Morality in Bible stories that you don't understand

[Learner]

70 years per generation might be normal in early Genesis, but not later...

The main problems with the gospel genealogies

Here is an excerpt from a book I wrote: https://guide4christmas.com/genealogies/ There are a few prophecies the genealogies fulfil (Messiah would be a descendent of Abraham, King David, and governor Zerubbabel and his father Shealtiel) and besides that the genealogies are mostly different and...

iidb.org

e.g. in Luke's genealogies the average generation is 22-26 years.

For those interested....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

The gospel genealogies thread link I mentioned would be good place for this discussion. Also there are 4 major issues with the genealogies - but most places just focus on the conflicting fathers of Joseph. (and can claim one is talking about Mary's father) - and some talk about the conflicting son of King David - but the other two major problems are the father of Shealtiel and the son of Zerubbabel.

Hi ex, not sure why you think the "intention" of the authors (beyond simple plain reasoning on their part) was to "display and allow" in the scriptures 22-26 years as the average age in Luke's genealogies. Defeating the object, so to speak, to remain there, and not be omitted. A theist could also suggest the blame for such errors could have been implemented from deliberate sabotage by anti-Gospel groups, which has been attempted by the gnostics for example. However... these issues you highlight, based rather upon, (and rightly) a little lack of information, not being quite clear as to why these genealogies don't seem to be a problem for the authors. By this I would say, they had good reason NOT to omit or "correct" the error as you put it, in either of the the genealogies, because they weren't errors, just a misunderstanding from our reading of the texts.

(You got my attention, I'll discuss further on the Genealogy thread )

 

[Learner]

Exodus 21:20–21:
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property..."

Really??

( I covered this somewhere before)

Really, yes, but not quite in it's entirety - you are implying a different picture without the verses below:

Exodus 21:22-27

The earlier verses say that the owner of the slave is not to be punished.... verses 22-25 don't seem to be about slaves. Verses 26-27 just talk about letting the slave go free and it only talks about for the slave losing an eye or a tooth. If you kill your slave quickly then it just says you would be "punished" but probably not the regular punishment for murder which is death.

You'd have to demonstrate how this doesn't mean 'there's the penalty of death for killing a slave'. Otherwise we're going to continue to be at opposite ends to viewing the texts.

It was a common understanding to let slaves go after they've served a time... as Bond servants.

Exodus 21 :2
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

 

[Learner]

Paul Williams meets young challenging Christian (Siiig)

 

[excreationist]

You'd have to demonstrate how this doesn't mean 'there's the penalty of death for killing a slave'. Otherwise we're going to continue to be at opposite ends to viewing the texts.

Normally the penalty is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth - but this isn't the case for hurting slaves (Exodus 21:22-27). So that implies it also isn't a life for a life. The slave surviving for a day or two results in no penalty which goes against the idea of being hurt based on the injuries you inflict.

It was a common understanding to let slaves go after they've served a time... as Bond servants.

Exodus 21 :2
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

It says "If you buy a Hebrew servant"... also in the NIV in that chapter there are different words for "servant" and "slave".

 

[Thomas II]

 

[excreationist]

"How the Bible was changed..."

I didn't watch much of the video but here are some of my favourite examples of places where the Bible was changed -
This involves the 2011 version of the NIV - like my upside down version (that I received sealed while in a mental ward) - the same version was used at the conservative church I used to go to (they were even against the ordination of women)


Post #394 - about the trinity....

Mark 16 [after the women fled the tomb]

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 16 - New International Version

Jesus Has Risen - When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb and they asked each other, “Who will roll...

www.biblegateway.com

NIV note: [The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]

John 8 [let he who is without sin cast the first stone]

Bible Gateway passage: John 7 - New International Version

Jesus Goes to the Festival of Tabernacles - After this, Jesus went around in Galilee. He did not want to go about in Judea because the Jewish leaders there were looking for a way to kill him. But when the Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near, Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go...

www.biblegateway.com

NIV note: [The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]

My upside-down Bible would normally have the words of Jesus in red, but not for the start of John 8 - instead it is in black italics.

 

[Learner]

You'd have to demonstrate how this doesn't mean 'there's the penalty of death for killing a slave'. Otherwise we're going to continue to be at opposite ends to viewing the texts.

Normally the penalty is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth - but this isn't the case for hurting slaves (Exodus 21:22-27). So that implies it also isn't a life for a life. The slave surviving for a day or two results in no penalty which goes against the idea of being hurt based on the injuries you inflict.

It was a common understanding to let slaves go after they've served a time... as Bond servants.

Exodus 21 :2
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

It says "If you buy a Hebrew servant"... also in the NIV in that chapter there are different words for "servant" and "slave".

That is an interesting point, well spotted.

A witness (in context) for Exodus in Deutronmy 24:14-22:


14 Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:

15 At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the Lord, and it be sin unto thee.

16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

17 Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:

18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the Lord thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

19 When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

20 When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

21 When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

22 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

 

[excreationist]

Learner:
Those verses don't mention servants or slaves (except for saying the Israelites were slaves). I prefer NIV/NIRV (NIRV uses plainer language) I'm not sure what some of those words mean - boughs? raiment? sheaf? (though I could find out)

 

[Thomas II]

Pete Enns (on living with doubt)

 

[DBT]

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

 

[Thomas II]

 

[Thomas II]

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

Yeah, that's YHWH!

 

[excreationist]

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

Check this out:

https://brutal-bible.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/mp3/grape_stomper.mp3

Isaiah 63:2-6
New International Reader's Version

2 Why are your clothes red?
They look as if you have been stomping
on grapes in a winepress.

3 The Lord answers, “I have been stomping on the nations
as if they were grapes.
No one was there to help me.
I walked all over the nations because I was angry.
That is why I stomped on them.
Their blood splashed all over my clothes.
So my clothes were stained bright red.
4 I decided it was time to pay back Israel’s enemies.
The year for me to set my people free had come.
5 I looked around, but no one was there to help me.
I was shocked that no one gave me any help.
So I used my own power to save my people.
I had the strength to do it because I was angry.
6 I walked all over the nations because I was angry with them.
I made them drink from the cup of my great anger.
I poured out their blood on the ground.”

 

[excreationist]

About hell etc

Here is a similar thing in depth:

Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Why hell is destruction, not eternal torment. Absolute Biblical proof of conditional immortality. What was taught in the Old Testament? What did Judaism teach? In-depth discussion on Conditional Immortality, Annihilationism, Traditionalism, and more! Here are the answers/Scriptures that you...

www.jewishnotgreek.com

You can watch the movie "Hell and Mr Fudge" for free..... a key part is 1hr 20min 37secs about "the immortal soul" (click "Watch on YouTube")

 

[DBT]

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

Check this out:

https://brutal-bible.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/mp3/grape_stomper.mp3

Isaiah 63:2-6
New International Reader's Version

2 Why are your clothes red?
They look as if you have been stomping
on grapes in a winepress.

3 The Lord answers, “I have been stomping on the nations
as if they were grapes.
No one was there to help me.
I walked all over the nations because I was angry.
That is why I stomped on them.
Their blood splashed all over my clothes.
So my clothes were stained bright red.
4 I decided it was time to pay back Israel’s enemies.
The year for me to set my people free had come.
5 I looked around, but no one was there to help me.
I was shocked that no one gave me any help.
So I used my own power to save my people.
I had the strength to do it because I was angry.
6 I walked all over the nations because I was angry with them.
I made them drink from the cup of my great anger.
I poured out their blood on the ground.”

The God of Love.

 

[excreationist]

The God of Love.

Tough love?

 

[DBT]

The God of Love.

Tough love?

The Love of Evil, apparently.

 

[Thomas II]

The God of Love.

Tough love?

The Love of Evil, apparently.

Child sacrifice is not "tough love". It is EVIL!

 

[Thomas II]

Renly Brandell
Two Decades of Studying Christianity, Psychology.Author has 73 answers and 461.9K answer viewsUpdated 6y
Oh, no. Now you’ve gotten me started. I guess it’s time to write for half an hour on my favorite subject: Yahweh’s narcissistic, murderous, hateful and overall idiotic tendencies. This is gonna be fun.

• Deuteronomy 22:28–29; God’s punishment for the raping of a virgin is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver and marry her for life. The rapist was seen as ruining someone else’s property, not ruining a young girl’s life. Forcing a girl to marry her rapist and have her father accept some money as compensation is disgusting.
• 2 Samuel 7:11; God, through Nathan, says he is going to punish David’s affair with Bathsheba by making all of David’s wives prostitutes. God making David’s wives prostitutes, despite what His own law said, is not moral.
• Leviticus 26:29; God describes how he will punish people by making them eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters. Any God threatening to force people into cannibalism on their family is not moral.
• Joshua 6:20–21; God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men, women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys”. C’mon. Ruthlessly murdering all the women and children in a city is not moral.
• Deuteronomy 2:32–35; God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. Later in chapter 3:3–7, God commands they do the same to the city of Bashan. Killing children ain’t moral, dude.
• 1 Numbers 31:7–18; God decides to not kill everyone this time. This time, He commands the Israelites to kill all the Midianites except the virgins, whom they will take as spoils of war. Killing everyone besides virgins and using them as sex slaves isn’t moral.
• Genesis 7:21–23; God drowns the entire population of the earth (except for Noah and his family): men, women, and children, both born and unborn, because they were “evil”. I don’t know how unborn children could be evil, but whatever. Killing the entire population of earth, including innocent babies, is not moral.
• Judges 11:30–39; Jephthah burns his daughter alive as a sacrificial offering for God’s favor in killing the Ammonites. Jephthah is crazy for burning his daughter alive and God is crazy for allowing it. Child sacrifice is not moral.
• Deuteronomy 21:18–21; God demands we kill disobedient teenagers. Stoning disobedient children to death is not moral.
• Exodus 21:20–21, Colossians 3:22–24, Ephesians 6:5, 1 Peter 2:18; God legitimizes slavery by saying it’s okay to own slaves and to beat them. Slaves are told to obey their masters just as they would obey Jesus, even if their masters are harsh. God blatantly supports slavery. Supporting slavery is not moral.

There’s plenty more, but here’s a pretty solid list to start! Thanks for the interesting question, mate.

 

[Thomas II]