, do you really think there's no possible scenario where its ok to ignore property rights?
A contract, social or otherwise, is an exchange of goods or services for something of value, between two people who think the exchange is equal. The rest is definitions and terms.

So the question remains, did I steal your car?
 
Deficiencies in the operationalization of Marxism are largely deficiencies in the composition of the vanguard of the proletariat. The solution to this problem is to constitute the vanguard as a “spiritual elite”, a cadre trained in the philosophy of Spinoza and his intellectual descendants: Hegel, Constantin Brunner, Harry Waton and John Macmurray.

This is Leninism. Not Marxism. And was simply a necessity if Lenin wanted to concentrate power in his own hands. Because the Bolsheviks were very much in the minority. The majority was the mensheviks, and they were what we today would define as middle of the road social democrats. As became the norm all over Europe in the 20th century. If the Bolsheviks hadn't seized power USSR would have become a standard European democratic country. And our definition of communism would have been completely different.

We know that Marx was not in favour of a tiny communist vanguard forcing communism upon the people. The communist manifesto was a product from studying the French Revolution closely. Marx was very much aware how the Committee of Public safety and the terror played out. The communist Russian terror following the Russian revolution follows pretty closely the French revolutionary pattern. Marx explicitly didn't want this. It's fair to say that Marx is one of the top French Revolutionary scholars.

But Marx did not have a theory on how this would work. His idea was that










Here's a question: How long must one hold stolen property before it can be considered one's own property, in a moral sense?
Natural rights and natural property rights are not natural. They're made up. Any rule regarding property rights is as good as any other.

Its the law that decides what is considered stealing. If the law says its not stealing, then it isn't.

The western tradition of respecting property rights comes from England and the French and Spanish kings jealously looking at England and how easy it was for the English crown to borrow money from eager Brits. Because the English crown made a thing of always paying back loans they had access to more money, and thus won wars.

That's all.

Or to put it another way, we should respect property rights when it makes sense and ignore them when they don't. I'm a pragmatic. Whatever works is what we should do. I don't care what ideological label we slap onto it
Suppose your father stole my car. You inherit the car and one day I see you park it on the street. I happen to still have the spare key. I get in the car and drive away. Am I a car thief.

This is a different conversation. I am not arguing against property rights. I'm arguing against the idea that they're natural, as if given by a god. Property rights is a result of a social contract, ie culture.

I can imagine a scenario where all wealth is concentrated in a tiny elite and normal people struggle to get by. In that scenario it makes sense to loosen up property rights. We're already doing that. That's what tax financed welfare is.

Nietzsche made a convincing argument that we're only for property rights if we have stuff we don't want stolen. I think that's how it works.

Back in the day it used to be uncontroversial to own slaves. They certainly thought that was the natural way of things. I disagree.

Of to put it differently, do you really think there's no possible scenario where its ok to ignore property rights?
A contract, social or otherwise, is an exchange of goods or services for something of value, between two people who think the exchange is equal. The rest is definitions and terms.

No, its not. The social contract is a concept Rousseau came up with. Its about who should wield power.

Rousseau, being a proto-anarchist, would most certainly disagree with your definition

Here's the key quote from his book, "The Social contract":

"property is legitimate only when protected and regulated by the general will."

This is exactly the ideas that made it into the "Communist Manifesto" and came to define socialism.

I get the impression that you've read too much loony libertarian posts in the Internet. I think your definition starts with the assumption of natural property rights. Don't you?

I'll reiterate, I'm not arguing against property rights. I just care about how these ideas developed over time and what thinker said what. I care about how values develop and change over time.

We have a bad habit of assuming that our ancestors thought exactly like us and had the same values. They most certainly didn't.

When Rousseau wrote that, France was an absolute monarchy and French people only had property as long as the king allowed it. So the only person in France with any property rights, or rights of any kind, was the king. That's the context.

So the question remains, did I steal your car?

The answer is of course, it depends on the cultural context. I think that's the only possible answer.
 
Last edited:
Suppose your father stole my car. You inherit the car and one day I see you park it on the street. I happen to still have the spare key. I get in the car and drive away. Am I a car thief.
No.

This is a different conversation. I am not arguing against property rights. I'm arguing against the idea that they're natural, as if given by a god. Property rights is a result of a social contract, ie culture.
Gah! E.O. Wilson was right -- it's long past time we took ethics away from the philosophers and gave it to the biologists. Of course property rights are natural, i.e., not artificial, i.e., not man-made. This follows immediately from the observation that our property rights are homologous to chimps' property rights -- the common ancestor evidently had property rights millions of years before there were any men to make them.

As far as "as if given by a god" goes, what's a god? A creator? Well, they were given us by our creator. That our creator was natural selection just means we got our rights from something that actually exists, which is a winning point against theories that ascribe rights to mythical make-believe fairy-tale characters such as a god or a social contract.

Of to put it differently, do you really think there's no possible scenario where its ok to ignore property rights?
 
A contract, social or otherwise, is an exchange of goods or services for something of value, between two people who think the exchange is equal.
Stuff and nonsense. If they thought it was equal they'd have no reason to go to the trouble of exchanging. It's an exchange between two people who each value what they're given more than what they're giving up. It only works because valuation is subjective, valuer-relative. There's no contradiction between the loaf of bread I just bought being worth more than $5 to me and less than $5 to the grocer. Objective value theories are metaphysical gibberish. Marxism is an objective value theory.

The rest is definitions and terms.
No, its not. The social contract is a concept Rousseau came up with. Its about who should wield power.
Rousseau didn't come up with it -- he cribbed it from Thomas Hobbes.
 
Suppose your father stole my car. You inherit the car and one day I see you park it on the street. I happen to still have the spare key. I get in the car and drive away. Am I a car thief.
No.

This is a different conversation. I am not arguing against property rights. I'm arguing against the idea that they're natural, as if given by a god. Property rights is a result of a social contract, ie culture.
Gah! E.O. Wilson was right -- it's long past time we took ethics away from the philosophers and gave it to the biologists. Of course property rights are natural, i.e., not artificial, i.e., not man-made. This follows immediately from the observation that our property rights are homologous to chimps' property rights -- the common ancestor evidently had property rights millions of years before there were any men to make them.

As far as "as if given by a god" goes, what's a god? A creator? Well, they were given us by our creator. That our creator was natural selection just means we got our rights from something that actually exists, which is a winning point against theories that ascribe rights to mythical make-believe fairy-tale characters such as a god or a social contract.

Of to put it differently, do you really think there's no possible scenario where its ok to ignore property rights?


I'm an atheist. Natural property rights require a god they could have come from.
 

The rest is definitions and terms.
No, its not. The social contract is a concept Rousseau came up with. Its about who should wield power.
Rousseau didn't come up with it -- he cribbed it from Thomas Hobbes.

True. And Hobbes idea of property rights is even weaker than Rousseau's. Hobbes' idea is this:
  • Social contract = “We’ll behave if someone keeps order.”
  • Property rights = “You own stuff because the state says so — and only because the state says so.”
 
I don't know where DrZoidberg got his history, but property rights are as old as humanity...
Older. Much much older. Chimpanzees have property rights.

I'm pretty sure John Locke wasn't a chimpanzee.

You're making the classic mistake of thinking that our ancestors thought just like we did. They didn't.
 
Last edited:
I'm an atheist. Natural property rights require a god they could have come from.
That's contradictory. As an atheist, you should be aware that nothing natural requires a god it could have come from.

"I'm an atheist. Crude oil requires a god it could have come from". So... does crude oil not exist? Or is it not natural? Or are you an atheist who believes that god created crude oil? Or whaf?
 
As to chimpanzees and property rights, where is that from? How is that judged? From acting as if they respect other chimps' wanting to hold on to something?
 
As to chimpanzees and property rights, where is that from? How is that judged? From acting as if they respect other chimps' wanting to hold on to something?
Exactly. I got it from one of Richard Leakey's books; he said he got it from Jane Goodall.
 
I'm an atheist. Natural property rights require a god they could have come from.
You're an atheist. Why are you uncritically accepting theist propaganda?

In the first place, why on earth would natural property rights require a god? In the second place, how could a god go about bestowing a right on someone if she didn't already have it? "God said you shouldn't steal Bronzeage's car." does not logically imply you shouldn't steal his car. And in the third place, if a god did somehow manage to bestow a right, what the bejesus would be natural about it? If the theists are correct about gods then they're supernatural, not natural. But of course we're atheists -- we know perfectly well theists are wrong about gods and man created gods in his image. Any rights they bestow are artificial.
 
I don't know where DrZoidberg got his history, but property rights are as old as humanity...
Older. Much much older. Chimpanzees have property rights.

I'm pretty sure John Locke wasn't a chimpanzee.
I'm pretty sure John Locke wasn't the first property owner. Why do you keep pushing this narrative where the British invented property rights? Property is one of the items on Dr. Brown's famous list of "human universals" -- features found in every society anthropologists have checked for them in.

You're making the classic mistake of thinking that our ancestors thought just like we did.
What evidence do you have that I think they did?

They didn't.
Obviously. Not even my parents think like me.
 
The meaningful question is what kind of society do we want to live in, and how do we get there. If we can't agree on our destination, can we agree on anything?
 
I don't know where DrZoidberg got his history, but property rights are as old as humanity...
Older. Much much older. Chimpanzees have property rights.

I'm pretty sure John Locke wasn't a chimpanzee.

You're making the classic mistake of thinking that our ancestors thought just like we did. They didn't.
What is your evidence for the second statement? How can you know it is true or even false?
I think that a person living in a different space (another location on Earth) thinks the same way in general (individual differences in some aspects) as other people. Similarly I think that people living in another time (our ancestors) think like us. It's not a matter of thinking differently, but having different data to process. Ask someone what colour is a swan - the Australian will say black, the Brit white. The ancestor had to process how to deal with not being eaten by a leopard, but the thinking process is the same as a modern person (ignoring any differences caused by language and experiences - the modern person is unlikely to have had this experience, but may have had a similar experience).
Note that if you are thinking of an ancient as say a citizen of ancient Rome, that there is also huge differences between a person living in say Spain and one living in say Eritrea. An interesting thing is that about fifty years ago I read Livy's 'Hannibal' and I said to my dad how similar the bureaucracy of ancient Rome that he talks about and the modern bureaucracy I knew of at that time were to each other.
 
Back
Top Bottom