Mississippi Passes "More Dead Kids Please" bill. Texas responds w/ "hold my beer"

[Loren Pechtel]

Mostly because fundies bully them too much.

What are you basing this assumption on? Have you interacted with any detransitioners? Have you read their stories or bothered to find out anything about it at all?

FFS, at least look into the Keira Bell suit.

Read the research. Or even just this board--it's already been pointed out. Most who detransisition do so because of social pressure, not because they feel they made the wrong choice.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Admitted lack of knowledge is not a convincing basis for a position in my view.

Well, no. I’m aware that many European countries have now reversed their position on “gender affirming” mutilation of minors. That’s because the evidence of long-term benefit is lacking. In short, this is all experimental and these children used as guinea pigs.

Applying that reasoning, no improvements in treatment care would ever be adopted.

You assume that a child with atypical gender behavior needs “treatment”; why? Perhaps if adults quit lying to them their “dysphoria” will go away.

Best to just beat it out of them or send them to Marcus Bachmann's "clinic" for "treatment". Got news for you. They don't "grow out of it".

Well, actually, if left untreated, something over 80% of children with dysphoria DO grow out of it during puberty.

80% grow out of it before reaching puberty. That is, before anything is actually done. By the time it reaches the stage of puberty blockers the grow out of it group has grown out of it, 98% who do puberty blockers end up being trans.

 

[Jarhyn]

Admitted lack of knowledge is not a convincing basis for a position in my view.

Well, no. I’m aware that many European countries have now reversed their position on “gender affirming” mutilation of minors. That’s because the evidence of long-term benefit is lacking. In short, this is all experimental and these children used as guinea pigs.

Applying that reasoning, no improvements in treatment care would ever be adopted.

You assume that a child with atypical gender behavior needs “treatment”; why? Perhaps if adults quit lying to them their “dysphoria” will go away.

Best to just beat it out of them or send them to Marcus Bachmann's "clinic" for "treatment". Got news for you. They don't "grow out of it".

Well, actually, if left untreated, something over 80% of children with dysphoria DO grow out of it during puberty.

80% grow out of it before reaching puberty. That is, before anything is actually done. By the time it reaches the stage of puberty blockers the grow out of it group has grown out of it, 98% who do puberty blockers end up being trans.

I keep coming back to the sneaking suspicion that the 1-5% of vocal, shitty anti-trans folks who use the 2% of desisters to keep the 98% remainder of trans declared indivuduals from accessing blockers are just bitter because they themselves were forced against their objections through a puberty towards something they privately didn't want.

In some ways transition is an existential threat to such people, as this denial, this evil being perpetrated on trans people is exactly one of the things that created the evil person in the first place.

If there is a fundamental drive to reproduce, it can be seen here in the drive to repeat the sins of the past on the people of the future so the people of the future are reflections of the past sinners.

TL;DR: crabs in a bucket.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Jebus... you make it sound like it is a brand of sneakers or jeans that children just have to have to be cool. I don't think anyone on the planet WANTS to be transgendered.

I think perhaps you don't actually understand what social contagion is.

I mean, nobody WANTS to be anorexic, or have dissociative personality disorder, or have repressed memories of ritual satanic child abuse, or to cut themselves... and yet these things have been observed to manifest in clusters, at aberrant levels of prevalence when they've been heavily discussed and reported on among teens. Especially so among teenage girls.

Anorexic: This is a manifestation of the pressure to be thin.

Repressed memories of satanic abuse: Blame the "therapists" that "find" them. It didn't happen.

I can't address the other two.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Evolution also favors those who limit their sex to a smaller member of individuals who are more likely to avoid STIs.

Disagree--until HIV came along STDs weren't going to be a big factor in survival, you were better off risking disease for a chance to pass your genes on.

The pre-HIV lethal STDs were slow killers, they wouldn't stop reproduction.

 

[Bomb#20]

I keep coming back to the sneaking suspicion that the 1-5% of vocal, <predictable expletive deleted> anti-trans folks who use the 2% of desisters to keep the 98% remainder of trans declared indivuduals from accessing blockers are just bitter because they themselves were forced against their objections through a puberty towards something they privately didn't want.

In some ways transition is an existential threat to such people, as this denial, this evil being perpetrated on trans people is exactly one of the things that created the evil person in the first place.

If there is a fundamental drive to reproduce, it can be seen here in the drive to repeat the sins of the past on the people of the future so the people of the future are reflections of the past sinners.

TL;DR: crabs in a bucket.

"The people claiming the defendant isn't a witch are probably witches themselves." - every Witchfinder General ever

 

[Jarhyn]

I keep coming back to the sneaking suspicion that the 1-5% of vocal, <predictable expletive deleted> anti-trans folks who use the 2% of desisters to keep the 98% remainder of trans declared indivuduals from accessing blockers are just bitter because they themselves were forced against their objections through a puberty towards something they privately didn't want.

In some ways transition is an existential threat to such people, as this denial, this evil being perpetrated on trans people is exactly one of the things that created the evil person in the first place.

If there is a fundamental drive to reproduce, it can be seen here in the drive to repeat the sins of the past on the people of the future so the people of the future are reflections of the past sinners.

TL;DR: crabs in a bucket.

"The people claiming the defendant isn't a witch are probably witches themselves." - every Witchfinder General ever

When you can pose any motivation at all beyond hollow appeals to emotion that you yourself cannot explain, to cleave to inaccurate and meaningless sex-essentialist models, you can be sure I'll bend an ear.

As it is, there is a long history of anti-gay lawmakers being discovered doing very gay things.

This thing walks the same as that thing, talks the same as that thing, looks the same as that thing. The two things are bridge partners for fuck sakes. I'm pretty sure they operate on the same basic principle of "masking by rejection".

When you can provide a better explanation as to why all these vocally anti-gay politicians are discovered so frequently with their dick in a boy's ass, and make a case that the rhetoric we see these anti-trans folks spewing is somehow different despite it seeming to come from almost the exact same population, and is very suspiciously similar, come back to us and lay it out, OK?

It is weird you bring up witch finders, when the most notorious witch finders of them all, King James, was a flaming homosexual using his witch finding to hide his buggery.

Trans-alarmists are themselves proclaiming trans people to be evil sexual perverts and violent monsters needing to be put down, all on their own. Methinks they doth protest too much, and take a page from King James (and probably dreaming of being King James's paige).

 

[Emily Lake]

I dunno. Human average lifespan has increased dramatically along with the abundant availability of calorie rich food. Evolution seems to be working pretty well at selection in favor of those who limit their caloric intake and maintain regular physical activity.

I'm not sure that evolution has any part in this. Lifespan beyond reproduction is just whipped cream. And there are a LOT of fatty fatty boombalatties out there that have kids before they croak.

Evolution does favor the survival of the genetic lines of those who fuck in particular manners and who form bonds with others to better ensure the survival of offspring. There is a school of thought that the presence of non-reproducing members of a family/social group, including non- heterosexuals increases the chance for survival of the young in a group.

Non-reproducing members help to increase the survival rate of the offspring of the reproducing members... but the genetic profiles of those non-reproducing members are lost in the process.

Evolution also favors those who limit their sex to a smaller member of individuals who are more likely to avoid STIs.

Not sure this is a given. Seems sensible on the surface, but unless you can demonstrate for example, that monogamous couples in the middle ages had many more kids than prostitutes... Or you can show that the average arab of no particular status had more kids than the sultan with his harem... I think you're just making assumptions

 

[Emily Lake]

I guess my point is that your constant indignance over the audacity of others to seek to halt modifications to their body is simply vapid

And your constant insistence that puberty is somehow a "choice" and is being "forced" on kids is the inane ramblings of a fantasist.

 

[Emily Lake]

Anne Fausto-Sterling herself stated that she was being provocative by proposing those three intersex conditions as additional genders. Those three conditions may be called mixed-gender states, and trans people may also be called mixed gender, with their somatic and psychological genders being mismatched.

Realistically, those three "additional genders" are at the very best ambiguous sex expressions.

The brain is the LEAST sexually dimorphic organ in the human body, well behind our somatic organs, and of course miles away from our reproductive organs. "Psychological gender" is akin to the concept of a soul; it's a reflection of someone's beliefs based on a mind-body duality premise.

 

[Emily Lake]

People generally know the effects of the adrenal gland and the side effects of it firing.

ORLY? Please elaborate for us, without copy-pastaing wikipedia. Seeing as it's so easy to understand.

 

[Jarhyn]

I guess my point is that your constant indignance over the audacity of others to seek to halt modifications to their body is simply vapid

And your constant insistence that puberty is somehow a "choice" and is being "forced" on kids is the inane ramblings of a fantasist.

It's a choice. it meets the most basic and primitive definitions of choice. You can prevent puberty by preventing the actions of certain hormones in the body, namely testosterones, estrogens, and to a lesser extent progesterones.

Thus it is a choice. A can happen, B can happen, Both can happen, and it can happen that Neither do.

It's the insane ramblings of a fanaticism to say that this is not absolutely a choice.

And here the topic is "the ethical failings of those who would prevent people from making that choice."

We have seen the consequences of making the choice in every permutation.

None of them are life threatening, and all of them can lead to happy lives... For the people that choose them, or didn't care to the point of default.

Puberty IS a choice, made by either taking a pill or not taking a pill, and later on by retaining ones gonads or removing them.

You would deny them the right to choose what grows inside their bodies and how it affects their bodies. It reminds me of something but I can't quite put my finger on it*.

*This is a lie, and I will absolutely spell it out of certain parties play at ignorance.

The brain is highly a sexually polymorphic organ btw, because the brain is the organ whose fine structures have the most severe effects due to their difference in morphology.

Let's imagine three computers: computer A has a monitory and a keyboard and a mouse, and an x86 processor.

Computer B has an exact carbon copy of the first, but with a single transistor in the "jump to address if condition register is zero" instruction modified such that it actually performs a jump if LESS than zero.

Computer B has a dot matrix printer that prints every frame rendered rather than a monitor, no mouse, a DVORAK keyboard, and a completely different operating system on the hard drive.

Tell me, which computer has the most significant difference to computer A: is it computer B or computer C?

 

[Emily Lake]

knowing what they want done with their adrenals or even being able to locate their adrenal glands on an anatomic diagram

People generally know the effects of the adrenal gland and the side effects of it firing.

For some people, those side effects are life threatening, and problematic, so of course they need to be given some personal oversight on whether they actually allow that to take place at any given moment.

This is not predicated on the ability to point out the gland or even distinctly communicate their needs.

It is up to the medical and mental health professionals to help people understand their goals and the paths to them, and what obstacles exist on that path.

It is a bad argument against giving people leverage over the systems which create their experiences, especially when the experiences their systems create include "abruptly dying".

I don't mean this unkindly but I don't think you know what your adrenal glands so or are only focused on one function. You actually cannot survive without at least one functional adrenal gland without taking supplements for the rest of your life.

Adrenal glands secrete hormones essential for metabolism, regulation of blood pressure, and sodium and glucose homeostasis (stability). Hypo- or hypersecretion of these hormones is life threatening.

Your medulla is the inner part of your adrenal gland, and it releases the hormones adrenaline (epinephrine) and noradrenaline (norepinephrine). These hormones help control your blood pressure, heart rate, sweating and other activities that are also regulated by your sympathetic nervous system. The cortex is the outer part of your adrenal gland, and it releases corticosteroid and mineralocorticoid hormones. The adrenal cortex also stimulates the production of small amounts of male sex steroid hormones (androgenic steroids).

Adrenal glands interact with your hypothalamus, pituitary gland, kidneys and sympathetic nervous system.

Aw dammit, you gave him the answers!

That's a lot more than I realized. I know the adrenal does a LOT of stuff, but most of my knowledge is specific to the interaction between the pituitary and the adrenal during puberty. Being back-up guardian for a kid with Kallman Syndrome caused me to learn a lot more about pubertal function that I ever expected.

 

[Emily Lake]

With testosterone and estrogen, we know the effects of exposure. We have seen those effects, and the effects of having control over them, and those effects are broadly positive.

We know SOME of the effects of testosterone and estrogen ON THE BODIES THAT DEVELOPED TO PROCESS THEM AT THOSE LEVELS.

We know very little about the effects of cross-sex hormones, and what we do know indicates an increase in risk for many illnesses, including heart attack and stroke, as well as things like vaginal atrophy and earlier onset of dementia.

 

[Emily Lake]

WaPo choosing to report on their study using such a misleading headline was irresponsible. (And that's giving WaPo the benefit of the doubt -- they may have deliberately intended GD teenagers to take the study to mean transitioning will probably make them happier. Odds are they believe that's what their study shows. I doubt WaPo editors would be competent to do peer-reviews at a science journal.)

I think you're being generous. I doubt that WaPo even understands the weaknesses of the survey, or have even the slightest clue that they're communicating biased information. I don't think they're smart enough to figure that out.

 

[Emily Lake]

I'm suggesting removals of gonads, for those who ask for that, because some people want it, and you have no right to tell them no.

That does not threaten life or health.

It bloody well fucking DOES threaten life and health!

FFS, do you even have the vaguest fucking idea why hysterectomies are often denied for women? Or why even when a hysterectomy is done for medical reasons, the removal of ovaries is an absolute last resort and only occurs if there's something very wrong? Because removal of those gonads directly contributes to poor health and increased risk. Seriously, WTAF. Do you even fucking know why menopausal women take estrogen supplements?

My god, at least learn some real fucking science to supplement your fantasy.

 

[Emily Lake]

In families with a history of breast or prostate cancer, I'm fairly certain preemptive removals are done on a fairly regular basis.

No, it is not. It's done very, very rarely. Angelina Jolie's voluntary mastectomy was something she could only get because she's famous. It is NOT something that is done regularly, not at all. And seriously, removal of breasts in someone past childbearing age has the LEAST negative side effects. Removal of the prostate has larger consequences than your fantasy-land imagining has envisioned.

You really should try living in the real world once in a while. It's actually kind of nice here.

 

[Emily Lake]

Military research into ways to control adrenal response to stressors is horrifying.

Absolutely terrifying. Like Mengele level fucked up.

 

[Emily Lake]

Military research into ways to control adrenal response to stressors is horrifying.

We can at least agree on that. I'm fairly certain the technologies that would construct the application already exist and are past clinical trial. The only absent elements are specific connection to that part of the brain, and linkage of the "throttle" to a given, internally controllable... I'm unsure of a word for it. "Soma"?

The former is merely "stick it there, instead of here, with this electrochemical link rather than that other link, but how do I safely do the sticking in this new brain region?"

The latter is merely picking something that works for the user, which can be determined arbitrarily from a variety of mechanisms or triggers already in use in similar technology

I'd say we're going to hear about some ill-advised experiment exposed in that in the next 15-20 years that will have happened in only 5-10 years.

Do you ever base your posts on reality, or are they all based on what you imagine should be the case?

I mean, you're "fairly certain" based on what? Some science fiction you read once?

 

[Jarhyn]

With testosterone and estrogen, we know the effects of exposure. We have seen those effects, and the effects of having control over them, and those effects are broadly positive.

We know SOME of the effects of testosterone and estrogen ON THE BODIES THAT DEVELOPED TO PROCESS THEM AT THOSE LEVELS.

We know very little about the effects of cross-sex hormones, and what we do know indicates an increase in risk for many illnesses, including heart attack and stroke, as well as things like vaginal atrophy and earlier onset of dementia.

And also the effects on the bodies where their factories were removed.

We absolutely know the effect of the various sex hormones because we have observed the effects of those hormones on people since people had those hormones as a part of their biology.

We know the effects of testosterone because the fact is, we have centuries of documentation on the different experiences between people with testicles and eunuchs, at various ages of becoming eunuchs.

We know those effects and the fact is that the people taking these hormones know the effect.

You may take some great issue and insult from the fact that some people do not want ovaries or testicles, and you may wish to manufacture all sorts of reasons to deny them access, but we know the effects of an absence of sex hormones on the human body, too.

The fact is, I'm going to take your claims that people who have ovaries have improved health and outcomes and file it in the circular file because the same claim has been made to defend circumcisions and is just as spurious.

It's a claim based on fear, not even of the unknown, but of things you are willfully ignorant of.