Michael Brown Shooting and Aftermath

[Davka]

The occasional accidental stopping of a wanted criminal for jaywalking does not justify the tens of thousands of stops that are mere harassment.

The occasional accidental stopping of a wanted criminal for driving while black does not justify the tens of thousands of stops that are mere harassment.

The occasional accidental stopping of a wanted criminal for blocking the sidewalk does not justify the tens of thousands of stops that are mere harassment.

The occasional accidental stopping of a wanted criminal for vagrancy does not justify the tens of thousands of stops that are mere harassment.

and so on.

A badge is not a license to be a bullying fuck.

 

[Jayjay]

What tens of thousands of stops? Is stopping people for jaywalking really such an endemic problem that we should be concerned? Do we have any reason to think Wilson in particular had a pattern of harrassing people for jaywalking?

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, because the cops accidentally found a bad criminal via a jaywalking stop, you are saying that stopping any and all for jaywalking is justified?

There are a billion laws. Stopping someone for any of them is a legal stop. Full stop.

If there should not be a law against jaywalking see your legislators.

You missed the point. Of course there are many laws and if we are to enforce them all then we're woefully understaffed. So, in reality, police forces must pick and choose which laws they are going to enforce.

 

[Jarhyn]

seriously, fuck the law and fuck the police when they get in a huff over someone jaywalking in a poor neighborhood. It happens. Deal with it. We are paying these people to respond to robberies, not Jaywalking.

Michael Brown case is a really poor example then because the jaywalker was actually a robber.

Consider this incident:

A pimp for whom authorities searched nearly two years for alleged human trafficking in Athens was recently busted because he made the wrong step.

On Jan. 16, Archie Richard Byrd was questioned by an officer in DeKalb County when he was seen jaywalking.

Initially giving an alias, Byrd was eventually found to be the person who eluded authorities in April 2012 when local, state and federal authorities set up a sting at a motel near downtown Athens. The operation was designed to capture human traffickers and rescue the underage girls from the sex trade.

“Archie Byrd was charged with providing the officer with a false name and date of birth, but it was the jaywalking that alerted the police and what lead to the contact with him,” said Mark Malueg, supervisor of the Athens-Clarke County police Vice Unit.

Should be berate the cops for harrassing this guy for jaywalking when they should have been looking for pimps and human traffickers?

I don't know, but it seems the Michael Brown shooting is a really GOOD example. If they'd been busy responding to the robbery report instead, they'd be able to just flag him down and ask if he saw or heard anything about a robbery, then when he RAN, they'd have probable cause to arrest him, and all the events leading to the shooting would be entirely and completely justified.

As for Byrd, no, they shouldn't have bothered. An action is right or wrong when taken, and looking for robbers, rapists, and thieves is generally a better way to catch them than bothering people whose only other crime is jaywalking. It was little more than a thinly veiled stop and frisk. You might as well ask if spending a thousand dollars on lottery tickets is ever a wise investment. The wisdom of an action is probability times payout, not the actual payout.

In agressively pursuing jaywalkers, the vast majority of the result is going to be tickets for people who otherwise have a time affording healthy food and rent.

 

[Jayjay]

Should be berate the cops for harrassing this guy for jaywalking when they should have been looking for pimps and human traffickers?

So, because the cops accidentally found a bad criminal via a jaywalking stop, you are saying that stopping any and all for jaywalking is justified?

No, I'm saying that in these two cases it happened to be justified. If there is a problem with cops stopping people from jaywalking, find examples where the person does not happen to be a robber or a pimp.

In general, jaywalking laws are in the books and cops are perfectly within their rights to stop people for jaywalking. whether they are actually doing so is up to them... maybe cops are taking it overboard, but just maybe they might be using it as a pretext to stop people they find otherwise suspicious. If your only example of the injustice of jaywalking stops is a case where he guy does actually happen to be a robbery suspect, how can you tell that the cop was just being a dick, rather than having a valid gut feelng that there is something else going on?

 

[Jarhyn]

So, because the cops accidentally found a bad criminal via a jaywalking stop, you are saying that stopping any and all for jaywalking is justified?

No, I'm saying that in these two cases it happened to be justified. If there is a problem with cops stopping people from jaywalking, find examples where the person does not happen to be a robber or a pimp.

In general, jaywalking laws are in the books and cops are perfectly within their rights to stop people for jaywalking. whether they are actually doing so is up to them... maybe cops are taking it overboard, but just maybe they might be using it as a pretext to stop people they find otherwise suspicious. If your only example of the injustice of jaywalking stops is a case where he guy does actually happen to be a robbery suspect, how can you tell that the cop was just being a dick, rather than having a valid gut feelng that there is something else going on?

No. It wasn't justified in either case. Unless they knew BEFORE stopping them that they were stopping criminals, they could not have been justified. Playing the lottery with someone else's dignity and civil liberties, with their money and reputation, is an unacceptable longshot. 'Gut' feelings are not enough. Generally we require such things as 'probable cause', aka 'evidence' before detaining them.

The only times I'd ever accept a cop ticketing people for jaywalking or even saying anything about it is when the person doing it is in a crowded intersection, a busy street, a car honks at them, or is forced to swerve or stop, or some other actually socially irresponsible thing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

He's a thug for the robbery, not for his interaction with the cop.

attend this well: the cop didn't know about the robbery, so the robbery does not justify the cop's action. It would be different if the cop had known. An action is right or wrong when taken, not when the results are known.

Nobody said it did.

The issue of being a thug is a matter of understanding why he reacted the way he did, it's not relevant to how Wilson behaved.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

seriously, fuck the law and fuck the police when they get in a huff over someone jaywalking in a poor neighborhood. It happens. Deal with it. We are paying these people to respond to robberies, not
Jaywalking. And if someone really needs to use the street to move their car (doubtful, given the neighborhood), and Michael brown gets run over for not moving, good on the guy that creams him.

Seriously how vigerously do you believe jaywalking statutes ought be enforced? Tell me you've never jaywalked before!

The police tend to get in a huff about jaywalking, period. I've been hassled by a cop for walking across the street when there wasn't a car in sight anywhere--I was not in a bad neighborhood at all and in fact was walking over to the cop to ask for traffic advice. (I didn't get a ticket for it, though--the cop could see I was right that I had done it safely, walking a long block out of my way was just a waste.)

 

[EPresence2]

No, I'm saying that in these two cases it happened to be justified. If there is a problem with cops stopping people from jaywalking, find examples where the person does not happen to be a robber or a pimp.

In general, jaywalking laws are in the books and cops are perfectly within their rights to stop people for jaywalking. whether they are actually doing so is up to them... maybe cops are taking it overboard, but just maybe they might be using it as a pretext to stop people they find otherwise suspicious. If your only example of the injustice of jaywalking stops is a case where he guy does actually happen to be a robbery suspect, how can you tell that the cop was just being a dick, rather than having a valid gut feelng that there is something else going on?

No. It wasn't justified in either case. Unless they knew BEFORE stopping them that they were stopping criminals, they could not have been justified. Playing the lottery with someone else's dignity and civil liberties, with their money and reputation, is an unacceptable longshot. 'Gut' feelings are not enough. Generally we require such things as 'probable cause', aka 'evidence' before detaining them.

The only times I'd ever accept a cop ticketing people for jaywalking or even saying anything about it is when the person doing it is in a crowded intersection, a busy street, a car honks at them, or is forced to swerve or stop, or some other actually socially irresponsible thing.

According to Wilson's testimony: He's driving down Canfield and sees 2 guys walking down the middle of the road causing at least one other car to move around them. The officer tells the two to move to the sidewalk and words are exchanged. The officer continues driving but then jerks squad car into reverse to block path of the jaywalkers. He winds up very close to them and tries to open his door to confront them instead of letting the brazen/disrespectful/unlawful behavior go... This isn't necessarily a case where the officer knew he was stopping robbers, but they were allegedly causing car(s) to avoid them - meeting your criteria for ticketing a jaywalker.

 

[Jayjay]

No, I'm saying that in these two cases it happened to be justified. If there is a problem with cops stopping people from jaywalking, find examples where the person does not happen to be a robber or a pimp.

In general, jaywalking laws are in the books and cops are perfectly within their rights to stop people for jaywalking. whether they are actually doing so is up to them... maybe cops are taking it overboard, but just maybe they might be using it as a pretext to stop people they find otherwise suspicious. If your only example of the injustice of jaywalking stops is a case where he guy does actually happen to be a robbery suspect, how can you tell that the cop was just being a dick, rather than having a valid gut feelng that there is something else going on?

No. It wasn't justified in either case. Unless they knew BEFORE stopping them that they were stopping criminals, they could not have been justified. Playing the lottery with someone else's dignity and civil liberties, with their money and reputation, is an unacceptable longshot. 'Gut' feelings are not enough. Generally we require such things as 'probable cause', aka 'evidence' before detaining them.

The only times I'd ever accept a cop ticketing people for jaywalking or even saying anything about it is when the person doing it is in a crowded intersection, a busy street, a car honks at them, or is forced to swerve or stop, or some other actually socially irresponsible thing.

How do we know it was irresponsible? How do we know Wilson was playing the lottery and just got lucky with Brown (in terms of stopping a robbery suspect, not in terms of what transpired afterwards of course)? This is why it is a bad example. If only empirical data we have is Wilson stopping Brown, that's 100% accuracy in stopping a robber regardless of what the thought process behind it was. To shwo that it was a lottery we'd have to be mind readers or have more statistical data, say, history of incidents where Wilson or other police officers stop otherwise people for jaywalking.

 

[George S]

seriously, fuck the law and fuck the police when they get in a huff over someone jaywalking in a poor neighborhood. It happens. Deal with it. We are paying these people to respond to robberies, not
Jaywalking. And if someone really needs to use the street to move their car (doubtful, given the neighborhood), and Michael brown gets run over for not moving, good on the guy that creams him.

Seriously how vigerously do you believe jaywalking statutes ought be enforced? Tell me you've never jaywalked before!

The police tend to get in a huff about jaywalking, period. I've been hassled by a cop for walking across the street when there wasn't a car in sight anywhere--I was not in a bad neighborhood at all and in fact was walking over to the cop to ask for traffic advice. (I didn't get a ticket for it, though--the cop could see I was right that I had done it safely, walking a long block out of my way was just a waste.)

The driving equivalent of jaywalking is failure to use a signal changing lanes (safely passing the only car for miles). Been there, done that. They eyeballed everything they could see inside including flashlighting the back seat. It was a justified traffic stop. Good thing I did not have marijuana smoke, open liquor bottles nor a body in the back seat. Nor did I do any other thing to raise their fear.

 

[Derec]

seriously, fuck the law and fuck the police when they get in a huff over someone jaywalking in a poor neighborhood.

So only people living in middle class or rich neighborhoods should have the privilege of being able to drive down their street without having to dodge pedestrians?

It happens. Deal with it. We are paying these people to respond to robberies, not Jaywalking.

So police should not enforce any laws that are not very serious? Where do you draw the line?

And if someone really needs to use the street to move their car (doubtful, given the neighborhood),

Looking at satellite imagery of Canfield Green Apartments I see quite a number of cars in parking lots and in the street.

and Michael brown gets run over for not moving, good on the guy that creams him.

So you'd rather Michael Brown be run over than to be told by police to move to the sidewalk? Just like you'd rather Michael Brown attack the cop rather than getting out of the road? Interesting value system.

Seriously how vigerously do you believe jaywalking statutes ought be enforced?

Not vigerously[sic] at all. It's not like Wilson was part of the new anti-jaywalking task force. But if a cop sees a minor infraction like jaywalking I do not think they should have to ignore it either.

Tell me you've never jaywalked before!

I am sure I have but if a cop told me to get out of the street I'd move to the sidewalk. Then again, I wouldn't have been stealing Swisher Sweets in the first place.

 

[Derec]

You keep pointing to the legality of the stop as if that makes it justified.

They are kind of the same thing.

If a cop pulled you over for, say, jaywalking, when you stepped out into the street a half second before getting a walk signal, then arrested you for not complying with a lawful order when you stood dumbly not understanding he was talking to you, then when you tensed up in any way tazed you for resisting arrest, it is certainly LEGAL, but it isn't JUSTIFIED.

Except none of this was what happened here. Brown didn't step onto the street for half a second, but was walking down the middle, forcing at least one car to drive around him. And he didn't just stand dumbly or tense either.

There are things everyone does every day that are illegal. Being a pedantic asshole about those rules is not justified.

There are many things that are illegal that should be legal. Jaywalking is not one of them. And if you have a law police are within their rights to enforce it. Now they do not have to issue a ticket each time, but apparently to you even telling somebody to get out of the middle of the street is "bullying" and "harassment".

 

[Rhea]

They are kind of the same thing.

If a cop pulled you over for, say, jaywalking, when you stepped out into the street a half second before getting a walk signal, then arrested you for not complying with a lawful order when you stood dumbly not understanding he was talking to you, then when you tensed up in any way tazed you for resisting arrest, it is certainly LEGAL, but it isn't JUSTIFIED.

Except none of this was what happened here. Brown didn't step onto the street for half a second, but was walking down the middle, forcing at least one car to drive around him. And he didn't just stand dumbly or tense either.

There are things everyone does every day that are illegal. Being a pedantic asshole about those rules is not justified.

There are many things that are illegal that should be legal. Jaywalking is not one of them. And if you have a law police are within their rights to enforce it. Now they do not have to issue a ticket each time, but apparently to you even telling somebody to get out of the middle of the street is "bullying" and "harassment".

Sheeeit. Around here you stop your pick-up right in the middle of the road to talk to your neighbor. Hang around there for 20 minutes or more, and it's a 55mph speed zone. What a place to live where "jaywalking" is a thing. That'll get you arrested.

 

[Toni]

They are kind of the same thing.

Except none of this was what happened here. Brown didn't step onto the street for half a second, but was walking down the middle, forcing at least one car to drive around him. And he didn't just stand dumbly or tense either.

There are things everyone does every day that are illegal. Being a pedantic asshole about those rules is not justified.

There are many things that are illegal that should be legal. Jaywalking is not one of them. And if you have a law police are within their rights to enforce it. Now they do not have to issue a ticket each time, but apparently to you even telling somebody to get out of the middle of the street is "bullying" and "harassment".

Sheeeit. Around here you stop your pick-up right in the middle of the road to talk to your neighbor. Hang around there for 20 minutes or more, and it's a 55mph speed zone. What a place to live where "jaywalking" is a thing. That'll get you arrested.

It's one of those 'annoyance' charges. Like pulling over a car for having something hanging from the rearview mirror. Done as a fishing expedition when you suspect the driver may be driving under the influence, or with a suspended license, or may have a joint in the glove compartment or maybe has outstanding warrants. Used primarily when the tail lights are intact.

Yeah, in my town, people jay walk ALL THE TIME. They also drive right on through marked pedestrian crossings with pedestrians waiting to cross. Even officers in patrol cars do this. Also drivers of two vehicles going opposite directions notice they are friends or relatives or second cousins twice removed or are on the same softball team or want to borrow the other one's chainsaw and so they just stop their vehicles and have a nice chat about it. Also kids, and by kids, I mean college aged young people, play frisbee and sometimes football in the street on the smaller side streets.

Derec would have a stroke.

 

[RavenSky]

They are kind of the same thing.

Except none of this was what happened here. Brown didn't step onto the street for half a second, but was walking down the middle, forcing at least one car to drive around him. And he didn't just stand dumbly or tense either.

There are things everyone does every day that are illegal. Being a pedantic asshole about those rules is not justified.

There are many things that are illegal that should be legal. Jaywalking is not one of them. And if you have a law police are within their rights to enforce it. Now they do not have to issue a ticket each time, but apparently to you even telling somebody to get out of the middle of the street is "bullying" and "harassment".

Sheeeit. Around here you stop your pick-up right in the middle of the road to talk to your neighbor. Hang around there for 20 minutes or more, and it's a 55mph speed zone. What a place to live where "jaywalking" is a thing. That'll get you arrested.

that will get you dead, apparently.

 

[Davka]

The police tend to get in a huff about jaywalking, period. I've been hassled by a cop for walking across the street when there wasn't a car in sight anywhere--I was not in a bad neighborhood at all and in fact was walking over to the cop to ask for traffic advice. (I didn't get a ticket for it, though--the cop could see I was right that I had done it safely, walking a long block out of my way was just a waste.)

The driving equivalent of jaywalking is failure to use a signal changing lanes (safely passing the only car for miles). Been there, done that. They eyeballed everything they could see inside including flashlighting the back seat. It was a justified traffic stop. Good thing I did not have marijuana smoke, open liquor bottles nor a body in the back seat. Nor did I do any other thing to raise their fear.

You mean like having dark skin?

 

[Jarhyn]

They are kind of the same thing.

If a cop pulled you over for, say, jaywalking, when you stepped out into the street a half second before getting a walk signal, then arrested you for not complying with a lawful order when you stood dumbly not understanding he was talking to you, then when you tensed up in any way tazed you for resisting arrest, it is certainly LEGAL, but it isn't JUSTIFIED.

Except none of this was what happened here. Brown didn't step onto the street for half a second, but was walking down the middle, forcing at least one car to drive around him. And he didn't just stand dumbly or tense either.

There are things everyone does every day that are illegal. Being a pedantic asshole about those rules is not justified.

There are many things that are illegal that should be legal. Jaywalking is not one of them. And if you have a law police are within their rights to enforce it. Now they do not have to issue a ticket each time, but apparently to you even telling somebody to get out of the middle of the street is "bullying" and "harassment".

So I Iran the legality of beheading atheists makes doing that justified? The legality of executing people for not being Islamic makes it justified? If there was a law that said 'anyone who posts on Internet forums, or who has ever posted on Internet forums as "Derec"' is persona non grata, and to be shot on sight', your immediate execution is justified?

The law is not a justification.

Brown was jaywalking in an ostensibly safe manner. The report did not indicate that the street was busy or that he was obstructing existing traffic. You claim that the situations presented are qualitatively different yet they are not: their quality of relevance is that neither action endangered drivers, pedestrians, or the flow of traffic.

Finally, telling someone to not be where they are can very much be bullying and harassment, particularly when there's a robbery suspect they could be on the lookout for actively. The culture of poor neighborhoods is to use streets in a way that the denizens of them find most functional. It's actually pretty racist that jaywalking statutes even are imposed on communities with such different cultural values. You make a bi stink about state rights, because ostensibly different states have different values and different ways of life. Well what about neighborhood rights?

 

[Mumbles]

Maybe when enough people stop letting cops treat them like 'bitches', cops will respect people enough to not do it. Cops are servants of the people, not our masters. Their job is to respect people, with no expectations of being respected back.

Good luck with that. Most cops have an automatic filter: compliant citizen = good, non-compliant citizen = thug.

Unfortunately, these police weren't nearly so selective: https://storify.com/deray/ferguson-beginning

 

[Derec]

Unfortunately, these police weren't nearly so selective: https://storify.com/deray/ferguson-beginning

Two things that pop out in those tweets:
- no civilian cars were visible anywhere on any photos of the area. Jarhyn must have been right that nobody drives in that neighborhood! </sarcasm>
- sheer misinformation evident in the tweets that no doubt contributed to the irrational anger that's still going on, long after we have a more accurate picture. For example, Brown wasn't 17 but 18. He wasn't walking to the store, but from a store (that he just robbed). It wasn't an execution.