• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Morality in Bible stories that you don't understand

The Day and Hour Unknown (Matthew 24:36)​

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father."

If Jesus is God, how could he not know?
 
Only the Gospel of John suggests Jesus was God in the flesh. The other Gospels, Mark especially, make Jesus much more human.
 
Psalms 137:9

Psalm 137​

1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
2 There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
3 for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord
while in a foreign land?
5 If I forget you, Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill.
6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.
7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

:oops:

 
Thomas II said:
Jesus asked three times...No answer...
Click to expand...
Your prayer is important to us, and has been placed in a queue. Please hold for the next available God. Estimated wait times are currently between three and four thousand years. If you would prefer not to hold, please hang up and submit your prayer via our website at www.skydaddy.com.il
 
Politesse said:
Thomas II said:
Question: Did Jesus ask "the Father" for mercy, while he was praying at Gethsemane?
Click to expand...
No one but the man himself could possibly know what he said while alone in a grove.
Click to expand...
Unless, of course, there exists an omnicognisant being, in which case anyone that that being chooses to tell will know.

An all seeing God is the ultimate surveillance system.
 
bilby said:
Politesse said:
Thomas II said:
Question: Did Jesus ask "the Father" for mercy, while he was praying at Gethsemane?
Click to expand...
No one but the man himself could possibly know what he said while alone in a grove.
Click to expand...
Unless, of course, there exists an omnicognisant being, in which case anyone that that being chooses to tell will know.

An all seeing God is the ultimate surveillance system.
Click to expand...
Do you find that to be a plausible explanation, bilby?
 
Politesse said:
bilby said:
Politesse said:
Thomas II said:
Question: Did Jesus ask "the Father" for mercy, while he was praying at Gethsemane?
Click to expand...
No one but the man himself could possibly know what he said while alone in a grove.
Click to expand...
Unless, of course, there exists an omnicognisant being, in which case anyone that that being chooses to tell will know.

An all seeing God is the ultimate surveillance system.
Click to expand...
Do you find that to be a plausible explanation, bilby?
Click to expand...
Within the structure of the story, absolutely.

Obviously the whole thing is fiction, but fiction isn't anarchy. If Captain Kirk is on the Enterprise, and he has no shuttle craft available, and needs to get to the planet his ship is orbiting, a plausible solution to his problem is that he beams down. That beaming down isn't possible in reality has no bearing on its plausibility within the fictional framework of the Trek universe, where it's an important premise in many stories. Similarly, an all seeing God is a central character in the Bibleverse.

If we accept the existence of God, then yes, it's a plausible explanation. If we don't, then the whole business is just light entertainment, and the idea that the audience cannot know what an actor says, when he's alone on stage, is itself nonsensical.
 
The gospels aren't generally written from an Omniscient Narrator perspective, though. That and the temptation in the desert scene are the only stories that take place out of sight from the disciples.

If it's supposed to be God writing, why don't we get little interludes about the heavenly court looking down at all the hubbub and commentating, as per the Iliad or the Book of Job?
 
bilby said:
Thomas II said:
Jesus asked three times...No answer...
Click to expand...
Your prayer is important to us, and has been placed in a queue. Please hold for the next available God. Estimated wait times are currently between three and four thousand years. If you would prefer not to hold, please hang up and submit your prayer via our website at www.skydaddy.com.il
Click to expand...
I see what you mean...No wonder Jesus felt ignored (abandoned) by "his Father". It has a very Yahwistic feel to it.. Nothing like the aroma of blood and death...That constant need of sacrifice...
 
Question: Why the cannibalistic need to eat his body and drink his blood?
In John 6:53–57, Jesus says, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you ..."
 
Politesse said:
The gospels aren't generally written from an Omniscient Narrator perspective, though. That and the temptation in the desert scene are the only stories that take place out of sight from the disciples.
Click to expand...

I think there's a few more than that.

Matthew 1. We're told that Mary was "found to be with child by the Holy Spirit." We read about the secret plans of Joseph to deal with Mary's pregnancy. Then we're told that an angel visited Joseph in a dream. Then we're told that Joseph married Mary, but didn't have sex with her until for many months, until Jesus was born.

Which of the disciples or gospel writers observed all that?

Matthew 2. Herod "secretly" asked the visiting Maji where the star they had been "following" was pointing. After the Maji visit Jesus, they are warned by God "in a dream" not to go back to Herod, and instead exit stage right never to be heard from again. How did anyone know what their dream was about?

Joseph has another dream about fleeing to Egypt, and a third dream about returning when Herod died. Then he has a fourth dream about moving to Nazareth.

Matthew 3, Luke 3. John the Baptist baptizes Jesus, and a voice from heaven declares Jesus a beloved Son. This might have been in front of a public gathering, but none of the disciples where there, were they? They certainly didn't mention anything about it later.

Matthew 4, Luke 4. The temptation of Jesus. Lot's of one-on-one dialogue between Jesus and a spiritual being, but this has already been mentioned as an exception.

Jesus finds out that John the Baptist has been arrested, so goes to Capernaum. This was before he called any disciples.

Matthew 14, Mark 6. The daughter of Herodias dances before Herod, and he lets her name a reward. "Prompted by her mother" she asks for the head of John the Baptist. Which disciple was present at this royal gathering, and which of them knew about this secret conversation between a mother and her daughter?

Matthew 26, Mark 14, John 11. Chief Priests and Caiaphas plot to capture Jesus and kill him, "but not during the festival." Which of the disciples knew the details of this secret plot but chose not to say anything about it to Jesus?

Judas alone betrays Jesus and is paid thirty pieces of silver. Did he disclose this sum to anyone? He also arranged ahead of time the secret signal of kissing Jesus.

(Also Luke 22) The Garden of Gethsename. Already mentioned as a lengthy passage where Jesus has a long conversation alone with God.

(Also Luke 22) Jesus is arrested, and the disciples flee. Then we learn the details of his trial with Caiaphas in great detail. Peter was there, but outside in the courtyard. I doubt he was jotting the record down in a notebook.

Matthew 27. We learn that Judas, who certainly wasn't hanging around with the other disciples, feels remorse, returns the betrayal money, converses with the priests, and hangs himself. The priests consult with each other what to do with the money. Meanwhile, the disciples are all in hiding.

(Also Luke 23, John 18) Jesus has a conversation with Pilate. Were any of the disciples present as character witnesses?

Pilate's wife tells him that she's had a dream about Jesus. Which disciple was privy to the dreams of Pilate's wife?

When Jesus dies, the veil of the temple (accessible only to special priests) rips "from top to bottom." That's a very interesting detail which none of the disciples were in a position to observe.

Chief priests and Pharisees convince Pilate to post a guard on Jesus' tomb. Somehow the scattered, grievous disciples know about the details of this conversation.

Matthew 28: The chief priests bribe the soldiers guarding the tomb. Was this done out in public?

Mark 1: More details about Jesus' baptism, and the wilderness temptation, and angels "ministering" to Jesus, all before he called a single disciple.

Mark 15, Luke 23: We learn about private conversations between Joseph of Arimathea, Pilate, and a centurion.

Mark 16: Mary, Mary, and Salome, find an empty grave, are told by a boy that Jesus will see them later in Galilee, then the ladies flee and tell no one anything.

Luke 1: Zacharias has a conversation with an angel, then is struck mute, so whom did he tell the story?

Luke 2: Some random shepherds are told about Jesus' birth. Which disciple did they tell thirty years later?

Mary observes wonders about the child Jesus "and treasured them in her heart."

Luke 20: Scribes and chief priests send spies to entrap Jesus in blasphemy, but when they can't, the priests "remain silent", meaning they didn't chat about that with any of the disciples.

Luke 22: "Satan entered Judas" probably not a public affair.

Luke 23: Were the conversations between Jesus and the thieves loud enough for bystanders to hear?

John 1: Before Jesus or his disciples enters the scene, John the Baptist converses with Pharisees. Who recorded their dialogue?

John 3: Nicodemus meets Jesus alone at night to discuss theology.

John 4: Jesus has a long conversation alone with a woman from Samaria.

John 19: Soldiers consult amongst themselves what to do with Jesus' cloak. Surely they didn't include a Jewish bystander in their negotiations.

John 20: After the disciples leave the empty tomb, Jesus has a one-on-one conversation with Mary.

Throughout the gospels, Jesus has a conversation with someone, and there's no mention if there's anyone else around. Maybe there were one or two--or all twelve--disciples nearby, hanging on every word, committing every scrap of dialogue to memory so that they can repeat it all thirty to fifty years later to the gospel writers (assuming they lived that long.)

But then there are other passages where Jesus commands his disciples to go preach 'two by two' and THEN he converses with someone, implying that no one else was privy to the conversation. There's just really no way to know.

I admit, that if only one or two passages were like this, then the claim that there aren't all that many passages in the Gospels with the Omniscient Narrator POV might be valid. But there aren't just one or two. There are many, which was quite common for the time, and which makes the question about who said what to whom in 1st-century Palestine very difficult to ascertain.

So difficult, in fact, that skepticism about what happened two thousand years ago in a non-literate era is the prudent choice.
 
Thomas II said:
Question: What about Paul vs Jesus? Any thoughts about Paul?

:unsure:
Click to expand...
https://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul

Differences of the Ministries of Jesus and Paul
Jesus:Paul:
1. Preached the gospel of the kingdom1. Preached the gospel of the grace of God
2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as Israel’s prophetic earthly kingdom2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as the heavenly position of the body of Christ
3. Presented Himself as the Messiah and King of the Jews (Israel)3. Presented Jesus as the risen Lord, Head of the Church, the body of Christ
4. Preached repentance, water baptism, keeping the Law, forgiving others, and faith in who He was as necessary for salvation4. Preached faith alone in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as necessary for salvation
5. Had Jews as His audience (a couple exceptions)5. Had Gentiles as his primary audience
6. Operated under the Mosaic Law6. Operated under grace
 
In 1991, Episcopal Bishop of Newark (New Jersey) John Shelby Spong (Jack Spong) wrote a book 'Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism", arguing that the Apostle Paul was "a self loading repressed Gay male"...

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom