Men's Rights Movement(s)

[ruby sparks]

Ok so...a thread where interested parties can post about MR issues, the pros and cons of MRA's etc etc.

Bias declared: I am slightly suspicious about MRAs when it comes to what they actually say and do as opposed to what definitions they may use (definitions are...well....definitions, on paper). I feel that there may be too many of them who are too one-sided and too anti-feminist for my liking (and I say that as a non-feminist and someone who has reservations about feminism). At the same time, I am very much in favour of addressing men's issues and accept that there are moderate MRAs too.

This thread is not meant to compete with any of the threads on the general topic of gender issues. In fact, it might be the better place to talk about men's issues (without necessarily meaning that the issues could not also be brought up in less specific threads).

Ok, who's up first?

 

[Underseer]

The Nazis claimed that they were being "persecuted" by Jews even as they loaded Jews into concentration camps.

White South Africans insisted that they were being "persecuted" by black South Africans during Apartheid.

Muslims in Muslim-majority countries insist that they are being "persecuted" by religious minorities in those countries.

Christians claim that they are being "persecuted" by women and homosexuals.

This is nothing new. If you are persecuting a disempowered group, just accuse them of what you are doing, and you can look at your own face in the mirror without so much as a twinge of guilt or shame.

In the case of MRAs, they really believe that men are inherently inferior and if we are forced to compete on a level playing field, we will lose.

 

[ruby sparks]

I was hoping the thread might start with something a tad less controversial, but thank you for posting.

 

[bilby]

Underseer is prone to hyperbole, but in this case he's right. MRAs are arseholes who don't have the balls to be openly arseholeish.

Men have rights, and sometimes those rights are infringed. But we need MRAs like we need a collective hole in our heads.

If my rights are infringed, I would rather the morons and fuckwits were not trying to "help" by claiming me for their team.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Well look at how Harvey Weinstein is discriminated against. Word has it he went to a Ladies' night at a bar and couldn't get drinks half off or anyone to dance with him. So he hung out with a plant all night and tried to give it roofies. I won't go into what happened next, but we've all been there. AmI Right?

 

[James Brown]

Every once in a while, I'll hear someone say, "I'm a woman and I'm against women's rights--I'm for human rights." The idea being that men and women should, if treated equally, should all have the same rights.

Could not the same be said about men's rights?

 

[PyramidHead]

Every once in a while, I'll hear someone say, "I'm a woman and I'm against women's rights--I'm for human rights." The idea being that men and women should, if treated equally, should all have the same rights.

Could not the same be said about men's rights?

That reads like "all lives matter" to me. When the house on the corner is on fire, you put out that fire, you don't waste time making sure everybody is aware that all houses are equally valuable. And you don't get in the way of people trying to put it out by demanding they do the same.

For anyone interested in men's rights from the most objective perspective I have encountered, I recommend David Benatar's book The Second Sexism. Many liberals hate it without reading it, and if they actually took the time, they'd see that a lot of problems disproportionately endured by men (suicide, debilitating injury, military deaths, capital punishment) are often consequences of the same patriarchal mindset that harms women in society. I don't agree with the whole book, but it was an eye-opener, as Benatar's books usually are.

 

[ruby sparks]

Every once in a while, I'll hear someone say, "I'm a woman and I'm against women's rights--I'm for human rights." The idea being that men and women should, if treated equally, should all have the same rights.

Could not the same be said about men's rights?

That reads like "all lives matter" to me. When the house on the corner is on fire, you put out that fire, you don't waste time making sure everybody is aware that all houses are equally valuable. And you don't get in the way of people trying to put it out by demanding they do the same.

For anyone interested in men's rights from the most objective perspective I have encountered, I recommend David Benatar's book The Second Sexism. Many liberals hate it without reading it, and if they actually took the time, they'd see that a lot of problems disproportionately endured by men (suicide, debilitating injury, military deaths, capital punishment) are often consequences of the same patriarchal mindset that harms women in society. I don't agree with the whole book, but it was an eye-opener, as Benatar's books usually are.

Thx. I have just browsed some of his stuff on Google and some reviews and articles. Very annoyingly, I find myself enthusiastically agreeing one moment and the opposite the next! Lol.

Without wishing to get into it now, or here, my general view is that patriarchal systems are overplayed as explanations, though I still agree that they are a very relevant consideration.

The apparently intractable thing about arguments involving it (patriarchy) is that imo the arguments are basically philosophy of the Continental variety (ok that may be too much of a generalisation and might depend on definitions of what C philosophy is or isn't) and therefore more open to subjectivity, opinion, ideology and at worst, dogma, more so than empirical analysis.

 

[bilby]

Every once in a while, I'll hear someone say, "I'm a woman and I'm against women's rights--I'm for human rights." The idea being that men and women should, if treated equally, should all have the same rights.

Could not the same be said about men's rights?

That reads like "all lives matter" to me. When the house on the corner is on fire, you put out that fire, you don't waste time making sure everybody is aware that all houses are equally valuable. And you don't get in the way of people trying to put it out by demanding they do the same.

For anyone interested in men's rights from the most objective perspective I have encountered, I recommend David Benatar's book The Second Sexism. Many liberals hate it without reading it, and if they actually took the time, they'd see that a lot of problems disproportionately endured by men (suicide, debilitating injury, military deaths, capital punishment) are often consequences of the same patriarchal mindset that harms women in society. I don't agree with the whole book, but it was an eye-opener, as Benatar's books usually are.

Thx. I have just browsed some of his stuff on Google and some reviews and articles. Very annoyingly, I find myself enthusiastically agreeing one moment and the opposite the next! Lol.

Without wishing to get into it now, or here, my general view is that patriarchal systems are overplayed as explanations, though I still agree that they are a very relevant consideration.

The apparently intractable thing about arguments involving it (patriarchy) is that imo the arguments are basically philosophy of the Continental variety (ok that may be too much of a generalisation and might depend on definitions of what C philosophy is or isn't) and therefore more open to subjectivity, opinion, ideology and at worst, dogma, than empirical analysis.

Well, as Benatar pointed out, "Love is a Battlefield".

 

[Hermit]

Ok so...a thread where interested parties can post about MR issues, the pros and cons of MRA's etc etc.

There are huge disadvantages in being male. They can be summarised by observing those disadvantages resulting in the life expectancy of males being about ten years shorter than that of females. Some prime reasons are that they insist on monopolising the tasks of being soldiers and other dangerous occupations. Also their unfortunate tendency of bottling up emotionally to the point of committing suicide.

Unfortunately, MRAs keep barking up the wrong tree about these things. If we want to play the blame game it's not women's fault. It's a classic case of bed made, and that's how we lie in it. MRAs are not mens' rights activists. They are misogynistic arseholes. They remind me of white supremacists purporting to defend the right of freedom of speech. Fuck off, the lot of you.

 

[ruby sparks]

Well, as Benatar pointed out, "Love is a Battlefield".

Indeed. And as someone else (forget who) said, 'the battle will never be won. There is too much fraternising with the enemy'.

- - - Updated - - -

There are huge disadvantages in being male. They can be summarised by observing those disadvantages resulting in the life expectancy of males being about ten years shorter than that of females. Some prime reasons are that they insist on monopolising the tasks of being soldiers and other dangerous occupations. Also their unfortunate tendency of bottling up emotionally to the point of committing suicide.

Unfortunately, MRAs keep barking up the wrong tree about these things. If we want to play the blame game it's not women's fault. It's a classic case of bed made, and that's how we lie in it. MRAs are not mens' rights activists. They are misogynistic arseholes. They remind me of white supremacists purporting to defend the right of freedom of speech. Fuck off, the lot of you.

Yes. I suppose I started this thread in order to hear more about the 'reasonable, non arsehole' side of MR (or even MI as in men's issues, since we are agreed that 'rights' do not necessarily make issues go away).

 

[Hermit]

I started this thread in order to hear more about the 'reasonable, non arsehole' side of MR

You asked to hear about "the pros and cons of MRA's (sic)". I argue there are none of the former as far as MRAs are concerned. They are all misogynists disguised as men's rights activists.

 

[Underseer]

I was hoping the thread might start with something a tad less controversial, but thank you for posting.

Aw, I apologize for triggering you. You're the biggest and the best. Men have it so rough. Some day, we will tell our grandchildren of all the oppression that we endured, and their little eyes will well up with tears of admiration.

Those women should be more thankful that we deign to fondle them without so much as a how-do-you-do.

 

[ruby sparks]

They are all misogynists disguised as men's rights activists.

Oooh. Sharp intake of breath. That's arguably the most controversial and damning claim yet.

 

[Malintent]

Every once in a while, I'll hear someone say, "I'm a woman and I'm against women's rights--I'm for human rights." The idea being that men and women should, if treated equally, should all have the same rights.

Could not the same be said about men's rights?

All genitals matter!

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ok so...a thread where interested parties can post about MR issues, the pros and cons of MRA's etc etc.

There are huge disadvantages in being male. They can be summarised by observing those disadvantages resulting in the life expectancy of males being about ten years shorter than that of females. Some prime reasons are that they insist on monopolising the tasks of being soldiers and other dangerous occupations. Also their unfortunate tendency of bottling up emotionally to the point of committing suicide.

Unfortunately, MRAs keep barking up the wrong tree about these things. If we want to play the blame game it's not women's fault. It's a classic case of bed made, and that's how we lie in it. MRAs are not mens' rights activists. They are misogynistic arseholes. They remind me of white supremacists purporting to defend the right of freedom of speech. Fuck off, the lot of you.

While it's probably true that there are zero members of any MRA group who aren't misogynistic assholes, that doesn't mean that they haven't inadvertently stumbled upon some real issues through no fault of their own. Even if those issues are fairly trivial in the broader scope of things, people should always feel free to get worked up and passionate about whatever trivial and generally unimportant issues happen to tickle their fancy, as any thread about circumcision or Star Trek will show you.

For instance, to bring up one scenario which is talked about a lot, if two drunk college students hook up and the guy gets expelled for violating the school's policy against having sex with a drunk person and the girl doesn't, that's an actual issue and efforts to reduce sexual assault on campus don't need to include that scenario.

 

[Malintent]

Every once in a while, I'll hear someone say, "I'm a woman and I'm against women's rights--I'm for human rights." The idea being that men and women should, if treated equally, should all have the same rights.

Could not the same be said about men's rights?

...That reads like "all lives matter" to me....

Just missed it....

 

[Malintent]

Men need a movement!
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6IhNcnLwiw[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So, Ruby, if you sense a bias against men who talk about their problems that is because you are a misogynist. If you were an abused man would you speak up about it or would you grow a pair?

Shut the fuck up because men caused all the problems, you are a man, you should never blame women for anything, and MRAs are misogynists who live in their mother's basements and harass femininists.

You are a father screwed out of child custody? As Paul Elam himself says, that's not usually because of a feminist judge. That's just society men built to see women as caregivers, so you have no right to complain.

You belong to the dominant group identity that made everything as it is, and by having the same gender as those who made the problems, you have no right to complain about it, regardless of what you are going through. You are a woman hater if you disagree.

Also, another group, women, have far more issues affecting far more people than your group, men have affecting them. It doesn't matter what you as an individual are going through. You belong to the dominant group so cry me a river then shut the fuck up. All lives don't matter. And we will pull the fire alarm if you try to discuss your problems with anyone foolish enough to listen.

 

[ruby sparks]

While it's probably true that there are zero members of any MRA group who aren't misogynistic assholes...

Despite not being impressed much at all by what I've come across about and from MRAs (I admit I do not search it out) I would still be shocked if that were true.

..that doesn't mean that they haven't inadvertently stumbled upon some real issues through no fault of their own. Even if those issues are fairly trivial in the broader scope of things, people should always feel free to get worked up and passionate about whatever trivial and generally unimportant issues happen to tickle their fancy, as any thread about circumcision or Star Trek will show you.

Tom, I wonder if you're being typically male and trivialising serious issues. You know us guys. We find it hard to admit our problems and ask for help (and are discouraged about doing it too).

No but seriously, I am not ready to accept that mens issues are trivial. No. There are a lot of non-trivial ones.

What I do think is that if you take a typical man and a typical woman (temporarily dividing the issue in two and realising that there are a variety of orientations and genders) and all other things apart from their gender are equal (money, education, health, race.....etc) that the typical woman is worse off.

But that still leaves a huge amount of room for men's issues, very serious ones, I think.