Marxists: "contradiction" as a synonym for "conflict"

[lpetrich]

I don't know where might be a good place to mention this, but I've noted that Marxists have a curious verbal tic.

Marxists often use "contradiction" as a synonym for "conflict", like where they talk about capitalism having "inner contradictions".

To Bertrand Russell, it meant using the word in ways that "no self-respecting logician can approve".

I must concede that it took me a while for me to find a simple summary of this odd usage. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[untermensche]

Meaningless distinction.

One can think of a contradiction as a conflict.

Both contain the idea of things in opposition.

 

[angelo]

According to Marxists and their mythical utopia, there's no such thing as conflict. Only contradictions.

 

[untermensche]

The mythical utopia is US capitalism with it's racism and shrinking middle class and movement towards third world status, and use of for-profit prison to solve the problems of limited opportunity.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The mythical utopia is US capitalism with it's racism and shrinking middle class and movement towards third world status, and use of for-profit prison to solve the problems of limited opportunity.

Agreed. It really sucks, except for all the other systems...

 

[lpetrich]

(Between a contradiction and a conflict)

Meaningless distinction.

One can think of a contradiction as a conflict.

Both contain the idea of things in opposition.

Yes, a contradiction is a kind of conflict. But there are plenty of conflicts that it would be unreasonable to call contradictions, and that's the problem.

 

[untermensche]

The mythical utopia is US capitalism with it's racism and shrinking middle class and movement towards third world status, and use of for-profit prison to solve the problems of limited opportunity.

Agreed. It really sucks, except for all the other systems...

You mean like European capitalism that is far more civilized?

Sure.

But how many systems has the US crushed since WWII?

Are you claiming that being crushed by the US proves you are an inferior system?

 

[fromderinside]

Well there we are. Now a contradiction, untermenche's, has lead to a confusion which might be seen as a conflict but not a contradiction. After all capitalism is only an incentive, read competition, based system based upon coin. Ideas are supposed to be the thing arbitrated, arrived at, by our republican system of government.

So for there to be a contradiction economy must differ from governing in form. I argue governing and economy in America are both based on competition, one for governing power and the other for material power.

This discrimination based on selective blinkering is below the level this conversation should be carried. For instance a former marxist state is, MHO, the most tribal nation among the elite nations of the world, far outdistancing another nation where race discrimination is acknowledged and processed.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

People also misuse the word paradox even though technically because it is misused so often it is a usage.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I don't know where might be a good place to mention this, but I've noted that Marxists have a curious verbal tic.

Marxists often use "contradiction" as a synonym for "conflict", like where they talk about capitalism having "inner contradictions".

To Bertrand Russell, it meant using the word in ways that "no self-respecting logician can approve".

I must concede that it took me a while for me to find a simple summary of this odd usage. Has anyone else noticed this?

from Googling definition of contradiction:

a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.
"the proposed new system suffers from a set of internal contradictions"
a person, thing, or situation in which inconsistent elements are present.
"the paradox of using force to overcome force is a real contradiction"
the statement of a position opposite to one already made.
"the second sentence appears to be in flat contradiction of the first"

It sounds like you are discussing the first usage which a logician would think ought to be defined a little more narrowly than that.

On the other hand, why don't we be more flexible than only applying the word contradiction to logic? So, for example, suppose I invent a car with 4 wheel drive and 4 wheels. The front two wheels turn such that the car tries to move forward. The back two tires turn in the opposite direction such the car would try to move backward.

Upon seeing such thing, someone states "Wow, what a contradictory thing" or "What a contradiction" or "That car has some internal contradictions."

Here's an example (maybe) of usage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_contradictions_of_capital_accumulation

To be open, I am not sure I understand the above and have only taken a cursory look at it. What would you say is the source of the contradiction? Is it that capital accumulation is like the car above?

Likewise, here is a different kind of example from a capitalist source which seems to have the usage you prefer but I don't think it's a good read or worth much in total:
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/02/noam_chomskys_internal_contradiction.html

Thoughts?

 

[fromderinside]

A couple of things in the first article. Rising tide lifting effects construct seems hidden, no economy ever permeates the entire market (global or regional), and population does tend upward regardless of where some economies are going.

In the second article it's an adversarial article about thoughts of Chomsky which is both a non sequitur and biased.

How can either of these tracts help us resolve contradiction is conflict thinking?

My view: contradiction is about state while conflict is about action. twain anyone?

 

[Bomb#20]

I think I can clear this up. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNkjDuSVXiE[/youtube]

 

[lpetrich]

As to where this odd use of "contradiction" comes from, it is the Hegel-Marx dialectic, of proceeding by thesis-antithesis-synthesis. One starts off with some idea, the thesis, derives its opposite from that idea, making the antithesis, and then combines the two, making the synthesis.

It was used by academic philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, someone who wrote some very ponderous tomes on metaphysics. He proposed that a partial truth leads to its opposite, and that the two combine to form a greater truth. This process is then repeated many times, until one comes up with the complete truth, which he called the Absolute Idea. What is it? According to one translator, "The Absolute Idea. The Idea, as unity of the Subjective and Objective Idea, is the notion of the Idea--a notion whose object (Gegenstand) is the Idea as such, and for which the objective (Objekt) is Idea--an Object which embraces all characteristics in its unity." Bertrand Russell interpreted it as "The Absolute Idea is pure thought thinking about pure thought."

He also wrote about humanity's recorded history, and he proposed that this dialectic applied there also, with nations acting it out as they fight each other. The Prussian state, his employer, was almost the Absolute Idea, even if not quite at that state.

Karl Marx took over this notion, and he applied it to social classes. He also believed that the main human motivator was not ideas but material conditions. Thus, dialectical materialism, complete with "contradiction" as a synonym for conflict.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The mythical utopia is US capitalism with it's racism and shrinking middle class and movement towards third world status, and use of for-profit prison to solve the problems of limited opportunity.

Agreed. It really sucks, except for all the other systems...

You mean like European capitalism that is far more civilized?

Sure.

But how many systems has the US crushed since WWII?

Are you claiming that being crushed by the US proves you are an inferior system?

I agree. I like the Euro model that offers a slight better safety net. And they pay more in taxes. But their system is very similar to the US system. When I say the best system, I equate the US, Canadian, Japan, South Korea, Australia, most Euro systems, and etc. You dramatically overstate the power of the US "destroying inferior systems"! I wish that we had more power! It appears that the mixed capitalist/dictatorship models that we find in China and Russia are flourishing.

 

[PyramidHead]

Contradiction is maybe not literally the right term, but something stronger than conflict is needed to describe the internal problems of capitalism. The perennial example is how a society can exist that simultaneously has a population of homeless people and a sizable quantity of empty homes. This is a conflict, yes, but it's of a different stripe, a conflict that not only represents two things that are in opposition to each other, but also things that normally shouldn't exist together in the first place without some justification. I like the stronger sense of contradiction as a way of highlighting that the things we often take for granted as realities of life are actually distortions we shouldn't be okay with.

 

[angelo]

The "problems" or contradictions of capitalism pale into insignificance when compared to the problems or contradictions of Marxism.

 

[PyramidHead]

The "problems" or contradictions of capitalism pale into insignificance when compared to the problems or contradictions of Marxism.

I bet you've read the covers of so many good books.

 

[Sarpedon]

Changing the meaning of words and developing a unique speech pattern is a common tactic among exclusive groups.

It allows for easier identification of members and exclusion of outsiders and their ideas. It may also introduce pliance in members, as they allow their speech patterns to be altered, they may also be weakening their independence of thought.

 

[Bronzeage]

Without putting too fine on a silly discussion, contradiction involves words, from the Latin "dictus" (dictate, dictionary, etc.) and conflict involves physical action, from the Latin " fligere" (affliction).

Not that it makes any difference.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I don't know where might be a good place to mention this, but I've noted that Marxists have a curious verbal tic.

It's not a verbal tic, it's a profound theoretical concept.

Marxists often use "contradiction" as a synonym for "conflict", like where they talk about capitalism having "inner contradictions".

No. Contradiction is not synonymous with conflict. A conflict is just the social expression of the contradiction of a system, but you may have a contradiction without having a conflict.

To Bertrand Russell, it meant using the word in ways that "no self-respecting logician can approve".

Well, he would know about that since he used the word "logic" itself in a way that "no self-respecting logician" should have ever approved. Yet, most of them certainly did. Shame on you.

And look here what the word contradiction actually means according to ordinary dictionaries:

contradiction
n
1. the act of going against; opposition; denial
2. a declaration of the opposite or contrary
3. a statement that is at variance with itself (often in the phrase a contradiction in terms)
4. conflict or inconsistency, as between events, qualities, etc
5. a person or thing containing conflicting qualities
6. (Logic) logic a statement that is false under all circumstances; necessary falsehood

See, the logical sense is only ranked 6th. And explicit notions of "conflict" come 4th and 5th. So, Marx 1 - Russell 0.

I must concede that it took me a while for me to find a simple summary of this odd usage. Has anyone else noticed this?

It's part of the Marxist theory of "dialectical materialism":

dialectical materialism
n.
The Marxian interpretation of reality that views matter as the sole subject of change and all change as the product of a constant conflict between opposites arising from the internal contradictions inherent in all events, ideas, and movements.

There, you know now it's not a "verbal tic".
EB