Michael Brown Shooting and Aftermath

[Rhea]

A source with knowledge of Wilson’s statements said the officer had told investigators that Brown had struggled for Wilson’s pistol inside a police SUV and that Wilson had fired the gun twice, hitting Brown once in the hand. Later, Wilson fired additional shots that killed Brown and ignited a national controversy.

The St. Louis medical examiner, Dr. Michael Graham, who is not part of the official investigation, reviewed the autopsy report for the newspaper. He said Tuesday that it “does support that there was a significant altercation at the car.”
Graham said the examination indicated a shot traveled from the tip of Brown’s right thumb toward his wrist. The official report notes an absence of stippling, powder burns around a wound that indicate a shot fired at relatively short range.
[..]
Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said the autopsy “supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound.” She added, “If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he’s going for the officer’s gun.”
[..]

So which is it? Is there an ABSENCE of gunpowder as the autopsy says? Or a presence of it as a pathologist half a continent away says?

 

[Derec]

Pure speculation that Brown was reaching for the gun, as opposed to (for instance) holding his hand out in a "don't shoot" sort of motion.

Not really consistent with a graze wound to the thumb. That suggests the thumb was parallel to the barrel, not perpendicular to it. Read the autopsy report. It's wound #11.

And in any case, a shot to his hand isn't what killed him.

It started the series of events that did. If he really attacked Wilson (as seems very likely) and went for his gun then Wilson had a valid reason to fear further attack if Brown moved toward him even if he was injured.
We have two stories here. Both are by people with vested interests (for Wilson self interest, and Johnson was Brown's friend) but one was a decorated police officer and the other a teenage delinquent with history of trouble with the police. 1:0 for Wilson.
Also, whose story is inherently more probable? That a perp who just robbed a convenience store would assault a police officer or that the police officer would pull a civilian into the SUV and then shoot him for no good reason? I think the former is inherently more believable. 2:0 for Wilson.

A shot to his head did - after he had run approximately 25 feet away and put his hands up in surrender.

An outside medical examiner who read the autopsy report said that the trajectory of the gunshot wounds is not consistent with him raising his hands in surrender. Also, an assailant can cover 25 feet in rather short time. And if he was moving toward the police officer it's still a threatening action no matter what he did with his hands.

I love how the very same people argue that Michael Brown was so fucking threatening to a supposedly trained police officer that said police officer was justified in killing him from 25 feet away, but Marissa Alexander could not have possibly in any way felt threatened by Rico Gray at a much closer range. The hypocrisy is breath-taking.

It was his house for one. He didn't just rob a store and she wasn't a police officer. Very different situations that need to be evaluated individually.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't get the hand near the gun thing. He could put his hands out in front of him if the gun was pointing towards him, in a defensive maneuver, and he wouldn't be going for the gun.

This also begs the question, why he would go for a holstered gun in the first place. He'd have to be insane to try such a maneuver.

 

[Derec]

So which is it? Is there an ABSENCE of gunpowder as the autopsy says? Or a presence of it as a pathologist half a continent away says?

I am not an ME/pathologist nor do I play one on TV but the way I understand it is that there is a difference between stippling (a particular burn pattern around the entry wound) and presence of gunpowder in the wound itself.
That means that it is possible to have no stippling and still have gunpowder deposited for very close range shots.
The part you very conveniently decided to omit from your quotation:

But Graham said, “Sometimes when it’s really close, such as within an inch or so, there is no stipple, just smoke.”
The report on a supplemental microscopic exam of tissue from the thumb wound showed foreign matter “consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm.”

 

[Nice Squirrel]

A source with knowledge of Wilson’s statements said the officer had told investigators that Brown had struggled for Wilson’s pistol inside a police SUV and that Wilson had fired the gun twice, hitting Brown once in the hand. Later, Wilson fired additional shots that killed Brown and ignited a national controversy.

The St. Louis medical examiner, Dr. Michael Graham, who is not part of the official investigation, reviewed the autopsy report for the newspaper. He said Tuesday that it “does support that there was a significant altercation at the car.”
Graham said the examination indicated a shot traveled from the tip of Brown’s right thumb toward his wrist. The official report notes an absence of stippling, powder burns around a wound that indicate a shot fired at relatively short range.
[..]
Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said the autopsy “supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound.” She added, “If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he’s going for the officer’s gun.”
[..]

So which is it? Is there an ABSENCE of gunpowder as the autopsy says? Or a presence of it as a pathologist half a continent away says?

The latter. Because he is not a Gentle Giant®.

 

[Derec]

I don't get the hand near the gun thing. He could put his hands out in front of him if the gun was pointing towards him, in a defensive maneuver, and he wouldn't be going for the gun.

Read the description of the hand wound in the autopsy report. It's wound #11. It's a graze wound to the thumb which suggests the thumb was roughly parallel to the barrel, which is consistent with him reaching for it, not with holding the hands up in a "don't shoot" manner.
And again, what is more likely? That a guy who just knocked off a store would attack a police officer who stopped him or that a police officer would pull a jaywalker into his car and shoot him for no reason at all?

This also begs the question,

Begging the question? Quite an admission!

why he would go for a holstered gun in the first place.

Trying to avoid jail time for the robbery he just committed would be my guess.

He'd have to be insane to try such a maneuver.

He just risked his freedom over a box of Swisher Sweets. I do not think we are dealing with too smart an individual here.

 

[ksen]

I also agree that we are not dealing with too smart individual here.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Read the description of the hand wound in the autopsy report. It's wound #11. It's a graze wound to the thumb which suggests the thumb was roughly parallel to the barrel, which is consistent with him reaching for it, not with holding the hands up in a "don't shoot" manner.
And again, what is more likely? That a guy who just knocked off a store would attack a police officer who stopped him or that a police officer would pull a jaywalker into his car and shoot him for no reason at all?

It was an unarmed petty theft. He didn't just take out a bank.

This also begs the question,

Begging the question? Quite an admission!

Man, are you going to start acting like an adult at any point here?

why he would go for a holstered gun in the first place.

Trying to avoid jail time for the robbery he just committed would be my guess.

And that actually clicks in your mind as a reasonable thought? He is trying to avoid jail time over a petty theft by murdering a cop?!

He'd have to be insane to try such a maneuver.

He just risked his freedom over a box of Swisher Sweets. I do not think we are dealing with too smart an individual here.

You have no sense of perspective, do you? Stealing cigars verses murdering a cop. These two crimes aren't exactly adjacent on the crime chart.

 

[Derec]

It was an unarmed petty theft. He didn't just take out a bank.

It wasn't petty theft, it was second degree robbery, a felony.

Robbery in the second degree.
569.030. 1. A person commits the crime of robbery in the second degree when he forcibly steals property.
2. Robbery in the second degree is a class B felony.

Pushing the clerk qualifies. Note that there is no mention of a dollar amount threshold here.

Man, are you going to start acting like an adult at any point here?

Words have meanings.

And that actually clicks in your mind as a reasonable thought?

Not reasonable, but possible. Criminals attack police all the time when cornered. Also Brown was likely high given THC found in his system.

He is trying to avoid jail time over a petty theft by murdering a cop?!

2nd degree robbery, not petty theft.

You have no sense of perspective, do you? Stealing cigars verses murdering a cop. These two crimes aren't exactly adjacent on the crime chart.

Not exactly adjacent but orders of magnitude closer than a decorated cop deciding to murder a civilian for no reason.

 

[Rhea]

I am not an ME/pathologist nor do I play one on TV but the way I understand it is that there is a difference between stippling (a particular burn pattern around the entry wound) and presence of gunpowder in the wound itself.
That means that it is possible to have no stippling and still have gunpowder deposited for very close range shots.
The part you very conveniently decided to omit from your quotation:

But Graham said, “Sometimes when it’s really close, such as within an inch or so, there is no stipple, just smoke.”
The report on a supplemental microscopic exam of tissue from the thumb wound showed foreign matter “consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm.”

LOL, it was CONVENIENT because you didn't put it in your post and I quoted your post, so I never saw that line. But thanks for the accusation of bias.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

This doesnt help the officer's case.

if anything, if suggests that at the time the fatal shots were fired, the officer was in a heightened state of anxiety and not behaving in a professional or rational manner. IOW, when the officer unloaded his gun into Brown, one could argue he was enraged with an intent not to control the situation but to kill Michael Brown

Brown does attempt to leave the scene, does attempt to surrender, thus dropping the level of danger for the officer. At a point when he was not in danger, he still unloaded multiple shots into an unarmed Michael Brown.

in case you missed it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It wasn't petty theft, it was second degree robbery, a felony.

Robbery in the second degree.
569.030. 1. A person commits the crime of robbery in the second degree when he forcibly steals property.
2. Robbery in the second degree is a class B felony.

Pushing the clerk qualifies. Note that there is no mention of a dollar amount threshold here.

Forcibly most likely is more than just giving a shove. Seriously, do you hate some people so much that you just pull out the hyperbole bullshinator and crank it up to 11?

Man, are you going to start acting like an adult at any point here?

Words have meanings.

And context.

And that actually clicks in your mind as a reasonable thought?

Not reasonable, but possible. Criminals attack police all the time when cornered. Also Brown was likely high given THC found in his system.

Cornered... on pot... He wasn't cornered and had traces of a depressant in his system. Was he suffering from Reefer Madness?

He is trying to avoid jail time over a petty theft by murdering a cop?!

2nd degree robbery, not petty theft.

You made up the 2nd degree charge being applicable to him.

You have no sense of perspective, do you? Stealing cigars verses murdering a cop. These two crimes aren't exactly adjacent on the crime chart.

Not exactly adjacent but orders of magnitude closer than a decorated cop deciding to murder a civilian for no reason.

"Orders of magnitude closer"? What type of BS claim is that? Neither seem likely. The cop is holding out details that would likely muddle the confrontation.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

When the fatal shots were fired, where was Michael Brown and what was he doing? Was Officer Wilson in danger when he fired the fatal shots?

 

[Sabine Grant]

By Athena :Brown does attempt to leave the scene, does attempt to surrender, thus dropping the level of danger for the officer. At a point when he was not in danger, he still unloaded multiple shots into an unarmed Michael Brown.

in case you missed it.

What you described Athena should be the central argument supporting the invalidation of a claim of self defense on Officer Wilson's part. I am not sure why the attention polarizes on whichever incident occurred in the vehicle if and when indeed Michael Brown was attempting to surrender at the time he was fatally shot by Officer Wilson.

Therefor, the crucial importance of visual witnesses to the shooting itself while Michael Brown was NOT in any physical contact with Officer Wilson. So far, one witness and again not related to the Ferguson community , a witness who cannot be accused of racial bias (considering he is not of Black ethnicity), the contractor whose spontaneous reaction to the shooting was captured on video (I documented it earlier in this thread). Clearly from what he exclaimed and spontaneously, he questions why Brown was shot while he had his hands up.

 

[ksen]

When the fatal shots were fired, where was Michael Brown and what was he doing? Was Officer Wilson in danger when he fired the fatal shots?

stop your obfuscating, missy!!!

 

[Derec]

Forcibly most likely is more than just giving a shove.

No, forcibly means forcibly.

Seriously, do you hate some people so much that you just pull out the hyperbole bullshinator and crank it up to 11?

How is that hyperbole? Brown forcibly stole property. Therefore, that is 2nd degree robbery, not petty theft.

Cornered... on pot... He wasn't cornered and had traces of a depressant in his system.

Being high can affect one's reasoning abilities. And he was stopped by the police after committing a crime. Criminals attack police in just such a situation all the time, so I don't see why it's so hard for you to accept tha possibility. Is it because you still harbor delusions of Brown being a "gentle giant"?

Was he suffering from Reefer Madness?

Now who is engaging in hyperbole?

You made up the 2nd degree charge being applicable to him.

No, even the police were talking of "strongarm robbery", not "petty theft", with reference to the convenience store incident. Strongarm means that no weapon was used.

"Orders of magnitude closer"? What type of BS claim is that?

A criminal attacking a police officer to avoid capture is much more believable than a decorated police officer murdering a jaywalker for no reason.

Neither seem likely.

And yet one of these two scenarios happened. So we have to ask ourselves, which is more likely?

The cop is holding out details that would likely muddle the confrontation.

That's your opinion.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No, forcibly means forcibly.

You do recall that whole "words have meaning quip of yours?

Seriously, do you hate some people so much that you just pull out the hyperbole bullshinator and crank it up to 11?

How is that hyperbole? Brown forcibly stole property. Therefore, that is 2nd degree robbery, not petty theft.

Feel free to cite a lawyer or officer that claims as such.

Cornered... on pot... He wasn't cornered and had traces of a depressant in his system.

Being high can affect one's reasoning abilities. And he was stopped by the police after committing a crime. Criminals attack police in just such a situation all the time, so I don't see why it's so hard for you to accept tha possibility. Is it because you still harbor delusions of Brown being a "gentle giant"?

He didn't attack the officer, it is being claimed that he tried to kill the officer.

Was he suffering from Reefer Madness?

Now who is engaging in hyperbole?

No... I'd be pointing out your claim with regards to THC being in his system and what you were claiming it would result in.

You made up the 2nd degree charge being applicable to him.

No, even the police were talking of "strongarm robbery", not "petty theft", with reference to the convenience store incident. Strongarm means that no weapon was used.

So they didn't use the term "second degree robbery"?

"Orders of magnitude closer"? What type of BS claim is that?

A criminal attacking a police officer to avoid capture is much more believable than a decorated police officer murdering a jaywalker for no reason.

This is the Trayvon Martin thing all over again. A criminal when confronted chooses to:
A: Run like hell and evade capture
B: For some reason try to attack officer

A makes a lot more sense than B.

Neither seem likely.

And yet one of these two scenarios happened. So we have to ask ourselves, which is more likely?

False dichotomy. Details from the officer are missing.

The cop is holding out details that would likely muddle the confrontation.

That's your opinion.

A reasonable one.

 

[ksen]

Has he even filed a police report yet?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Has he even filed a police report yet?

He had to heal from his devastating orbital bone fracture that didn't happen. Granted, there is no evidence to suggest he leaked that. I would be interested to know who did.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Pure speculation that Brown was reaching for the gun, as opposed to (for instance) holding his hand out in a "don't shoot" sort of motion. And in any case, a shot to his hand isn't what killed him.

A shot to his head did - after he had run approximately 25 feet away and put his hands up in surrender.

I love how the very same people argue that Michael Brown was so fucking threatening to a supposedly trained police officer that said police officer was justified in killing him from 25 feet away, but Marissa Alexander could not have possibly in any way felt threatened by Rico Gray at a much closer range. The hypocrisy is breath-taking.

Anything to pretend he was an innocent victim.

Lets examine your scenario: Hold your hands out to me in a don't-shoot gesture. Is your thumb pointing at me???? Did the cop have magic curving bullets that could hit from a direction other than where the gun was????

And the issue with the powder is the nature of the initial altercation, not the final shooting.