Michelle Obama is a sexist

[Jolly_Penguin]

Hold up. Who said this?

I would not simply dismiss it as a joke out of hand at first glance, just as I would not simply dismiss any other claim of superiority of a race or gender out of hand.

So your first statement is unqualified and direct. Now there is qualification. If it was a parody response, then ...

Did you actually read my post? Or did you just read that one sentence?

I would not dismiss and excuse it as a joke out of hand at first glance and would want some clarification. The paragraph above the one you quote mined explains exactly what I would look for. There is no contradiction in what I said.

But as has been explained here already, the acceptability of the FLOTUS' joke lays in the power relation between men and women. Given a set up where women are in power, and men aren't, you can make any joke you like.

That is no excuse for sexism. I'm sorry you can't see that. Just as homophobia would be no excuse for homosexuals to go around saying bigotted things about heteros, and just as racism is no excuse for black people being racist. Being the target of bigotry does not excuse your own bigotry. It just doesn't.

 

[rousseau]

At some point you just need to stop making distinctions based on gender. An asshole is an asshole, whether they're male or female. Your private parts do not preclude any type of character trait. There is going to be sexist men and women, and men and women who aren't sexist. But one women being an asshole, or a few women being an asshole is no reason to get up in arms toward women in general.

When it comes to the sexist ones, if you're expecting every person everywhere to be totally rational you need to check some of your assumptions.

And yea, people are going to be a bit naturally biased against men. That's mostly due to us making women our baby making slaves for the last 2000 years. Just let them have their day in the sun.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Did you actually read my post? Or did you just read that one sentence?

I would not dismiss and excuse it as a joke out of hand at first glance and would want some clarification. The paragraph above the one you quote mined explains exactly what I would look for. There is no contradiction in what I said.

But as has been explained here already, the acceptability of the FLOTUS' joke lays in the power relation between men and women. Given a set up where women are in power, and men aren't, you can make any joke you like.

That is no excuse for sexism. I'm sorry you can't see that. Just as homophobia would be no excuse for homosexuals to go around saying bigotted things about heteros, and just as racism is no excuse for black people being racist. Being the target of bigotry does not excuse your own bigotry. It just doesn't.

what bigotry?

Are you saying that Michele Obama is a sexist? That she really believes women are smarter than men and she is setting out subjugating men?

 

[Toni]

I'm confused now. My husband changes lightbulbs on ceiling fixtures because he is taller than I am, but I hold the ladder.

Which of us is the sexist? Word problems confuse me.

Also does it matter if I point out that the lightbulb has burned out? And is it mitigated by the fact that I let him keep the led bulbs which are really too bright?

 

[untermensche]

This whole thread is proof she is right.

 

[Frikki]

No it is a reference to a non shitcock that has a normal relationship to women.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.

Sorry that I am in a loving relationship with a woman and I am not a man child that can't deal with 50% of the human race.

 

[Metaphor]

I'm confused now. My husband changes lightbulbs on ceiling fixtures because he is taller than I am, but I hold the ladder.

Which of us is the sexist? Word problems confuse me.

It's such a shame that men and women have degenerated into such an 'us versus them' mentality, taking and defending sides when the real deal is obvious.

You're both sexist degenerates.

You're the quintessential screeching harpy, nagging and bullying your husband endlessly to perform all the domestic chores while you watch Ellen and eat bon bons. Your husband is obviously a classic sexist pig, not content to merely be taller than you but ascending a ladder as a physical symbol of his emotional and intellectual dominance and his right to 'look down' on you.

 

[credoconsolans]

And for the last half century or so western men have been told they are not as smart as women. But of course you think that kind of sexism is perfectly acceptable, even commendable.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't suppose you realize this, but your posts in this thread are supporting evidence for Michele Obama's jocular claim.

I don't suppose you realize this but resorting to cheap personal attacks shows clearly you have no reasoned arguments to offer. But hey, what else's new?

It's part of the "minorities can mock the dominant majority" thin line.

So Michelle and women can claim that as a gender women are overall smarter than men, while the men who are in charge of the political power, the women's jobs, their households, the law, the courts can smile indulgently and pat them on the head.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So Michelle and women can claim that as a gender women are overall smarter than men, while the men who are in charge of the political power, the women's jobs, their households, the law, the courts can smile indulgently and pat them on the head.

And men who are none of those things can too I suppose.

 

[bigfield]

I should have investigated Obama's original comment more closely. Politico didn't bother to put it in context (i.e. as a joke, not a sincere claim). Otherwise I wouldn't have been so quick to call it female chauvinism.

Women are allowed to make jokes like that because they were oppressed for all of human history. Men are not for the same reason.

The women who live today are not victims of millenia of oppression; it's incorrect to equivocate them with all women who have lived throughout history.

Why would anyone take offence if the First Gentleman of the United States make a joke that "men are smarter than women"? Surely it's just a joke.

 

[bigfield]

So Michelle and women can claim that as a gender women are overall smarter than men, while the men who are in charge of the political power, the women's jobs, their households, the law, the courts can smile indulgently and pat them on the head.

Women are pretty smart to have men looking after all of those things for them.

 

[untermensche]

The women who live today are not victims of millenia of oppression...

Their mothers were psychologically effected by oppression, and their mothers even more, and so on.

To say that they would be no different had that oppression not existed is very generous to the oppressors.

 

[rousseau]

I should have investigated Obama's original comment more closely. Politico didn't bother to put it in context (i.e. as a joke, not a sincere claim). Otherwise I wouldn't have been so quick to call it female chauvinism.

Women are allowed to make jokes like that because they were oppressed for all of human history. Men are not for the same reason.

The women who live today are not victims of millenia of oppression; it's incorrect to equivocate them with all women who have lived throughout history.

Why would anyone take offence if the First Gentleman of the United States make a joke that "men are smarter than women"? Surely it's just a joke.

The oppression is still ongoing. Even if we assume equality in pay and rights women are even still the physically weaker sex and prone to our violence. On the balance of power, men are still ahead, so the jokes flow toward us.

This dynamic is just how people work. Socially, we prop up those who are weak, and pull down those who are powerful. If you don't like it, good luck changing it.

 

[bigfield]

To say that they would be no different had that oppression not existed is very generous to the oppressors.

It's a good thing I did not make that claim, then.

 

[Frikki]

I should have investigated Obama's original comment more closely. Politico didn't bother to put it in context (i.e. as a joke, not a sincere claim). Otherwise I wouldn't have been so quick to call it female chauvinism.

Women are allowed to make jokes like that because they were oppressed for all of human history. Men are not for the same reason.

The women who live today are not victims of millenia of oppression; it's incorrect to equivocate them with all women who have lived throughout history.

Why would anyone take offence if the First Gentleman of the United States make a joke that "men are smarter than women"? Surely it's just a joke.

So are you saying that the reason that there has never been a woman President and that they are severly underrresented in positions of power is not a sign of on going repression?

 

[bigfield]

I should have investigated Obama's original comment more closely. Politico didn't bother to put it in context (i.e. as a joke, not a sincere claim). Otherwise I wouldn't have been so quick to call it female chauvinism.


The women who live today are not victims of millenia of oppression; it's incorrect to equivocate them with all women who have lived throughout history.

Why would anyone take offence if the First Gentleman of the United States make a joke that "men are smarter than women"? Surely it's just a joke.

So are you saying that the reason that there has never been a woman President and that they are severly underrresented in positions of power is not a sign of on going repression?

No, that is not what I am saying.

I simply pointed out the fallacy of false equivocation.

Also: "ongoing repression" is not the same as "millenia of oppression".

 

[KeepTalking]

I should have investigated Obama's original comment more closely. Politico didn't bother to put it in context (i.e. as a joke, not a sincere claim). Otherwise I wouldn't have been so quick to call it female chauvinism.

Even without the context, and recognizing that politico did everything they could possibly do to make the clip as short as possible (11 seconds), it is obvious that she is joking by the expression on her face, and the roll of her eyes as she makes the joke. They clipped Cokie's response of "Well, that goes without saying.", and the audience laughter that makes it even more apparent that she was joking, and that everyone present got the joke, but you don't really need that given the way she delivered the line.

 

[bigfield]

I should have investigated Obama's original comment more closely. Politico didn't bother to put it in context (i.e. as a joke, not a sincere claim). Otherwise I wouldn't have been so quick to call it female chauvinism.

Even without the context, and recognizing that politico did everything they could possibly do to make the clip as short as possible (11 seconds), it is obvious that she is joking by the expression on her face, and the roll of her eyes as she makes the joke. They clipped Cokie's response of "Well, that goes without saying.", and the audience laughter that makes it even more apparent that she was joking, and that everyone present got the joke, but you don't really need that given the way she delivered the line.

I didn't watch the video, either.

Oops.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So what part about this being a joke did you not get. Was it what she said or the laughter after it that makes it hard to understand that this was a joke.

So you're officially on record that it's acceptable for political figures to joke about men being smarter than women?

I'm still trying to figure out just when it was that "The President's wife" became a political figure. I know Hillary likes to think so, but I still don't buy it.

 

[dismal]

I should have investigated Obama's original comment more closely. Politico didn't bother to put it in context (i.e. as a joke, not a sincere claim). Otherwise I wouldn't have been so quick to call it female chauvinism.


The women who live today are not victims of millenia of oppression; it's incorrect to equivocate them with all women who have lived throughout history.

Why would anyone take offence if the First Gentleman of the United States make a joke that "men are smarter than women"? Surely it's just a joke.

The oppression is still ongoing. Even if we assume equality in pay and rights women are even still the physically weaker sex and prone to our violence. On the balance of power, men are still ahead, so the jokes flow toward us.

This dynamic is just how people work. Socially, we prop up those who are weak, and pull down those who are powerful. If you don't like it, good luck changing it.

Men are many times over more likely to be murdered than women.