Michael Brown Shooting and Aftermath

[Derec]

The law is not a justification.

If you have to go to Iran as an example to make your point.
US is not Iran. And if you don't like jaywalking laws you can write to your state rep to change them. Until then police have the right to stop people for jaywalking.

Brown was jaywalking in an ostensibly safe manner.

So police should ignore lawbreaking as long as it is done in an "ostensibly safe manner"? I do not think that defense would work for speeders, so why jaywalkers? According to Wilson, at least one car had to drive around this slowly moving obstacle. Pedestrians do not belong in the roadway. Why did Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson think themselves too good to use the sidewalk like everybody else?

The report did not indicate that the street was busy or that he was obstructing existing traffic.

It does mention Wilson observing one motorist who was obstructed.

You claim that the situations presented are qualitatively different yet they are not: their quality of relevance is that neither action endangered drivers, pedestrians, or the flow of traffic.

So you think police should have ignored it? You think Michael Brown had some special right to walk down the middle of the street and any police officer telling him to use the sidewalk was a "bully"? That's just ridiculius.

Finally, telling someone to not be where they are can very much be bullying and harassment,

It could be. It wasn't in this case, as it was said by a police officer and the person told not to be where they were indeed did not have any legal right to be where they were and thus should have moved to a place where they had a legal right to be.

particularly when there's a robbery suspect they could be on the lookout for actively.

Newsflash, he found the robber. Luckily most thugs are stupid. Had Brown not walked down the middle of the street he might have gotten away with it.

The culture of poor neighborhoods is to use streets in a way that the denizens of them find most functional.

The culture of poor neighborhoods is to impede vehicular traffic by walking down the middle of the street and eschewing sidewalks?

It's actually pretty racist that jaywalking statutes even are imposed on communities with such different cultural values.

It'a a cultural value to walk down the middle of the street rather than on the sidewalk?
It's racist to enforce jaywalking laws? Just wow. I would say the opposite - saying that certain laws should not apply to certain ethnic or racial groups or that law enforcement should be race-specific is racist on its face!

You make a bi stink about state rights,

Do I?

Well what about neighborhood rights?

Cities and counties are free to make their own local ordinances within the framework of state laws. Just like states are free to make their own laws within the framework of federal law.

 

[George S]

Unfortunately, these police weren't nearly so selective: https://storify.com/deray/ferguson-beginning

Two things that pop out in those tweets:
- no civilian cars were visible anywhere on any photos of the area. Jarhyn must have been right that nobody drives in that neighborhood! </sarcasm>
- sheer misinformation evident in the tweets that no doubt contributed to the irrational anger that's still going on, long after we have a more accurate picture. For example, Brown wasn't 17 but 18. He wasn't walking to the store, but from a store (that he just robbed). It wasn't an execution.

There was a video published on 8/20 that has been removed. http://www.infowars.com/video-witne...-untainted-account-of-michael-brown-incident/

The man can be heard in the background of a video giving an unfiltered account of the incident to another person, as Brown’s body lays in the street. Again, the notable conversation takes place in the background.

As it is difficult to make out, various Internet sleuths have collaborated to create transcripts of what the man is saying. Here’s one version:

1 How’d he get from there to there?

#2 Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck

{crosstalk}

#2 But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him

{crosstalk}

#2 Then the next thing I know he coming back toward him cus – the police had his gun drawn already on him –

#1. Oh, the police got his gun

#2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him

Dr. Baden (a professional in autopsy, and frequent guest on Fox News [who was cut off on-air as he]) noted that the injuries show that when the fatal two shots were fired Brown the top of Brown's head was pointing at the gun.

He may have been falling from the prior non-fatal hit. If "charging," his upper body was almost horizontal. If surrendering with his hands "up" his arms would have been (presumably) in line with his spine which was horizontal. This is consistent with his going to his knees and bending at his waist with his hands up. Consistent with obeying an order to "get on the ground."

The prosecutor could have presented (as prosecutors routinely do with grand juries) only damning facts. The autopsy is consistent with his surrendering. And is also consistent with Wilson's account which should have been presented to a petite (trial) jury by the defense. It was just plain wrong for the prosecutor to try the case in the grand jury.

But in today's justice system, as portrayed on the TV show Law & Order, Police and Prosecution are a team. The prosecutor's intent appears to me to have been an attempt to clear a team member.

Police-involved shootings should require a special prosecutor who is independent from the local law and order team.

 

[Mumbles]

Unfortunately, these police weren't nearly so selective: https://storify.com/deray/ferguson-beginning

Two things that pop out in those tweets:
- no civilian cars were visible anywhere on any photos of the area. Jarhyn must have been right that nobody drives in that neighborhood! </sarcasm>
- sheer misinformation evident in the tweets that no doubt contributed to the irrational anger that's still going on, long after we have a more accurate picture. For example, Brown wasn't 17 but 18. He wasn't walking to the store, but from a store (that he just robbed). It wasn't an execution.

Of course there's misinformation - it's social media. There's also photos of dramatic escalation of the crowds by police, on the very first night, before any organized protest. Just police presence can often be unnecessary, but shotguns and K-9 units at the scene where you just killed a person, in a residential neighborhood where he lived, is a surefire way to enrage the crowd.

 

[Jarhyn]

If you have to go to Iran as an example to make your point.
US is not Iran. And if you don't like jaywalking laws you can write to your state rep to change them. Until then police have the right to stop people for jaywalking.

Brown was jaywalking in an ostensibly safe manner.

So police should ignore lawbreaking as long as it is done in an "ostensibly safe manner"? I do not think that defense would work for speeders, so why jaywalkers? According to Wilson, at least one car had to drive around this slowly moving obstacle. Pedestrians do not belong in the roadway. Why did Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson think themselves too good to use the sidewalk like everybody else?

The report did not indicate that the street was busy or that he was obstructing existing traffic.

It does mention Wilson observing one motorist who was obstructed.

You claim that the situations presented are qualitatively different yet they are not: their quality of relevance is that neither action endangered drivers, pedestrians, or the flow of traffic.

So you think police should have ignored it? You think Michael Brown had some special right to walk down the middle of the street and any police officer telling him to use the sidewalk was a "bully"? That's just ridiculius.

Finally, telling someone to not be where they are can very much be bullying and harassment,

It could be. It wasn't in this case, as it was said by a police officer and the person told not to be where they were indeed did not have any legal right to be where they were and thus should have moved to a place where they had a legal right to be.

particularly when there's a robbery suspect they could be on the lookout for actively.

Newsflash, he found the robber. Luckily most thugs are stupid. Had Brown not walked down the middle of the street he might have gotten away with it.

The culture of poor neighborhoods is to use streets in a way that the denizens of them find most functional.

The culture of poor neighborhoods is to impede vehicular traffic by walking down the middle of the street and eschewing sidewalks?

It's actually pretty racist that jaywalking statutes even are imposed on communities with such different cultural values.

It'a a cultural value to walk down the middle of the street rather than on the sidewalk?
It's racist to enforce jaywalking laws? Just wow. I would say the opposite - saying that certain laws should not apply to certain ethnic or racial groups or that law enforcement should be race-specific is racist on its face!

You make a bi stink about state rights,

Do I?

Well what about neighborhood rights?

Cities and counties are free to make their own local ordinances within the framework of state laws. Just like states are free to make their own laws within the framework of federal law.

You made an appeal to law. Either the law IS justification or the law ISN'T sufficient t justification. You don't get to have it both ways. It is either a or !a. You just proved my point that it is !a. you have agreed that the law is not on its own a justification. it doesn't in Iran, it doesn't here, it doesn't justify bullying and abuse anywhere.

You are what is 'nerds' generally refer to as lawful evil: gaming the law to get whatever you want. Newsflash: it's still fucking evil. A jury acquitted you? You're innocent. The cop gave you a ticket and you have no means to adequately contest it? You're guilty! A cop ticketed you? Hire a lawyer to smear the cop! Someone you don't like has a nicer yard than you? Call the city and get them cited for an overgrown lawn when they're on vacation! It's LEGAL after all.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

According to Wilson's testimony: He's driving down Canfield and sees 2 guys walking down the middle of the road causing at least one other car to move around them. The officer tells the two to move to the sidewalk and words are exchanged. The officer continues driving but then jerks squad car into reverse to block path of the jaywalkers. He winds up very close to them and tries to open his door to confront them instead of letting the brazen/disrespectful/unlawful behavior go... This isn't necessarily a case where the officer knew he was stopping robbers, but they were allegedly causing car(s) to avoid them - meeting your criteria for ticketing a jaywalker.

Yup. I consider jaywalking a no-harm-no-foul type of offense (if you do not inconvenience a car I don't believe it shouldn't be a crime) but the mere fact that a cop in a car confronted him basically proves there was traffic about and thus it's not no-harm.

 

[coloradoatheist]

According to Wilson's testimony: He's driving down Canfield and sees 2 guys walking down the middle of the road causing at least one other car to move around them. The officer tells the two to move to the sidewalk and words are exchanged. The officer continues driving but then jerks squad car into reverse to block path of the jaywalkers. He winds up very close to them and tries to open his door to confront them instead of letting the brazen/disrespectful/unlawful behavior go... This isn't necessarily a case where the officer knew he was stopping robbers, but they were allegedly causing car(s) to avoid them - meeting your criteria for ticketing a jaywalker.

Yup. I consider jaywalking a no-harm-no-foul type of offense (if you do not inconvenience a car I don't believe it shouldn't be a crime) but the mere fact that a cop in a car confronted him basically proves there was traffic about and thus it's not no-harm.

And he was going to let them go with a warning until either Brown said "FU cop" or that he recognized Brown from the description of the prior incident.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

Yup. I consider jaywalking a no-harm-no-foul type of offense (if you do not inconvenience a car I don't believe it shouldn't be a crime) but the mere fact that a cop in a car confronted him basically proves there was traffic about and thus it's not no-harm.

And he was going to let them go with a warning until either Brown said "FU cop" or that he recognized Brown from the description of the prior incident.

And you know this how? Based on who's testimony? And what leads you to believe that testimony?

 

[coloradoatheist]

And he was going to let them go with a warning until either Brown said "FU cop" or that he recognized Brown from the description of the prior incident.

And you know this how? Based on who's testimony? And what leads you to believe that testimony?

I don't know which of the two options happened, but Wilson started driving off and then backed up to stop them. He did that for one of the two reasons, either pissed at Brown's attitude or from the robbery.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

I thought that it was not for certain that he started to drive off. Iirc, the witness testimony did not agree on that point. Am I wrong there?

 

[RavenSky]

According to Wilson's testimony: He's driving down Canfield and sees 2 guys walking down the middle of the road causing at least one other car to move around them. The officer tells the two to move to the sidewalk and words are exchanged. The officer continues driving but then jerks squad car into reverse to block path of the jaywalkers. He winds up very close to them and tries to open his door to confront them instead of letting the brazen/disrespectful/unlawful behavior go... This isn't necessarily a case where the officer knew he was stopping robbers, but they were allegedly causing car(s) to avoid them - meeting your criteria for ticketing a jaywalker.

Yup. I consider jaywalking a no-harm-no-foul type of offense (if you do not inconvenience a car I don't believe it shouldn't be a crime) but the mere fact that a cop in a car confronted him basically proves there was traffic about and thus it's not no-harm.

Well that is quite the circular reasoning...

The cop confronted him because Brown must have inconvenienced a car as proved by the fact the cop confronted him

 

[Trausti]

I thought that it was not for certain that he started to drive off. Iirc, the witness testimony did not agree on that point. Am I wrong there?

What does it matter? The call log shows that Wilson was aware of the robbery, the suspects' descriptions, and asked for a second car on Canfield for that purpose.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

well, it matters because Darren Wilson bulked up like a raging negro and shot Brown a number of times a substantial distance from the patrol car until brown died. Maybe that's just me.

 

[Davka]

According to Wilson's testimony: He's driving down Canfield and sees 2 guys walking down the middle of the road causing at least one other car to move around them. The officer tells the two to move to the sidewalk and words are exchanged. The officer continues driving but then jerks squad car into reverse to block path of the jaywalkers. He winds up very close to them and tries to open his door to confront them instead of letting the brazen/disrespectful/unlawful behavior go... This isn't necessarily a case where the officer knew he was stopping robbers, but they were allegedly causing car(s) to avoid them - meeting your criteria for ticketing a jaywalker.

Yup. I consider jaywalking a no-harm-no-foul type of offense (if you do not inconvenience a car I don't believe it shouldn't be a crime) but the mere fact that a cop in a car confronted him basically proves there was traffic about and thus it's not no-harm.

No, the fact that a cop confronted him proves that a cop confronted him. that's all.

I was once harassed by a cop for jaywalking on Thanksgiving. the streets were completely empty. The cop was bored. So my experience disproves your naive "cops would never do anything without a legitimate reason" nonsense. Sometimes cops are just dicks.

- - - Updated - - -

well, it matters because Darren Wilson bulked up like a raging negro and shot Brown a number of times a substantial distance from the patrol car until brown died. Maybe that's just me.

you can stop with the racist stereotypes now, tyvm.

 

[ZiprHead]

All this talk about what happened prior to the final kill shots really, to me, matters not. Yes, Brown should have been arrested and gotten convicted for the robbery for which he would have spent a few days in jail until he makes bail, sentenced to a fine, time served, and probation (the likely outcome). And maybe if Wilson had handled the situation better, a better solution by the police vehicle could have come about. If not, Brown could have gotten his thirty days in jail for resisting.

What matters is whether Brown was shot while surrendering or not.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

exactly

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yup. I consider jaywalking a no-harm-no-foul type of offense (if you do not inconvenience a car I don't believe it shouldn't be a crime) but the mere fact that a cop in a car confronted him basically proves there was traffic about and thus it's not no-harm.

Well that is quite the circular reasoning...

The cop confronted him because Brown must have inconvenienced a car as proved by the fact the cop confronted him

The cop was in a car. That means there was a car there and people walking down the middle of the road certainly inconvenience a car.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yup. I consider jaywalking a no-harm-no-foul type of offense (if you do not inconvenience a car I don't believe it shouldn't be a crime) but the mere fact that a cop in a car confronted him basically proves there was traffic about and thus it's not no-harm.

No, the fact that a cop confronted him proves that a cop confronted him. that's all.

I was once harassed by a cop for jaywalking on Thanksgiving. the streets were completely empty. The cop was bored. So my experience disproves your naive "cops would never do anything without a legitimate reason" nonsense. Sometimes cops are just dicks.

What you are missing is that we conclusively know the streets were not empty: Wilson's car was there.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Well that is quite the circular reasoning...

The cop confronted him because Brown must have inconvenienced a car as proved by the fact the cop confronted him

The cop was in a car. That means there was a car there and people walking down the middle of the road certainly inconvenience a car.

Ah, the logic of eight-year-olds.

Bill: Ted punched me in the face!
Ted: I did not! I just punched the air and his face got in the way! He should keep his stupid face out of the way of my fist!

 

[Testy Calibrate]

A cop car is still a car. Loren's point seems valid to the extent that the cop car was indeed a car in the road.

 

[rednoise]

you can stop with the racist stereotypes now, tyvm.

beep boop.