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Massive Fracking Plan Near Yellowstone National Park Threatens Wildlife, Air Quality, Climate

Yes but the probability of making a rational decision about it are less when one is dealing with faulty premises which is my point.
I don't have a belief in global warming, but I also can't honestly say that it isn't real either, yet I do take energy saving a lot more seriously than most anyway. I didn't have a car until I was 28 years old, and I only put on an average of about 4,000 miles a year for 10 years. Then I got rid of it, and hadn't had a car for another 14 years, until just February of this year. I also get by during the winter without heating and the summer without air conditioning.

While I think it's sad, that you "don't have a belief in global warming" and that you feel an emotional need to phrase it like it's a belief system, I think your personal history is irrelevant. Anecdotes aside, if you look at the population at large, persons who do not think there is a problem will tend to not do things to address it. This is the reason I brought up "probability" in my previous post.
 
Yes but the probability of making a rational decision about it are less when one is dealing with faulty premises which is my point.
I don't have a belief in global warming, but I also can't honestly say that it isn't real either, yet I do take energy saving a lot more seriously than most anyway. I didn't have a car until I was 28 years old, and I only put on an average of about 4,000 miles a year for 10 years. Then I got rid of it, and hadn't had a car for another 14 years, until just February of this year. I also get by during the winter without heating and the summer without air conditioning.

Do you "have a belief in" Gravity? Or in Organic Chemistry? Or Quantum Field Theory?

Why should your (or anyone's) beliefs about physical phenomena matter to anybody? Facts remain true whether people believe them or not.
 
No doubt it's unpopular, but it'd make a huge impact on the problem.

Sure, if it were implemented. But I don't see a practical way to implement it (in the US, Western Europe, etc.), given opposition. China, Russia and others aren't affected and will move forward with nuclear development, though.

You could have said the same thing a century ago about letting women vote (with just some unimportant changes in your choice of nations).

Public opinion is not set in stone. It can (and should) change.
 
...it's sad, that you "don't have a belief in global warming" and that you feel an emotional need to phrase it like it's a belief system

Beyond sad. It's even beyond stupid. It's just plain evil to try to substitute ignorance for facts.
 
Sure, if it were implemented. But I don't see a practical way to implement it (in the US, Western Europe, etc.), given opposition. China, Russia and others aren't affected and will move forward with nuclear development, though.

You could have said the same thing a century ago about letting women vote (with just some unimportant changes in your choice of nations).

Public opinion is not set in stone. It can (and should) change.
I'm not sure what your point is, but while there are places in which women vote would have been opposed even by most women, n others, that would not have been so, and it would have been opposition from other groups that would have stopped it. In any case, public opinion is not the only strong opposition that there might be. Other powerful groups - even if small minorities - can and often do make attempts to implement some policies very likely to fail. That applied to women vote, or for that matter, to any sort of public voting.

As for nuclear energy, I do think public opinion is in most of the West (at least) enough to block the replacement of most current energy sources with nuclear energy, and as I said, that's not likely to change any time soon. That does not imply that that's not likely to change ever. I make no claims about what will happen, say, a century from now. Those will be nearly always other people, who may well have very different opinions. Purely for example, success of nuclear energy replacing coal in China - which will very likely happen, sooner or later - may well convince future generations of Westerners that it's a good idea. What do I know?

Then again, it may well happen that before public opposition to nuclear becomes too weak to stop it in the West, solar+storage improves enough to actually work without gas and is widespread already, so building nuclear power stations when there already is a reasonably well functioning system based on solar+storage (or solar+wind+storage, in some places) might not be convenient, except perhaps in a few places. Nuclear energy will still be required for purposes such as space exploration.

As for whether public opinion should change, the passive voice is somewhat unclear, but if you're saying the people should change their minds, yes of course they should. Well, most of them should (some might not have access to enough information and might be opposing rationally, but that's a very small minority). But for that matter, public opinion should change on whether God exists, on whether Jesus walked on water or resurrected, or (changing the country) whether Muhammad was a good person, etc. I wasn't making a point about that. I was saying it wasn't likely to change (on nuclear energy) any time soon. And the same goes for said religious beliefs. This is not to say it will never change. It's just that it's not likely to do so any time soon.
 
I don't have a belief in global warming, but I also can't honestly say that it isn't real either, yet I do take energy saving a lot more seriously than most anyway. I didn't have a car until I was 28 years old, and I only put on an average of about 4,000 miles a year for 10 years. Then I got rid of it, and hadn't had a car for another 14 years, until just February of this year. I also get by during the winter without heating and the summer without air conditioning.
While I think it's sad, that you "don't have a belief in global warming"
What is actually sad, but not for me, is my posts constantly being misunderstood. First of all, I said that I don't have a belief in global warming, not that I don't believe in global warming.
and that you feel an emotional need to phrase it like it's a belief system,
It's not an emotional need, and of course it is a belief, since I was supposedly schooled over this very idea by a poster named spamandham on Jan 07, 2011 from the last incarnation of this site.
I think your personal history is irrelevant.
Of course my personal history is irrelevant, since that is obviously not what I brought up.
Anecdotes aside, if you look at the population at large, persons who do not think there is a problem will tend to not do things to address it.
Right, which is hardly anyone, except folks who don't care about money and/or themselves, again, barely anyone against it by "probability."
 
I don't have a belief in global warming, but I also can't honestly say that it isn't real either, yet I do take energy saving a lot more seriously than most anyway. I didn't have a car until I was 28 years old, and I only put on an average of about 4,000 miles a year for 10 years. Then I got rid of it, and hadn't had a car for another 14 years, until just February of this year. I also get by during the winter without heating and the summer without air conditioning.
Do you "have a belief in" Gravity? Or in Organic Chemistry? Or Quantum Field Theory?
Now that you bring those up, I don't have a belief in them either, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe in them.

Why should your (or anyone's) beliefs about physical phenomena matter to anybody?
That is for everyone to decide for themselves.
Facts remain true whether people believe them or not.
Oh, haven't you heard the latest gossip? See, facts are now just supposed to be merely interpretations.
 
Sure, if it were implemented. But I don't see a practical way to implement it (in the US, Western Europe, etc.), given opposition. China, Russia and others aren't affected and will move forward with nuclear development, though.
Public opinion is not set in stone. It can (and should) change.
Uh, it has been pretty obvious ever since we were children that public opinion continually changes.
 
...it's sad, that you "don't have a belief in global warming" and that you feel an emotional need to phrase it like it's a belief system

Beyond sad. It's even beyond stupid. It's just plain evil to try to substitute ignorance for facts.
I am not the one who made up that everything is a belief, and that facts are only interpretations.
 
Because when the sun goes behind a cloud what takes over has to be gas or hydro.


I'm sure some day we'll invent a technology that can store energy created by solar.

But that someday isn't today. There are no practical large-scale energy storage systems at present. There are a few small utility-scale storage systems but they are expensive, inefficient (you'll lose at least 20%) and are built to deliver a few minutes of power quickly while other generators are spun up.

The best battery technology still costs more for storage than the cost of the power. (I'm talking life cycle costs. If you had the choice between an ordinary generator and batteries that a genie would keep recharging for free you would be better off with the generator.)
 
Do you "have a belief in" Gravity? Or in Organic Chemistry? Or Quantum Field Theory?
Now that you bring those up, I don't have a belief in them either, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe in them.

Why should your (or anyone's) beliefs about physical phenomena matter to anybody?
That is for everyone to decide for themselves.
Facts remain true whether people believe them or not.
Oh, haven't you heard the latest gossip? See, facts are now just supposed to be merely interpretations.

That's just an interpretation, and is therefore self refuting.
 
Seems like sharon45 is agnostic on anthropocentric global warming, which is fine and not worthy of such a derail by others here.

I am highly (99.999999999999999999%) convinced that AGW is happening and will accelerate soon. This is based partly on my reading of websites like skepticalscience.com (skeptical of skeptics many who are shills) which has lots of theoretical and empirical backing.
 
While I think it's sad, that you "don't have a belief in global warming"
What is actually sad, but not for me, is my posts constantly being misunderstood. First of all, I said that I don't have a belief in global warming, not that I don't believe in global warming.
and that you feel an emotional need to phrase it like it's a belief system,
It's not an emotional need, and of course it is a belief, since I was supposedly schooled over this very idea by a poster named spamandham on Jan 07, 2011 from the last incarnation of this site.
I think your personal history is irrelevant.
Of course my personal history is irrelevant, since that is obviously not what I brought up.
Anecdotes aside, if you look at the population at large, persons who do not think there is a problem will tend to not do things to address it.
Right, which is hardly anyone, except folks who don't care about money and/or themselves, again, barely anyone against it by "probability."

I don't think someone can get away with saying they don't have a belief in X, but then imply they could believe in X. Do you think global warming is a thing or don't you? Regarding probability, there are many useful idiots who think global warming is a Chinese hoax. Just because some of them drive gass guzzling pickup trucks doesn't mean they don't generally care about money either.
 
I'm sure some day we'll invent a technology that can store energy created by solar.

But that someday isn't today. There are no practical large-scale energy storage systems at present.

Which is why the appropriate plan forward is to not go cold-turkey on fossil fuels, but to put reasonable limitations on their use and invest in the development of "practical large-scale energy storage systems" for the future. There's no doubt in my mind that if we put our minds to it and our money behind our minds we could solve this problem. But there are people in industry and government who would rather make short term gains at the expense of the long term and those people are gumming up the works.
 
But that someday isn't today. There are no practical large-scale energy storage systems at present.

Which is why the appropriate plan forward is to not go cold-turkey on fossil fuels, but to put reasonable limitations on their use and invest in the development of "practical large-scale energy storage systems" for the future. There's no doubt in my mind that if we put our minds to it and our money behind our minds we could solve this problem. But there are people in industry and government who would rather make short term gains at the expense of the long term and those people are gumming up the works.

Also why should "That day isn't today." mean that we need this new fracking plant now rather than potentially later?
 
...it's sad, that you "don't have a belief in global warming" and that you feel an emotional need to phrase it like it's a belief system

Beyond sad. It's even beyond stupid. It's just plain evil to try to substitute ignorance for facts.

It's funny to see science shaming going on in a thread which started out claiming we were going to destroy the world by fracking in an area where thousands of wells have been fracked in the past.
 
Which is why the appropriate plan forward is to not go cold-turkey on fossil fuels, but to put reasonable limitations on their use and invest in the development of "practical large-scale energy storage systems" for the future. There's no doubt in my mind that if we put our minds to it and our money behind our minds we could solve this problem. But there are people in industry and government who would rather make short term gains at the expense of the long term and those people are gumming up the works.

Also why should "That day isn't today." mean that we need this new fracking plant now rather than potentially later?

We need the fracking plant because we need the gas it produces. You can't cross your fingers and hope we get other answers in time. That would be akin to deciding not to wear your seat belt because you can always put it on if you're going to crash.
 
Also why should "That day isn't today." mean that we need this new fracking plant now rather than potentially later?

We need the fracking plant because we need the gas it produces. You can't cross your fingers and hope we get other answers in time. That would be akin to deciding not to wear your seat belt because you can always put it on if you're going to crash.

fracking plant?

Also, "SCIENCE!"
 
Also why should "That day isn't today." mean that we need this new fracking plant now rather than potentially later?

We need the fracking plant because we need the gas it produces. You can't cross your fingers and hope we get other answers in time. That would be akin to deciding not to wear your seat belt because you can always put it on if you're going to crash.

We don't actually need it. Not yet. There's still a tremendous amount of waste in the way we use energy. We could easily be much more frugal and leave those deposits in the ground until they are truly needed.

But fracking those gas fields would be profitable for the investors and provide a temporary boost to the local economy, so there's a lot of political pressure to make it happen.
 
We need the fracking plant because we need the gas it produces. You can't cross your fingers and hope we get other answers in time. That would be akin to deciding not to wear your seat belt because you can always put it on if you're going to crash.

We don't actually need it. Not yet. There's still a tremendous amount of waste in the way we use energy. We could easily be much more frugal and leave those deposits in the ground until they are truly needed.

But fracking those gas fields would be profitable for the investors and provide a temporary boost to the local economy, so there's a lot of political pressure to make it happen.

There is no 'need' for resources in the developed world; If someone wants it enough to pay for it, and can afford it, then it will probably happen.

There are a number of approaches that can reduce the want (eg showing people how to be more efficient; requiring more efficient versions of new things; asking people to change their way of living; providing the same result more cheaply by other means) or reducing their ability to afford it (pigouvian taxes to make the price more reflective of the actual cost including externalities; punitive taxes for things the government wants to avoid; subsidies for competing ways of achieving the same objectives; reductions in expensive regulations for competing ways to achieve the objective).

The energy markets already employ most of these to some degree; Personally, i would like to see a pigouvian tax on fossil fuels at source, to reflect the actual cost of the effects of climate change; plus a significant increase in allowable radiation exposure levels to come into line with current understanding of the risks of low levels of ionizing radiation (with an commensurate reduction in the costs of regulatory compliance for nuclear power operators); plus the removal of subsidies of all kinds for all energy producers; plus the elimination of deals that require the purchase of power from particular sources or providers regardless of the wholesale price.

Asking Joe Public to save power by changing his way of life is ultimately futile - if power is expensive enough to him, he will do it anyway, and if it is cheap enough that he feels no need to, then he should be allowed to make that call. If prices to the consumer are artificially low (eg because they don't include the cost of climate change, or of grid stability services, or because some sources enjoy subsidies), then the best option is to increase prices to their 'correct' level by ensuring that all costs ARE included, and subsidies eliminated - at which point alternative options should automatically be adopted.

If the government wants to protect the poor from high prices, then subsidies to the energy industry (or to parts thereof) is a dumb way to do that - instead they should target the same money to the consumers that they wish to protect, ideally as a cash payment which can then be spent in the most effective way by each individual poor person.
 
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