More Complex than Previously Thought - The New Scientific Mantra

[Kharakov]

The simple fact is, Kharakov's position refutes itself.

Not really. Although some would rather wallow in the opiate of the skeptics, ignorance of psychic activity, which isn't something that is easy to drive them from.

The claim is that there are a group of psychics who control the rest of us in such a way that nobody is aware of it.

Nope, that is not the claim. Control structures are in place to control information flow in such a way that even if people become aware of psychic manipulation of events, they can neither prove it, nor create a big stir about it.

You cannot prove psychic activity exists, because the physical theories that indicate psychic activity is possible (and exists) are not available to the non-psychic portions of the populace. At a young age, non-psychic portions of the populace are discouraged from pursuit of knowledge that could lead towards knowledge of psychic activity.

In fact, non-psychics are generally lead towards either skepticism of psychic ability, or towards religion, depending on which of the 2 they are more susceptible to.

If skepticism doesn't work (ie, they don't disbelieve in what they are told is supernatural), you catch them with religion by using psychic knowledge of their inner thoughts to convince them of God's existence by arranging events in their life to make it seem like there is a divine hand coordinating events in their life. You hook 'em with thoughts of God, if they don't deny the supernatural.

If they don't believe in the supernatural, use skepticism and naturalism. You lump in claims of psychic activity with all the other supernatural claims. You have the various religious individuals you have under the 'mystical spell' make tons of claims against scientific truths about reality. This drives the skeptics further towards acceptance of scientific truths, many of which are the truth, except any information that leads away from psychic activity.

 

[bilby]

Not really. Although some would rather wallow in the opiate of the skeptics, ignorance of psychic activity, which isn't something that is easy to drive them from.

The claim is that there are a group of psychics who control the rest of us in such a way that nobody is aware of it.

Nope, that is not the claim. Control structures are in place to control information flow in such a way that even if people become aware of psychic manipulation of events, they can neither prove it, nor create a big stir about it.

You cannot prove psychic activity exists, because the physical theories that indicate psychic activity is possible (and exists) are not available to the non-psychic portions of the populace. At a young age, non-psychic portions of the populace are discouraged from pursuit of knowledge that could lead towards knowledge of psychic activity.

In fact, non-psychics are generally lead towards either skepticism of psychic ability, or towards religion, depending on which of the 2 they are more susceptible to.

If skepticism doesn't work (ie, they don't disbelieve in what they are told is supernatural), you catch them with religion by using psychic knowledge of their inner thoughts to convince them of God's existence by arranging events in their life to make it seem like there is a divine hand coordinating events in their life. You hook 'em with thoughts of God, if they don't deny the supernatural.

If they don't believe in the supernatural, use skepticism and naturalism. You lump in claims of psychic activity with all the other supernatural claims. You have the various religious individuals you have under the 'mystical spell' make tons of claims against scientific truths about reality. This drives the skeptics further towards acceptance of scientific truths, many of which are the truth, except any information that leads away from psychic activity.

OK; by what technique, experiment or observation could anybody tell the difference between your claim being true, and your claim being a total fantasy on your part?

 

[Kharakov]

So you think you'd notice when a psychic forced a thought on you, or monitored what you are thinking?

Yes. Yes I do.

How, if your thoughts were being monitored, would you know this?

How would you detect a thought being inserted into your thought stream in such a way that it seemed to come from you?

If you wouldn't, then where did you get the knowledge to which you are laying claim?

Not all psychics are on the same side.

Then there is no possibility that their abilities could remain secret. You can't have it both ways - either they present a united front to maintain secrecy, in which case you cannot possibly know about them; or they are divided, in which case there is no way their existence could avoid being widely known.

You're right. It seemed like the wrong thing to say at the time, yet I could not resist the urge to say it. I knew of the various objections that could arise (that you presented), and despite this knowledge, I posted it anyway, ignoring the very same objections arising within my own mind- the logical objections, that refute this strawman that leads away from knowledge of psychic activity.

So we can be forced to ignore logic temporarily, but not permanently. By discourse with one another, we can arrive at the truth, even when they attempt to regulate our thoughts (even your position of extreme skepticism of psychic activity, that they have carefully cultivated, should eventually succumb to logic).

I ask you again:

How would you know your thoughts were being monitored?

How would you detect a thought being inserted into your thought stream in such a way that it seemed to come from you?

Note that the second question is exactly what happened in the post above- see how that works? Unless, of course, you think this was all an elaborate plot of mine to lead to this point. Would you put that past me?

 

[bilby]

So you think you'd notice when a psychic forced a thought on you, or monitored what you are thinking?

Yes. Yes I do.

How, if your thoughts were being monitored, would you know this?

How would you detect a thought being inserted into your thought stream in such a way that it seemed to come from you?

If you wouldn't, then where did you get the knowledge to which you are laying claim?

Not all psychics are on the same side.

Then there is no possibility that their abilities could remain secret. You can't have it both ways - either they present a united front to maintain secrecy, in which case you cannot possibly know about them; or they are divided, in which case there is no way their existence could avoid being widely known.

You're right. It seemed like the wrong thing to say at the time, yet I could not resist the urge to say it. I knew of the various objections that could arise (that you presented), and despite this knowledge, I posted it anyway, ignoring the very same objections arising within my own mind- the logical objections, that refute this strawman that leads away from knowledge of psychic activity.

So, where do you get the knowledge to which you are laying claim?

So we can be forced to ignore logic temporarily, but not permanently. By discourse with one another, we can arrive at the truth, even when they attempt to regulate our thoughts (even your position of extreme skepticism of psychic activity, that they have carefully cultivated, should eventually succumb to logic).

Discourse can help to clarify our thoughts; but only observation can help us arrive at the truth. Discourse alone cannot proceed to truth without reference to the outside world. Where did you get the knowledge to which you are laying claim?

 

[Kharakov]

OK; by what technique, experiment or observation could anybody tell the difference between your claim being true, and your claim being a total fantasy on your part?

Well, if you enjoy arguing against my claim, it's an indication to me that you've been indoctrinated into enjoying arguing against claims that are true, yet scientific authorities claim are false*. You've been indoctrinated into the practice of accepting facts presented by the scientific community without questioning whether these facts are presenting the whole truth (or any truth) about the situation.

I'd say we'd have to use fMRI on particle physicists and question them about psychic activity, and see if we could have them in 2 different rooms, exposing one to disgusting images, or whatever, and seeing if the other physicist's brain reacted.

The problem with this test is that they may have found a way to defeat it- they may simply do a concentrated psychic attack on those of us doing the test, and force us to believe the results were negative, and then they will insert new recorded data that indicates that there were no positive results. And maybe they have as much control over their psychic abilities as we do over our speech.

* By grouping claims of psychic activity with claims that are obviously false, one could render even the most logical person susceptible to deception in regards to psychic abilities, as I've said before.

 

[bilby]

OK; by what technique, experiment or observation could anybody tell the difference between your claim being true, and your claim being a total fantasy on your part?

Well, if you enjoy arguing against my claim, it's an indication to me that you've been indoctrinated into enjoying arguing against claims that are true, yet scientific authorities claim are false*. You've been indoctrinated into the practice of accepting facts presented by the scientific community without questioning whether these facts are presenting the whole truth (or any truth) about the situation.

I'd say we'd have to use fMRI on particle physicists and question them about psychic activity, and see if we could have them in 2 different rooms, exposing one to disgusting images, or whatever, and seeing if the other physicist's brain reacted.

The problem with this test is that they may have found a way to defeat it- they may simply do a concentrated psychic attack on those of us doing the test, and force us to believe the results were negative, and then they will insert new recorded data that indicates that there were no positive results. And maybe they have as much control over their psychic abilities as we do over our speech.

* By grouping claims of psychic activity with claims that are obviously false, one could render even the most logical person susceptible to deception in regards to psychic abilities, as I've said before.

That's nice.

Unfortunately, "if you enjoy arguing against my claim, it's an indication to me that you've been indoctrinated into enjoying arguing against claims that are true, yet scientific authorities claim are false" is a perfect example of a circular argument; one of the premises used to reach the conclusion is that the conclusion is true.

By what technique, experiment or observation did YOU determine that your claim was true?

 

[Kharakov]

Discourse can help to clarify our thoughts; but only observation can help us arrive at the truth. Discourse alone cannot proceed to truth without reference to the outside world. Where did you get the knowledge to which you are laying claim?

Observation and logic. My life has more structure in it than would exist in a non-directed universe bound only by natural laws, with no psychic or telepathic individuals within it. This is going to cross the line into stuff that you and keith will kick under the table as woo..

Show

So either God, or psychic beings exist, or both. Or I could simply be hallucinating a whole bunch of stuff. Which would mean I have VERY elaborate hallucinations, orchestrated by my brain, without me being consciously aware that my brain is planning out stuff.

It would have to be something along the order of "A Beautiful Mind", although my experiences aren't causing me to lose touch with reality.. ehhh. ehhh... or I have a sense of humor about the possibility.

And the thing is, why would my brain plan out my experience of reality in such a way that I feel connected to reality and experience its beauty, if my brain, itself, doesn't know and care for me? By logical inference, if my brain is planning out my experience of reality to make me happy, and feel connected, my brain knows me. Although a voice just called me "tard", so..

 

[Kharakov]

Unfortunately, "if you enjoy arguing against my claim, it's an indication to me that you've been indoctrinated into enjoying arguing against claims that are true, yet scientific authorities claim are false" is a perfect example of a circular argument; one of the premises used to reach the conclusion is that the conclusion is true.

Nope. It's simply a statement. That's why I threw the underhanded pitch "it's an indication to me". I knew I wouldn't get away with.. ya know. Ok, so I'm slightly buzzed at this point, and I'm still drinking.

So now I suppose I should present you with an argument why arguing against my claim indicates something to me?

I thought I wrapped that up already. Anyway- basically, the psychic overlords only have to corner one scientific discipline (well two, if you accept Keith's point about neuroscience, but I'm leaning towards physics as the branch of science that could indicate whether or not psychic activity exists). Of course, if psychic activity is spooky action at a distance, that is regulated outside of 3 dimensional space, than we really would not be able to detect the transmission of thought. So maybe particle physics couldn't find any indication of psychic activity. So... I might have been wrong about that.

However, if things in my life indicate that something else is influencing events (assuming I'm not hallucinating, or my mind isn't creating scenarios to make me happy- I know I am not doing so consciously). Something is either directly interacting with me, and reality, or my brain is engaging in elaborate deceptions. But those elaborate deceptions involve so many disparate portions of reality, that it doesn't seem likely that it could be occurring without some other being calling the shots.