Mississippi Passes "More Dead Kids Please" bill. Texas responds w/ "hold my beer"

[Jarhyn]

There is a higher chance you will be assaulted or harassed sexually by a woman in a bathroom than there is of you ever being sexually assaulted or harassed by a trans woman.

Based on what? More of your wishes?

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Actual data from UK shows that transwomen have a higher rate of sexual offenses than men in general.

MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis). Here is the number compared with figures for sex offending rates in men and women over the same period.
Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

Again, this is a bogus statistic only accomplished from two elements:
By counting non-hormonally modified trans women as "trans women" and ignoring that trans women represent 1-2% of the population and are .1% of criminals, even counting those who will not actually pursue HRT or orchiectomy.

 

[Jarhyn]

I know that you think that being concerned about naked strangers with penises in a women's only space is the same thing as racism but it isn't.

In this thread, I think it's apparent that Toni is conflating "naked strangers" with "fully clothed strangers", "naked women" with "fully clothed women", and conflating "known trans people with known hormonal status" with "strangers" depending on the context.

 

[Emily Lake]

You have not even thus far been able to DEFINE "woman" or "man" in a way that actually references something which you cannot move a goalpost under.

Women are those members of the human species who have a reproductive anatomy that has evolved to support the production of large gametes, regardless of whether they actually produce those gametes, and regardless of whether that reproductive anatomy is 100% complete.

Men are those members of the human species who have a reproductive anatomy that has evolved to support the production of small gametes, regardless of whether they actually produce those gametes, and regardless of whether that reproductive anatomy is 100% complete.

 

[Jarhyn]

and all with ZERO requirement for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria or any kind of treatment at all

And so instead of pushing requirements for diagnosis and treatment, you simultaneously pursue both banning treatment and then crying wolf (literally).

 

[Emily Lake]

I know that you think that being concerned about naked strangers with penises in a women's only space is the same thing as racism but it isn't.

In this thread, I think it's apparent that Toni is conflating "naked strangers" with "fully clothed strangers", "naked women" with "fully clothed women", and conflating "known trans people with known hormonal status" with "strangers" depending on the context.

Are you expecting women to get to personally know every single transwoman on the planet?

 

[Emily Lake]

and all with ZERO requirement for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria or any kind of treatment at all

And so instead of pushing requirements for diagnosis and treatment, you simultaneously pursue both banning treatment and then crying wolf (literally).

Please stop intentionally misrepresenting my position.

 

[Jarhyn]

I know that you think that being concerned about naked strangers with penises in a women's only space is the same thing as racism but it isn't.

In this thread, I think it's apparent that Toni is conflating "naked strangers" with "fully clothed strangers", "naked women" with "fully clothed women", and conflating "known trans people with known hormonal status" with "strangers" depending on the context.

Are you expecting women to get to personally know every single transwoman on the planet?

Nope. I do, however expect people to know on some personal level the trans people at their school, at their work, on their sports team, and in their prison.

In situations where people are actually expected to interact with naked strangers (which is VERY FEW), I have already bent towards a compromise of a third space for "anyone who wants a private individual space" being required.

 

[Jarhyn]

and all with ZERO requirement for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria or any kind of treatment at all

And so instead of pushing requirements for diagnosis and treatment, you simultaneously pursue both banning treatment and then crying wolf (literally).

Please stop intentionally misrepresenting my position.

So you WOULD accept it if there were requirements for diagnosis and treatment?

Or you don't wish to pursue banning access to transitional medicine?

Because last I knew you were against affording kids the right to blockers. That's "banning transitional medicine".

And earlier in the thread, you called trans women wolves.

Instead, you complain that there aren't requirements for diagnosis and treatment with no actual admission that you would accept it even if there were, and at the same time fighting tooth and nail the desires of those who seek diagnosis and treatment!

My position has been "yes please requirements for diagnosis and treatment", so either you are arguing PAST me, or you are arguing in bad faith with a bait-and-switch in the wings.

 

[Toni]

I know that you think that being concerned about naked strangers with penises in a women's only space is the same thing as racism but it isn't.

In this thread, I think it's apparent that Toni is conflating "naked strangers" with "fully clothed strangers", "naked women" with "fully clothed women", and conflating "known trans people with known hormonal status" with "strangers" depending on the context.

Wut?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I would also like to see rapes stopped.

I just don't see that happening by forcing folks wearing dresses and even less physically capable than Emily being forced into a room full of people who are, as you describe, physically capable of overpowering them.

The issue here is that this isn't a discussion ABOUT "men, on average."

This is a discussion specifically about trans women, and the rights of trans women, and discussing what "men" are capable of physically is not a discussion about

Exactly. Rape is a bad thing, we should be trying to prevent it.

However, just because something appears to be of benefit doesn't mean it is. "Women" signs are security theater, not actual security. Security theater can be of use when you're dealing with stupid criminals, it just forces intelligent ones to plan a bit more.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You also have not provided any way at all fir women in a locker room to distinguish between those who are women but still have a penis and those who are potentially a threat.

Look, very few gay men are of threat to women in a locker room. That still does not mean that all women will be comfortable with gay men sharing a locker room with them, particularly if they do not know them. Because you really can’t tell just by looking.

And you haven't provided any means by which a woman is supposed to identify the rapist in drag.

Hint: Criminals size up their targets, they rarely attack total unknowns.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I keep wondering what could happen to a trans woman with male parts wearing a dress in a men's room

There is some risk of running into a rabidly zealous religious nutball who beats them up. But so far as I can tell, the overwhelming vast majority of men do not care if a transwoman shows up in the men's room. It's a guy in a dress, nobody actually cares. Other males are relatively low risk to men in terms of physical strength. Even small effeminate males have a physical advantage over the majority of women.

In blue areas it's no problem. In red areas it could prove quite dangerous.

Based on...?

You really have to fucking ask?

And Loren is wrong. It's still an issue in blue areas, too. Less of an issue, but still an issue.

This is an example of you not really understanding what Emily was saying. She was saying exactly what you are saying: It will also be a problem in blue states.

And it's something your side completely ignores. You're effectively saying you can't safely be trans in a red state. Outlaw it by vigilante rather than by law.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

At that point the solution is to offer an ID card in lieu of "inspections" that would be demanded by Karens otherwise, or to say "if they aren't pulling their genitals out just step the fuck off".

Yup, I think that's the best solution until society doesn't get so uptight about such things. Photo ID that identifies them as trans, no name or address but it has a 2D barcode (not a QR code, it doesn't have the domain embedded in it) that can be used to verify it. (And I would do the same thing for all ID. The government releases a free ID-scanner app, when an ID is scanned it pulls up the database photo and whatever public information is on the ID--not all the information associated with the ID. It would be a general standard that all ID would follow--the first few characters identify the institution to direct it to, the institution provides the rest.)

 

[lostone]

I keep wondering what could happen to a trans woman with male parts wearing a dress in a men's room

There is some risk of running into a rabidly zealous religious nutball who beats them up. But so far as I can tell, the overwhelming vast majority of men do not care if a transwoman shows up in the men's room. It's a guy in a dress, nobody actually cares. Other males are relatively low risk to men in terms of physical strength. Even small effeminate males have a physical advantage over the majority of women.

In blue areas it's no problem. In red areas it could prove quite dangerous.

Based on...?

You really have to fucking ask?

And Loren is wrong. It's still an issue in blue areas, too. Less of an issue, but still an issue.

This is an example of you not really understanding what Emily was saying. She was saying exactly what you are saying: It will also be a problem in blue states.

And it's something your side completely ignores. You're effectively saying you can't safely be trans in a red state. Outlaw it by vigilante rather than by law.

No one is supporting vigilantism. We are merely saying that it, and sexual aggression, does exist. That is by no means the same as supporting it. You cannot be safely trans in a red state until red states take strong measures to protect trans people.

 

[Jarhyn]

At that point the solution is to offer an ID card in lieu of "inspections" that would be demanded by Karens otherwise, or to say "if they aren't pulling their genitals out just step the fuck off".

Yup, I think that's the best solution until society doesn't get so uptight about such things. Photo ID that identifies them as trans, no name or address but it has a 2D barcode (not a QR code, it doesn't have the domain embedded in it) that can be used to verify it. (And I would do the same thing for all ID. The government releases a free ID-scanner app, when an ID is scanned it pulls up the database photo and whatever public information is on the ID--not all the information associated with the ID. It would be a general standard that all ID would follow--the first few characters identify the institution to direct it to, the institution provides the rest.)

I would prefer to change the markers on normal IDs to specifically state T+/T-, and S+/S-, wherein T- and S- are allowed to legally be registered as T+ and S+, but not the reverse (to protect anonymity).

This way, not even CIS people necessarily have their genitals outed to each other if they don't want to be, or unless it actually matters in some real way.

This way, trans people are not even identified specifically as trans.

 

[Rhea]

It is NOT reasonable to expect women to spend time examining a stranger's genitals in order to conduct a risk assessment.

No, it certainly isn't. What's unreasonable is for self absorbed people with an agenda demanding your acquiescence.

You women don't have to put up with that bullshit from men. You just don't. There's a nearly identical facility in the next room. Everyone has a place to pee or whatever. Expecting women to do a background check or whatever is ridiculous.

Also, nobody ever needs to show anybody else their genitalia in public outside a hospital. Gyms and public pools are completely optional. It's different when the issue is needing a pee or feminine hygiene issues or something. There's always a restroom stall with a door for such.
Tom

I understand that you mean to be supportive here but have you read the newspapers lately?

I thought Tom was to be supportive here. I read thst as,

“You women don't have to put up with that bullshit from men. You just don't. There's a nearly identical facility in the next room.”

“You women should not have to put up with that bullshit from men. You just shouldn’t have to. There's a nearly identical facility in the next room for people so that you aren’t forced to put up with that bullshit.”

Did I read that wrong? I thought it was, “yeah! Listen to the women on this! They have a point!”

 

[Toni]

You also have not provided any way at all fir women in a locker room to distinguish between those who are women but still have a penis and those who are potentially a threat.

Look, very few gay men are of threat to women in a locker room. That still does not mean that all women will be comfortable with gay men sharing a locker room with them, particularly if they do not know them. Because you really can’t tell just by looking.

And you haven't provided any means by which a woman is supposed to identify the rapist in drag.

Hint: Criminals size up their targets, they rarely attack total unknowns.

Ffs Loren. How do you think drag works in a shower?

And why the fuck do you think it’s my problem to solve all unreasonable demands made upon women by men? Yes, I wrote men because that’s who, in this thread, are insisting that it’s not a problem for women to deal with naked strangers with penises in wimen’s locker rooms.

This reads to me as another way to discourage women from having equal access to athletic facilities . And control of our own lives. Which doesn’t bother you one single bit.

 

[Jarhyn]

I know that you think that being concerned about naked strangers with penises in a women's only space is the same thing as racism but it isn't.

In this thread, I think it's apparent that Toni is conflating "naked strangers" with "fully clothed strangers", "naked women" with "fully clothed women", and conflating "known trans people with known hormonal status" with "strangers" depending on the context.

Wut?

Exactly what I said.

Actually read the post you responded to, maybe? Wherein I point out that in prisons, sports, and schools, it's not "strangers", and in public restrooms it is not "naked" anyone, and I already carved out places with public shower facilities as deserving a mandate for a third, singleton option.

 

[Toni]

It is NOT reasonable to expect women to spend time examining a stranger's genitals in order to conduct a risk assessment.

No, it certainly isn't. What's unreasonable is for self absorbed people with an agenda demanding your acquiescence.

You women don't have to put up with that bullshit from men. You just don't. There's a nearly identical facility in the next room. Everyone has a place to pee or whatever. Expecting women to do a background check or whatever is ridiculous.

Also, nobody ever needs to show anybody else their genitalia in public outside a hospital. Gyms and public pools are completely optional. It's different when the issue is needing a pee or feminine hygiene issues or something. There's always a restroom stall with a door for such.
Tom

I understand that you mean to be supportive here but have you read the newspapers lately?

I thought Tom was to be supportive here. I read thst as,

“You women don't have to put up with that bullshit from men. You just don't. There's a nearly identical facility in the next room.”

“You women should not have to put up with that bullshit from men. You just shouldn’t have to. There's a nearly identical facility in the next room for people so that you aren’t forced to put up with that bullshit.”

Did I read that wrong? I thought it was, “yeah! Listen to the women on this! They have a point!”

What I wanted was to call attention to all the ways that women’s health and safety is under attack/being compromised today. Right now.

 

[Rhea]

If Emily wants to claim trans women don't belong, she has to find a reason to actual exclude them.

Because they are MALE. They are NOT female. These spaces are separated on the basis of SEX, not the basis of BELIEF.

I disagree with you on this part, Emily. For me it’s because they have not completed a transition and therefore represent the people women are trained all their lives that we have to avoid or be at fault for our own assault.

Once a trans woman has fully transitioned, it is not my belief that they represent this threat any more.

I am fully in support of trans women who have fully transitioned being completely free to use women’s spaces for all the same reasons that other women use them. And I am fully in support of trans women who have not transitioned being provided with a space safe from men, where they can, if they wish, use an ID card system or a testicle inspection to tell the difference.

I am not in support of women in shelters who have been traumatized by penises being forced to cohabit with penises before they can heal from their trauma.

Jarhyn does not appear to have any understanding of what life is like for women. And I find insulting his arrogant claim that women should just cast aside a lifetime of danger management in favor of asking if a penis is accompanied by a scrotum. Of insisting that women let the danger get very very close when they are most vulnerable before making a judgment about protecting themselves.

Emily does not appear to have any understanding of how gender identity is developed independently of genitals. And it is insulting that she claims gender must be some born-in attribute that is never disphoric or ambiguous just because she doesn’t understand it. Or that trtans people do not face extreme danger themselves.