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Michael Brown Shooting and Aftermath

He must have extremely long arms then because otherwise, if his head is outside the car, I don't see how it would be physically possible for Mike Brown to have been reaching for the police officer's holstered gun as people are claiming he was.
It was an SUV and seat (and thus officer's butt and holster) would be higher than in a regular car.
And Brown was a big guy and arm span correlates with height. Of course, if we go into his "ape index" we would merely inflame PC nuts like with "niggardly", "tar baby" or "master/slave" disks and cylinders. :)
 
He must have extremely long arms then because otherwise, if his head is outside the car, I don't see how it would be physically possible for Mike Brown to have been reaching for the police officer's holstered gun as people are claiming he was.
It was an SUV and seat (and thus officer's butt and holster) would be higher than in a regular car.
And Brown was a big guy and arm span correlates with height. Of course, if we go into his "ape index" we would merely inflame PC nuts like with "niggardly", "tar baby" or "master/slave" disks and cylinders. :)
But we don't know his arm span at this time. Many men have "tryannosaur" arms like myself and must get my suits tailored because of it.
 
You cited code, you didn't cite someone saying that was the understood interpretation of "forcibly".
This is getting ridiculous. Definition of any kind of robbery includes use of force - that distinguishes it from theft. So when the police used the words "strongarm robbery" that means that he forcibly stole property without a weapon. And lo and behold, that is precisely what the store video shows. What are the chances? :banghead: :rolleyes:

Trying to kill someone crosses this above another threshold. IE, why would Brown try to kill a cop instead of run away... over a box of cigars?
Why would Wilson pull Brown into the SUV and shoot him ... over jaywalking? That scenario is much more ridiculous and far-fetched than the other alternative.

So he was tripping then? And he thought that a large hamburger told them to stop jaywalking, so he went for the burger's gun because burgers shouldn't have them? If he was tripping like that, would he even know that he stole anything?
What he was thinking is far less important than how he was acting.

No. "Second degree robbery" is a specific charge.
As defined in the code. I quoted that specific section of the code because what Brown did at the store fits that description.

You seem to have issues between when subjective and objective terminology and judgement is appropriate.
Huh? Are you denying that what Brown did fulfills the definition of 2nd degree robbery or are you merely saying that we can't use specific crimes as described in the criminal code until a prosecutor decides to charge somebody? Both claims would be wrong by the way.

You are just claiming that still. So where is the citation? You aren't a lawyer.
Read the Missouri code. There are two degrees of robbery. When police talks of strongarm robbery they mean one of them, not petty theft.
It doesn't take a law degree to understand that.

He got caught doing something wrong, and instead of simply fleeing... he confronts and tries to kill. The narrative is the same.
He probably just tried to give Z "whoop ass" but Z was still within his rights to defend himself.

And that misunderstanding of yours is why you committed a false dichotomy fallacy.

If you think so then you will no doubt have no trouble elucidating the third (or more) viable option.
So either Brown attacked Wilson and tried to grab his gun (grazed thumb roughly parallel to the barrel at the time of shooting) because he wanted to avoid going to jail for the robbery.
Or Wilson pulled Brown into the vehicle and shot him just because he was jaywalking or because Wilson was a racist or some other far-fetched reason.
Or .... ?
I am very interested in what scenario(s) you come up with.
 
But we don't know his arm span at this time. Many men have "tryannosaur" arms like myself and must get my suits tailored because of it.
I did mention the unknown "ape index" but the fact still remains that taller people tend to have longer arm span as well.
 
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Not sure it is the case in Missouri but in Florida, State Attorneys who are our prosecutors can choose to either press charges themselves by bypassing a Grand Jury or leave it to a Grand Jury to decide whether charges should be pressed. I recall having read an article in the Tampa Tribune a few years ago which discussed the SA's choice being based on weak versus strong potential to win the case. IOW, their choice is based on self interest regarding their career. Because the damage done to their reputation if they cannot convince the Grand Jury to press charges is much lower than if they do not obtain a conviction during a trial. It is widely acknowledged that a prosecutor who has a low rate of convictions from trials is not going to have a successful career especially when they are elected.

Voters tend to favor re electing their SAs based on their conviction rates.

Angela Corey was criticized for not going to the grand jury on the rather weak Trayvon case.
Source?

She presumably did it to appease activists because a "no bill" would have inflamed passions.
Actually, her decision to bypass the Grand Jury was because she was appointed as special prosecutor to the case by Governor Scott supported by GA Pam Bondi, after SA Wolfinger (SA for Seminole County)stepped down from the case. The pressure was placed on her as directly appointed to the case (Special Prosecutor) by the highest State authority to go to the jugular from the get go. She inherited of a "hot potato" case the previous SA dropped. Further, you seem to forget that she filed her affidavit which was to demonstrate to a Judge there was sufficient probable cause to press charges. Judge Mark Herr, Seminole County, found her affidavit to support probable cause to be sufficient. You seem to not be aware of which judiciary branch process takes place for an SA in Florida to obtain validation of charges based on proving probable cause.



Further Florida residents who are actually familiar with Corey's record as a SA would know that she is the last person to be concerned about "appeasing activists". The most controversial case she prosecuted being about a 12 year old boy whom she tried as an adult rather than juvenile. She did not back down no matter how many Floridians were actively opposing her choice.(you are probably not aware of all the petitions circulating in Florida, but I am) Corey was already notorious for her tough cookie personality escorted by a high dose of arrogance. She defended her choice to charge 12 year old Fernandez with 1st Degree Murder by claiming that his case could not be dealt with appropriately in juvenile court.

Surely the nation could have saved itself a lot of drama (and Florida a lot of dollars) had that case been nipped in the bud.
Your remark indicates that you are liberally assuming that a Grand Jury would have returned a no charge conclusion. As if it were a fact that they would have. You still seem to confuse your assumptions and speculations as meaning a fact. Especially as Corey's affidavit was validated by a Judge concluding there was sufficient evidence for probable cause.
 
Your gratuitous remarks about not knowing would be stronger if you didn't use the opportunity to include pro Wilson arguments. Physician, heal thyself.

Understand something: grand juries are not trials. The prosecutor shows whatever he wishes and there are no advocates for anyone else. The dead man and his family have no advocates there. The prosecutor could've charged Wilson out of hand, with no proceeding. He could've called a hearing and let a judge decide. He could've recused himself, since prosecutors always work closely with the police. But he chose the route where he has the most influence and the least transparency. From that, coupled with the leaks, my guess is that the prosecutor has no intention of charging Wilson, no matter what the facts of the case are. It's a political decision.

I'm just pointing out the other side of the story. The idea this is a slam dunk is silly. By the way, the prosecutor is the victim's advocate. The idea the prosecutor is automatically on the cops side is also an argument without proof or merit. Once the GJ decides not to prosecute, all information becomes public and you can't get more transparent than that.

The prosecutor is not an advocate for the victim in a police shooting, that's nonsense. Prosecutors may at times indict rogue cops, and sometimes GJs don't vote the way the way prosecutor wants. But by and large it's the other way round. This way the prosecutor exerts the most influence while creating an appearance of objectivity.

Also, transparency is not a slam dunk. I believe the prosecutor has to ask a judge to allow transcripts to be released. There's no guarantee that they'll do so.
 
You don't seem unclear about that at all . . . until Athena got you to address her question that is.

You are confusing me with the pro-Brown side which is very certain that Wilson "murdered" Brown or that Wilson was a racist.
Showdown time, Derec : your long term history observed by many of us is your propensity to confuse posters who are critical of Israeli policies for being antisemitic. To confuse posters who disagree with your interpretation of the Marissa Alexander case for being gender bias. Now to claim that Athena's attempts to focus this discussion on what she has evaluated to be the actual crux of this case( and her focus being fully supported by me) as being the product of the "pro Brown side which is very certain that Wilson "murdered" Brown or that Wilson was a racist". Anyone paying attention to what I developed on to support what is the actual crux of this case can hardly make a case that there is any portraying on my part of Officer Wilson having "murdered Brown" or that he is a racist.

The 2 participants to this thread who have consistently and several times attempted to motivate you to address the crux of this case are Athena and me.
 
But we don't know his arm span at this time. Many men have "tryannosaur" arms like myself and must get my suits tailored because of it.
I did mention the unknown "ape factor" but the fact still remains that taller people tend to have longer arm span as well.

Yes, I know the difference between trends in size and individuals. If I were you, I'd stick to the known facts rather than speculating on arm length especially since it while it appears to support your position, it actually undermines it. I'll let others figure it out if you want to drop the "ape arms" argument.
 
Now to claim that Athena's attempts to focus this discussion on what she has evaluated to be the actual crux of this case( and her focus being fully supported by me) as being the product of the "pro Brown side which is very certain that Wilson "murdered" Brown or that Wilson was a racist". Anyone paying attention to what I developed on to support what is the actual crux of this case can hardly make a case that there is any portraying on my part of Officer Wilson having "murdered Brown" or that he is a racist.
I did not single any individual out here. But that is a very common attitude among the Brown supporters on the Internet and on the streets of Ferguson.
The 2 participants to this thread who have consistently and several times attempted to motivate you to address the crux of this case are Athena and me.
What you call the "crux of the case" didn't occur in a vacuum. What happened immediately before matters a great deal.
 
Yes, I know the difference between trends in size and individuals. If I were you, I'd stick to the known facts rather than speculating on arm length especially since it while it appears to support your position, it actually undermines it.
How so?

I'll let others figure it out if you want to drop the "ape arms" argument.
Given our society's hysteria over political correctness the term is perhaps a bit unfortunate but "ape index" is what the ratio or arm span to height is actually called.
 
How so?

I'll let others figure it out if you want to drop the "ape arms" argument.
Given our society's hysteria over political correctness the term is perhaps a bit unfortunate but "ape index" is what the ratio or arm span to height is actually called.

Really, your saying this to a man who just used the term, "tyrannosaur arms"?
 
Weaseling

Blog of Dr. Judy Melinek, the source for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch's story.

I read the report, and spent half an hour on the phone with the reporter explaining Michael Brown's autopsy report line-by-line, and I told her not to quote me - but that I would send her quotes she could use in an e mail. The next morning, I found snippets of phrases from our conversation taken out of context in her article in the Post-Dispatch. These inaccurate and misleading quotes were picked up and disseminated by other journals, blogs, and websites.
 
I did not single any individual out here. But that is a very common attitude among the Brown supporters on the Internet and on the streets of Ferguson.
The 2 participants to this thread who have consistently and several times attempted to motivate you to address the crux of this case are Athena and me.
What you call the "crux of the case" didn't occur in a vacuum. What happened immediately before matters a great deal.
Since I never claimed that it "occurred in a vacuum" but was very specific as to my argument being based on threat assessment changing according to a change of circumstance, what are you talking about? Is this a case of you not taking the time to carefully read which reasoning has been expanded on to support an argumentation? It might be in your best interest and interest of other posters who take the time to explain their reasoning with specifics worthy of being noticed, for you to reflect before you click on reply.

Further, to a comment referring directly to Athena's question you responded with a comment pointing to your dumping everyone in the same bag. I just now observed the same trend on your part in the thread on Marissa Alexander and I directly confronted you about it in that thread a few minutes ago.
 
Blog of Dr. Judy Melinek, the source for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch's story.

I read the report, and spent half an hour on the phone with the reporter explaining Michael Brown's autopsy report line-by-line, and I told her not to quote me - but that I would send her quotes she could use in an e mail. The next morning, I found snippets of phrases from our conversation taken out of context in her article in the Post-Dispatch. These inaccurate and misleading quotes were picked up and disseminated by other journals, blogs, and websites.
What that indicates is to which extent folks who trust reporters to abide to terms and conditions regarding their statements, should not trust them. Why? Because reporters are notorious for serving their self interest, which is to captivate the attention of a wider audience. Again sensationalism wins over accurate quoting and accuracy of information presented to the public .
 
Blog of Dr. Judy Melinek, the source for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch's story.
What that indicates is to which extent folks who trust reporters to abide to terms and conditions regarding their statements, should not trust them. Why? Because reporters are notorious for serving their self interest, which is to captivate the attention of a wider audience. Again sensationalism wins over accurate quoting and accuracy of information presented to the public .

So Michael Brown did not have ebola? DAMN YOU WORLD NUT DAILY!

I like how, "could be close to the gun" changed to "he's going for the gun".
 
, the bit about "and his hands were not up" in Officer Wilson's claim remains highly questionable considering the contractor's spontaneous reaction to the shooting, reaction which was communicated verbally and captured on video.

Do you think the Grand Jury will see this video?
 
What that indicates is to which extent folks who trust reporters to abide to terms and conditions regarding their statements, should not trust them. Why? Because reporters are notorious for serving their self interest, which is to captivate the attention of a wider audience. Again sensationalism wins over accurate quoting and accuracy of information presented to the public .

So Michael Brown did not have ebola? DAMN YOU WORLD NUT DAILY!

I like how, "could be close to the gun" changed to "he's going for the gun".
The one other thing that you don't read about is Brown going after the cop the first time, you know, as in charging or attacking. Cop stops, then there is a scuffle, which implies cop is right on top of Brown's location, which could help add the context of what really transpired.
 
The Police Are Still Out of Control I should know. By FRANK SERPICO

It wasn’t any surprise to me that, after Michael Brown was shot dead in Ferguson, officers instinctively lined up behind Darren Wilson, the cop who allegedly killed Brown. Officer Wilson may well have had cause to fire if Brown was attacking him, as some reports suggest, but it is also possible we will never know the full truth—whether, for example, it was really necessary for Wilson to shoot Brown at least six times, killing rather than just wounding him. As they always do, the police unions closed ranks also behind the officer in question. And the district attorney (who is often totally in bed with the police and needs their votes) and city power structure can almost always be counted on to stand behind the unions.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...till-out-of-control-112160.html#ixzz3H5aYpr6p
 
if he was outside the car, then he wasn't inside the car wrestling the gun away :shrug:

Look context is king. Maybe he did have his hands up. Maybe the cop told him to get down and instead he moved towards the cop who he just assaulted a few moments before. Instead of laying down he moved towards the cop anyway. I don't give darn where his hands were. If he as told to lay down and instead moved towards the cop, that's threatening. But again, why don't we wait to hang the cop or denigrate the victim until we have all of the evidence? It will be out in a month or so....
one, he was 25 feet away by that point. Two, according to the claim I was responding to, he was also temporarily deaf and disoriented

His head was not inside the car, just his arms.

He must have extremely long arms then because otherwise, if his head is outside the car, I don't see how it would be physically possible for Mike Brown to have been reaching for the police officer's holstered gun as people are claiming he was.

Huh? Assuming the window was open it certainly seems possible if the gun was on his left hip.
 
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