• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

More Complex than Previously Thought - The New Scientific Mantra

I'm so glad actual science is making the "man from mud and woman from rib theory in the context of a five day old universe" looking better than so-called "theories" based on biochemistry, mathematics and paleontology.

At long last!
 
202-Origins-of-Humans-650x465.jpg
 
A lot of christians think they both happened because syncretism works for the religiously inclined.
 
"We learned more, therefore we know less"

True or false?


Both. We know more about what we learned. However, this reveals more categories of things to learn even more about. This is the splendor of knowlege. the "problems" this introduces is only in the minds of those that despise the creator

 
A lot of christians think they both happened because syncretism works for the religiously inclined.
Oh. Okay. So it's like Transubstantiation. You swallow the bread and the wine and ingest the body and the blood.

So, like, the Fludd kicked up the Earth's crust in a typical mudstorm (the bread and the wine), but when it was laid down, the crust transubstantiated (or would it be SUBsubstantiated?) into wind-eroded strata, and sun-dried strata, and thousands of years underwater strata, and heavier deposit strata laying atop lighter deposit strata... Just like what God does when you take the sacrament. Yeah, that's rational. AND we'd get consilience! Everything fits together, just like a hoarder's classification system.
 
That's the biggest bunch of bullshit ever. Scientific progress is purposefully limited in the areas that would point towards knowledge of psychic activity.
Purposefully?
They designed the scientific method in order to avoid having to face up to psychic activity?
Obviously not. The scientific method works perfectly. Can you trace how you arrived at that conclusion?

Here is an example of limiting one's scientific pursuits, that doesn't mention psychic activity, which shouldn't seem too far fetched to you (assuming your ability to comprehend hasn't become to limited due to manipulation):

  • Company "A" has a saboteur influence company B's R&D department when company B begins pursuing an avenue of research which would lead to company A losing competitive advantage. Let's say the research leads to new technology, to keep it simple.
  • The saboteur falsifies findings that lead towards the new tech to discourage pursuit of the new tech.
  • The saboteur also provides misleading, but true information to lead to an alternative, less useful tech.
  • The positive and negative pressure applied to the pursuit of the tech causes company B to pursue the less useful tech.
  • Company A retains a competitive advantage.

The psychic overclass has a competitive advantage over non-psychics, an advantage that they do not reveal, because of the unrest and societal upheaval it would cause (not to mention, it means that a non-psychic can never, ever, truly rise up- so there is no point in working).

The point is this: a non-psychic individual is ultimately manipulated and used to do menial labor for the psychic overclass. They have pain inflicted upon them so that the disgusting, meaningless labor they take care of for the psychic overclass seems relaxing, compared to the pain they've endured.

It's blatant manipulation, and not one individual in existence should stand for it, and allow the psychic overclass to keep their pleasurable way of life. The problem being, you cannot pinpoint the psychic overclass that takes advantage of the non-psychic underclass. They could simply make it appear that someone is a member, set them up as a fall guy, through targeted manipulation of members of the lower class. This means that any attack you make, except one in which you remove yourself from the equation (suicide), is probably one against an innocent. Suicide is the only true method of ensuring you do not harm a non-psychic, while removing yourself from servitude to the psychic over class.

So really, the only choice is ultimately for every member of the non-psychic underclass to die, so that we do not have to serve the psychic overclass.

Then again, they won't stop breeding the non-psychic lower class servants, so death of a non-psychic is simply a bump in the road for them, as they attempt to breed a being that is intelligent enough to serve, but not intelligent enough to catch on to the horrible position of servitude they are in.

It's a really fine line- creating an intelligent servant that willingly serves you, but isn't intelligent enough to understand their position. Which is why atheists who deny psychic activity (and work for a better society) and creationists (who believe in a God running things) exist. A 2 pronged approach to regulating ignorant beings- divide them, pit them against one another so they never, ever, catch on.

Creationists have the shit end of the stick though- they are the ones who end up living "another life", fed stories of multiple levels of purgatory (in each one, they are simply servants who are told that the work purifies their being), constantly working, and having their consciousness "transported" to new bodies (copied), to work on different worlds, and make the pleasure grounds of "God" idyllic and pleasant. Then again, it sure looks like atheists are getting set up for that one too....
 
That's the biggest bunch of bullshit ever. Scientific progress is purposefully limited in the areas that would point towards knowledge of psychic activity.
Purposefully?
They designed the scientific method in order to avoid having to face up to psychic activity?
Obviously not. The scientific method works perfectly. Can you trace how you arrived at that conclusion?
Well, if psychic powers exist, then there should be experiments that can show how they exist.
An anti-science-progress conspiracy could only limit the publication of those results, not the performance.
Except if they were psychic overlords, then they COULD, conceivably, stop all experiments that would discover psychic powers.
But if they had that level of control, they could also stop all internet posts that decry the conspiracy.
You posted about the conspiracy, so obviously they don't have that level of control
Therefore, they can't stop experiments about psychic powers.
Therefore, there should be a possibility of experiments discovering knowledge, and this knowledge growing and spreading, such as through internet posts, maybe on conspiracy-nut-friendly forums, but whatever. So, grass-roots knowledge leading to a growing curiosity about why this isn't in publiished reports, then a growing mistrust of the scientific authorities, and eventually an overhaul of the system or AT LEAST forcing the psychic overlords to reveal themselves and stop controlling from the shadows.
UNLESS they prevent the spread of such knowledge by making sure that the very method of scientific experiments prevents their discovery.
I really can't see any other way around it.
 
The psychic overclass has a competitive advantage over non-psychics, an advantage that they do not reveal, because of the unrest and societal upheaval it would cause (not to mention, it means that a non-psychic can never, ever, truly rise up- so there is no point in working).

Sounds to me like a really elaborate excuse for not getting a job.
 
That's the biggest bunch of bullshit ever. Scientific progress is purposefully limited in the areas that would point towards knowledge of psychic activity.
Purposefully?
They designed the scientific method in order to avoid having to face up to psychic activity?
Obviously not. The scientific method works perfectly. Can you trace how you arrived at that conclusion?
Well, if psychic powers exist, then there should be experiments that can show how they exist.
Definitely. Unless...
An anti-science-progress conspiracy could only limit the publication of those results, not the performance.
Psychics could deliberately turn the minds of non-psychics away from all such pursuits. Simply discourage any non-psychic from ever pursuing a life in a scientific discipline that would lead them to knowledge of psychic activity.

It would be very easy to single out non-psychics at a young age, trip them up in the various disciplines that are required for scientific endeavors, in a deliberate manipulation of their future choices.
Except if they were psychic overlords, then they COULD, conceivably, stop all experiments that would discover psychic powers.
But if they had that level of control, they could also stop all internet posts that decry the conspiracy.
You posted about the conspiracy, so obviously they don't have that level of control
I disagree. Of course people will catch on, and eventually think these kinds of thoughts. Especially if the non-psychic populace is greater in number than the psychic populace. So they need to allow these thoughts to be published on the internet so that people feel like they have an outlet. And by never deleting the posts or giving them any acknowledgement, and encouraging ridicule of such types of thoughts, the psychic overlords suppress true knowledge of their nature- not to mention diffuse various scenarios.
Therefore, they can't stop experiments about psychic powers.
Not necessarily true.
Therefore, there should be a possibility of experiments discovering knowledge, and this knowledge growing and spreading, such as through internet posts, maybe on conspiracy-nut-friendly forums, but whatever. So, grass-roots knowledge leading to a growing curiosity about why this isn't in publiished reports, then a growing mistrust of the scientific authorities, and eventually an overhaul of the system or AT LEAST forcing the psychic overlords to reveal themselves and stop controlling from the shadows.
UNLESS they prevent the spread of such knowledge by making sure that the very method of scientific experiments prevents their discovery.
I really can't see any other way around it.
I can. You can check off a lot of the sciences. Not like all branches of science would point towards psychic phenomena.

There is only one scientific discipline that could result in discovery of psychic phenomena. And it also happens to be a bit out of reach for many laymen.

Physics. This is the one discipline that would point towards psychic phenomena (not neuroscience- although combining the 2).

It is the only discipline that could reveal it. There aren't tons of physicists in the world, although there are a shitload of physicist hobbyists, who study the theories that are released to the public, who would NEVER actually have access to the lab equipment because it is too expensive for a layman to play around with. In fact, all they have to do is release some aspects of physical theories, and not teach the parts that indicate psychic activity exists.

And then I looked up how many PhD's there were in physics (this doesn't cover those awarded outside of the USA, and the coincidental number of PhDs is.. coincidental, like many things):

And looking at the American Institute of Physics website for the number of PhDs rewarded, the chart I found (in a PDF on their website) went up until 2012. And there were 1,762 physics graduates in 2012, a 62% increase from a recent low, 8 years prior.
And this just happens to contain the number I mentioned the other day, when I said I don't believe in the Feynman Point of Pi, because it was way too coincidental (762 being a number that is significant for various reasons):

Reminds me of the  Feynman Point in \(\pi\). I'm relatively sure that its existence at the 762nd decimal place of pi is a deliberate lie. It's like my b-day turning up as part of God's phone number in Bruce Almighty  776-2323 years ago (another 762). Who does who think they are bullshitting, and what makes them think they can get away with it?

It's like a big joke played on me. Seriously- Feynman is a physicist, so I'm not going to read anything into this coincidence?



So anyways, the point being that psychics would only have to corner one very specific, elite discipline in order to hide their existence. Not to mention that this whole tangent of conversation about psychic activity arose because of Bilby mentioning witchcraft as a means of distance communication:
In the middle ages, lots of people thought it was possible to communicate over long distances using witchcraft; but they were wrong - that isn't possible, despite being such a simple concept that even an illiterate peasant can be persuaded that it is true.

To which I responded (about the elite class):
Umm, I'm pretty sure the whole "no such thing as psychic activity" thing is a myth perpetuated by those who evolved psychic powers and control what scientific knowledge the non-psychic classes have access to. No non-psychic will ever successfully prove psychic powers exist. ....
Unionize- you are be watched, and manipulated by an immoral elite...

And then the feature article I found at Ars Technica, when I was done typing out my response (to bilby) here last night, was about "Elite: Dangerous":
Ars Technica said:
We fought, we traded, we braved witch space—and we’re excited about what’s to come.

Just a coincidence, ehh?
 
Last edited:
Psychics could deliberately turn the minds of non-psychics away from all such pursuits. Simply discourage any non-psychic from ever pursuing a life in a scientific discipline that would lead them to knowledge of psychic activity.
But if they had that much control, then we could not speculate about their powers of control.
Your very post disproves this aspect.
You posted about the conspiracy, so obviously they don't have that level of control
I disagree. Of course people will catch on, and eventually think these kinds of thoughts. Especially if the non-psychic populace is greater in number than the psychic populace. So they need to allow these thoughts to be published on the internet so that people feel like they have an outlet.
You're rationalizing, and poorly. Fanfiction should at least be internally consistent, if nothing else.

They cannot have sufficient control to prevent ALL inquiries into psychic-related science, but insufficient control such that they need these thoughts to have an 'outlet.'
I can. You can check off a lot of the sciences. Not like all branches of science would point towards psychic phenomena.
No, but they do teach people how to use the scientific method and perform their own experiments, even if they're not in the appropriate discipline and won't be published.
Physics. This is the one discipline that would point towards psychic phenomena (not neuroscience- although combining the 2).
Feel free to actually explain why this would be true, rather than just how the expense of the tools is convenient for your claims.
So anyways, the point being that psychics would only have to corner one very specific, elite discipline in order to hide their existence.
Says you.
Why?


And as with all conspiracy theories: How is it that you know enough to reveal it, but not enough to get your brain perforated?
 
But if they had that much control, then we could not speculate about their powers of control.
Your very post disproves this aspect.
Nope. It's a lot easier to fuck up someone's future ability to learn a scientific discipline while they are young, then it is to keep a brilliant young mind from eventually discovering some truths about reality.

Fucking with someones ability to do science is easy- just pressure them at certain points in their life so that they feel like they are not good at whatever it is- don't be overt about it, but instead push the feeling of inability to understand a subject upon the person. It's not like you need to do this a lot with a kid- a kid will succumb to these pressures much quicker than an adult. Kid discouraged? Well, if you do it right, the kid will think "I am naturally bad at math" or "I am good at biology, but I just don't get physics because of the math".

And you'll have a life long success story (well, the kid will move away from physics). What if any non-psychic intelligent kid starts taking physics classes in college? Start applying pressure again. Send a charismatic individual to mess with their education. Apply various pressures to make them lose interest in physics again.

You only need to plant the seed of doubt in someone in order to make them skeptical of psychic powers. You obfuscate the truth about psychic power with very simple manipulations- throw psychic activity in with all the religious "miracles" that the skeptical portion of the populace will never believe in (or if they do believe, they are easier to manipulate anyway, so that's a keeper).

Build an affinity for the skeptical portion of the population for "science", especially physics. Only allow true psychics, who are willing to exploit the underclasses, into the higher echelons of physical understanding.

Encourage animosity in the skeptical portion of the populace for centralized authorities that pronounce "God says this, God says that". Have certain individuals make religious claims against the evidence that physicists provide in order to cause the skeptical class to side more and more with the physical teachings you allow the populace access to.

This will cause the skeptics to more firmly side with the physicists. Encourage various other bullshit claims about the nature of reality to push skeptics even further into belief in certain theories, which allow them to be manipulated in different ways than believers can be manipulated.


It's pretty simple, if you have a large enough section of the populace that is docile and under your control (Jesus is with you), you don't really have to worry about the outliers (such as you or I). In fact, if you have a built in story about the ultimate fate of the outliers, in which all of them are rounded up and killed, you pretty much cement your authority over the docile portion of the population when you finally do round up and kill the outliers. You just let the outliers live alongside the subjugated portion of the populace until such a time as you are ready to kill the outliers (when they have outlived their usefulness, or they really start cutting into your harvest of the docile portion of the populace).

Especially if the outliers are stupid enough to be condescending assholes about the beliefs of the portion of the population that is docile to the psychic overlords. You just need a built in story that says "the outliers were made to be destroyed, it was selected beforehand, do not worry, all is in the hands of your lord!"




They cannot have sufficient control to prevent ALL inquiries into psychic-related science, but insufficient control such that they need these thoughts to have an 'outlet.'
All inquiries? They've already convinced you, even though you aren't a physicist. You can't make inquiries into whether or not physical laws allow psychic activity or not. You know what you've been taught, and that is it.

In fact, by lumping psychic activity in with all the religious mumbo jumbo and lies, they have effectively pulled the greatest scam job on skeptics and atheists in the history of the universe. You guys will be docile citizens til the day you die, because you will never believe that you were manipulated into the positions you are in today by a psychic overclass.


I can. You can check off a lot of the sciences. Not like all branches of science would point towards psychic phenomena.
No, but they do teach people how to use the scientific method and perform their own experiments, even if they're not in the appropriate discipline and won't be published.
What? You're a smart guy. Can you think of one experiment, that a non psychic could run, that would confirm psychic activity?

What if, God forbid, there is a system in place, in which those in control of the scientific equipment can control who gets access to it. Perhaps sometimes it seems like someone with greater qualifications gets passed over....
And as with all conspiracy theories: How is it that you know enough to reveal it, but not enough to get your brain perforated?
At this point, it doesn't matter. It's not like there are a large number of individuals reading what either of us write. The communication channels are pretty narrow.

In addition, there is enough obfuscation of the truth to bury psychic activity under claims of Woo or psychosis (assuming you've a skeptical view of things); and sorcery, witchcraft, satanism, demonic possession, or God (assuming you're a creationist, or something similar).

And, as someone who would have written off any claim of psychic activity as "conspiracy theories" and/or "woo ass bullshit" when I was a teenager, I find it easy to picture others not knowing what is going on.
 
I can. You can check off a lot of the sciences. Not like all branches of science would point towards psychic phenomena.
No, but they do teach people how to use the scientific method and perform their own experiments, even if they're not in the appropriate discipline and won't be published.
What? You're a smart guy. Can you think of one experiment, that a non psychic could run, that would confirm psychic activity?
That bit where they do brain surgery, and stimulate parts of the brain to make sure they're not doing damage, and instead of the guy reporting that he smells red or hears weight, he starts repeating the nurse's thoughts about the sex she had the night before, including details of which lubricant flavor...

The psychic masters would have to also make sure neurologists never ever ever stimulated the latent-psychic-power lobes, even by accident, which would require physics AND neurology to be completely dominated by your unstable population of psychics.
 
Why would we expect that psychic powers, alone of all human discoveries, would be kept secret?

The guys who ran the Manhattan project intended to keep their awesome new power secret; but by the time of the Trinity test, Joe Stalin had the construction manuals on his desk in the Kremlin.

Every major discovery in history has become public knowledge in short order; the best kept secrets - such as the British breaking the German Enigma codes - only remained secret for a few decades.

There is an old saying - three men can keep a secret, as long as two of them are dead.

And if psychic powers exist, where are the applications? Why are our overlords not using those powers on us? A slave may not know how to forge a steel chain; he may have no idea how to go about breaking such a chain; but he sure as hell knows that the chain exists.
 
What? You're a smart guy. Can you think of one experiment, that a non psychic could run, that would confirm psychic activity?
That bit where they do brain surgery, and stimulate parts of the brain to make sure they're not doing damage, and instead of the guy reporting that he smells red or hears weight, he starts repeating the nurse's thoughts about the sex she had the night before, including details of which lubricant flavor...

The psychic masters would have to also make sure neurologists never ever ever stimulated the latent-psychic-power lobes, even by accident, which would require physics AND neurology to be completely dominated by your unstable population of psychics.
Why would you think that everyone had latent psychic ability? Why would someone need a whole structure, rather than something simpler, such as a certain protein mutation?

And even in the case that both neuroscience and physics had to be dominated by psychics, there are only ~1700 physics PhDs each year in the USA, and 7000 biological sciences PhDs (not sure what portion of those are neuroscience). So if psychics only have to dominate these 2 fields, with well over 2 (closer to 4) million people born per year average in the USA over the past few decades, we don't have a big problem for our overlords. They would need to be 1/500th (closer to 1/1000th) of the population to do so, and have some left over to fill other positions.

So assume that they are around the top 1 to 2% of the population, instead of the top .1 to .2%. This leaves greater than 80% of their population free to monitor the populace, a populace that already does lots of self monitoring! All they need is for the majority of the populace to work towards common goals, and they are off scott free. Set up unaware (or aware) middle management types to take care of stuff, do a psychic evaluation of the management every once in a while, and reap the benefits.

Herding people towards certain occupations probably takes a bit of time, but for the most part, people will allow themselves to be used for things they perceive to contribute to the greater good, even when they know that certain portions of the population have a slight advantage in their ability to rise up.

But how would non-psychics feel about psychics existing, knowing that the non-psychic underclass is in permanent servitude to the pleasures of a powerful overclass? This would cause massive upheaval, revolution, etc. Especially if psychics are found to have their hands in the cookie jar, taking the nicer positions in life, taking the better jobs, the nicer houses, etc. etc. etc. by virtue of their vastly superior abilities.

Then again, they might rely on convincing you that you would have done it too.
 
Why would we expect that psychic powers, alone of all human discoveries, would be kept secret?
Understanding of human psychology, which of course a psychic would have a better grasp on then a non-psychic. People wouldn't want some being that they cannot sense the motivations of monitoring or influencing their lives. Especially if they see that being living a much better life than them.

There is an old saying - three men can keep a secret, as long as two of them are dead.
That's not the full saying: three men can keep a secret, as long as two of them are dead or all three know of the destruction the revelation of the secret could cause to what they care about.

On a side note: Occasionally non-psychics, when their secrets are known by psychics, have psychic pressure applied to them to get their secrets in the open, so that psychics don't have to reveal themselves.

The 2 of them is dead part only applies to non-psychics.
And if psychic powers exist, where are the applications?
I find it totally shocking that psychic abilities have been revealed to be non-existent. Totally. I mean, seriously, who would ever try to cover something up like that? It's like, what could they possibly gain?

As to the applications of psychic ability, let me get this straight: A willing, docile populace that generates wealth and happiness for you and one another is not an application of psychic ability?

I'm not saying psychics don't have to work at all- if they corner the physics end of things, they have to ultimately use resources to determine how and when to move to other planets, and deal with other things. I just am more than a bit curious about everything.
Why are our overlords not using those powers on us? A slave may not know how to forge a steel chain; he may have no idea how to go about breaking such a chain; but he sure as hell knows that the chain exists.
So you think you'd notice when a psychic forced a thought on you, or monitored what you are thinking?
 
Understanding of human psychology, which of course a psychic would have a better grasp on then a non-psychic. People wouldn't want some being that they cannot sense the motivations of monitoring or influencing their lives. Especially if they see that being living a much better life than them.

There is an old saying - three men can keep a secret, as long as two of them are dead.
That's not the full saying: three men can keep a secret, as long as two of them are dead or all three know of the destruction the revelation of the secret could cause to what they care about.

On a side note: Occasionally non-psychics, when their secrets are known by psychics, have psychic pressure applied to them to get their secrets in the open, so that psychics don't have to reveal themselves.

The 2 of them is dead part only applies to non-psychics.
And if psychic powers exist, where are the applications?
I find it totally shocking that psychic abilities have been revealed to be non-existent. Totally. I mean, seriously, who would ever try to cover something up like that? It's like, what could they possibly gain?

As to the applications of psychic ability, let me get this straight: A willing, docile populace that generates wealth and happiness for you and one another is not an application of psychic ability?

I'm not saying psychics don't have to work at all- if they corner the physics end of things, they have to ultimately use resources to determine how and when to move to other planets, and deal with other things. I just am more than a bit curious about everything.
Why are our overlords not using those powers on us? A slave may not know how to forge a steel chain; he may have no idea how to go about breaking such a chain; but he sure as hell knows that the chain exists.
So you think you'd notice when a psychic forced a thought on you, or monitored what you are thinking?

Yes. Yes I do. Wouldn't you? If you wouldn't, then where did you get the knowledge to which you are laying claim?
 
The simple fact is, Kharakov's position refutes itself.

The claim is that there are a group of psychics who control the rest of us in such a way that nobody is aware of it.

If this claim is false, then it is false.

If this claim is true, then Kharakov is either aware of its truth - in which case his claim that nobody is aware of it is false; or he is not aware of it, in which case he has no grounds for it - and if the proposer of a claim has no grounds for making the claim, it is completely reasonable to reject the claim as fantasy.

Before we even start looking at the credibility of the claim as it relates to external evidence for or against, it has already destroyed its own credibility, and can be dismissed without the need to refer to any external evidence.
 
So you think you'd notice when a psychic forced a thought on you, or monitored what you are thinking?
Yes. Yes I do.
How, if your thoughts were being monitored, would you know this?

How would you detect a thought being inserted into your thought stream in such a way that it seemed to come from you?
If you wouldn't, then where did you get the knowledge to which you are laying claim?
Not all psychics are on the same side.
 
So you think you'd notice when a psychic forced a thought on you, or monitored what you are thinking?
Yes. Yes I do.
How, if your thoughts were being monitored, would you know this?

How would you detect a thought being inserted into your thought stream in such a way that it seemed to come from you?
If you wouldn't, then where did you get the knowledge to which you are laying claim?
Not all psychics are on the same side.

Then there is no possibility that their abilities could remain secret. You can't have it both ways - either they present a united front to maintain secrecy, in which case you cannot possibly know about them; or they are divided, in which case there is no way their existence could avoid being widely known.
 
Back
Top Bottom