More peaceful Muslims murder people ...

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, the Muslim extremists certainly have quite a factory of this, that is definitely going way over the other "members of every faction of every sect of every religious group in the world, and to people of no religion at all."

There's no factory. There's just angry people attacking other people for their own reasons. Sure, the angry Muslims get a lot of media coverage and their attacks are frightening, but I doubt they're killing more people each year than the men who go on rampages when their wives and girlfriends try to end a relationship.

And you can doubt the sun rises in the east.

I jumped into this conversation when people were trying to assert that it was the guy's religion that caused him to kill. I think you and Loren are ignoring another possibility, one that is strongly hinted at in the OP article:

Israeli security services said he had “significant personal and family problems, including those regarding family violence” and that his wife had fled to Jordan several weeks ago.

It doesn't take faith in Allah to push a guy like that over the edge.

We are not saying it takes Allah to push him over the edge. The recruiters generally don't create the failure, they channel it. Without them it would be much less likely that he would attack strangers.

There is also the issue that suicide is shameful in their culture, except when it's part of a suicide attack. A suicide attack provides a socially acceptable route to suicide, thus converting simple suicides into attacks.

 

[Arctish]

There's no factory. There's just angry people attacking other people for their own reasons. Sure, the angry Muslims get a lot of media coverage and their attacks are frightening, but I doubt they're killing more people each year than the men who go on rampages when their wives and girlfriends try to end a relationship.

The latter example is nowhere near as systematically preplanned and arranged for its deadly accuracy to further embolden others and inspire more of the same violence.

"Nowhere near as systematically preplanned and arranged for its deadly accuracy" - I don't think that's true. It seems to me that a lot of shootings at former spouses' workplaces, murder-suicides, and kidnapping-rape-strangulations are extensively preplanned and arranged for deadly accuracy. Not every one of course. Some are spur-of-the-moment attacks. But many of them are the result of planning, and I think the number of victims is close to or exceeds the number of victims of planned Muslim attacks.

"To further embolden others and inspire more of the same violence." - I never said men going on rampages when their wives and girlfriends try to escape those relationships are doing it with the intention of inspiring others.

I jumped into this conversation when people were trying to assert that it was the guy's religion that caused him to kill.

No, it doesn't have to be responsible for the whole cause, but it certainly is a large factor in far too many instances.

I think you and Loren are ignoring another possibility, one that is strongly hinted at in the OP article:

Israeli security services said he had “significant personal and family problems, including those regarding family violence” and that his wife had fled to Jordan several weeks ago.

It doesn't take faith in Allah to push a guy like that over the edge.

Yes, maybe for this exact case, although since he did have a weapon ready, planning could have been involved. With not that much information given yet, we can't know if he was really just acting alone either. Nevertheless, besides polilical and other societal problems, the faith and religious differences can still very strongly unite a people, and the cited tweet in the OP is simply another added manipulating aspect.

Religious belief can be a compounding factor. But I believe that people pick and choose which parts of their religious texts they embrace based on what they want it to say. Their religion doesn't dictate their behavior, it's used to justify them doing what they would have done anyway.

 

[Arctish]

There's no factory. There's just angry people attacking other people for their own reasons. Sure, the angry Muslims get a lot of media coverage and their attacks are frightening, but I doubt they're killing more people each year than the men who go on rampages when their wives and girlfriends try to end a relationship.

And you can doubt the sun rises in the east.

Shall I go find you some facts on the number of women (and bystanders) killed by abusive partners each year and compare it to the number of people killed in attacks committed by Islamists? Or do you want to think about it for a little while and remember all those times you heard about a guy killing someone because his wife/girlfriend/domestic partner was going to leave him, or already had?

Domestic Violence: Nearly Three U.S. Women Killed Every Day by Intimate Partners

3 women per day x 365 days per year = over 1000 deaths each year in the US alone. And that's not counting the new boyfriends, relatives, coworkers, and bystanders who are often killed as well.

I jumped into this conversation when people were trying to assert that it was the guy's religion that caused him to kill. I think you and Loren are ignoring another possibility, one that is strongly hinted at in the OP article:

Israeli security services said he had “significant personal and family problems, including those regarding family violence” and that his wife had fled to Jordan several weeks ago.

It doesn't take faith in Allah to push a guy like that over the edge.

We are not saying it takes Allah to push him over the edge. The recruiters generally don't create the failure, they channel it. Without them it would be much less likely that he would attack strangers.

There is also the issue that suicide is shameful in their culture, except when it's part of a suicide attack. A suicide attack provides a socially acceptable route to suicide, thus converting simple suicides into attacks.

You're still trying to blame his religious affiliation without even knowing if the guy was all that religious.

I don't see any reasons to suppose he was in contact with a recruiter when his "significant personal and family problems, including those regarding family violence", and the fact his wife had run off to a place where he couldn't easily get her is sufficient to explain his murderous rage.

 

[sharon45]

That is also about by the same design in Gaza, here with Hamas doned as the recruiter, tightening the screws on the people, turning them more into victims, who will ultimately be corrupted into blaming Israel instead.

"Also" implies it's somehow a different case. They are not merely parallel, they are identical. Hamas just has the advantage of being in a position to cause far more personal failure.

I meant the word "about" to be used that way, because I am not as confident in this regard as others are.

 

[sharon45]

The latter example is nowhere near as systematically preplanned and arranged for its deadly accuracy to further embolden others and inspire more of the same violence.

"Nowhere near as systematically preplanned and arranged for its deadly accuracy" - I don't think that's true. It seems to me that a lot of shootings at former spouses' workplaces, murder-suicides, and kidnapping-rape-strangulations are extensively preplanned and arranged for deadly accuracy. Not every one of course. Some are spur-of-the-moment attacks. But many of them are the result of planning, and I think the number of victims is close to or exceeds the number of victims of planned Muslim attacks.

"To further embolden others and inspire more of the same violence." - I never said men going on rampages when their wives and girlfriends try to escape those relationships are doing it with the intention of inspiring others.

That is why I put it all together, because there is absolutely no honest comparison between the two in this respect. And I don't really care about the amount of deaths, because public terror is the factory I am talking about. I heard ISIS has over 250 million dollars and occupies numerous countries. Even this newest shooting in Vegas isn't going any further, since he seems to be not connected to any organized group. Maybe until some other sicko wants to possibly break the hideous record.

I jumped into this conversation when people were trying to assert that it was the guy's religion that caused him to kill.

No, it doesn't have to be responsible for the whole cause, but it certainly is a large factor in far too many instances.

I think you and Loren are ignoring another possibility, one that is strongly hinted at in the OP article:

Israeli security services said he had “significant personal and family problems, including those regarding family violence” and that his wife had fled to Jordan several weeks ago.

It doesn't take faith in Allah to push a guy like that over the edge.

Yes, maybe for this exact case, although since he did have a weapon ready, planning could have been involved. With not that much information given yet, we can't know if he was really just acting alone either. Nevertheless, besides polilical and other societal problems, the faith and religious differences can still very strongly unite a people, and the cited tweet in the OP is simply another added manipulating aspect.

Religious belief can be a compounding factor. But I believe that people pick and choose which parts of their religious texts they embrace based on what they want it to say. Their religion doesn't dictate their behavior, it's used to justify them doing what they would have done anyway.

Yes, to some extent, but the terrorist network takes full advantage of these weaknesses. They use religion and many other facets to help dictate their brutal agenda.

 

[sharon45]

And you can doubt the sun rises in the east.

Shall I go find you some facts on the number of women (and bystanders) killed by abusive partners each year and compare it to the number of people killed in attacks committed by Islamists? Or do you want to think about it for a little while and remember all those times you heard about a guy killing someone because his wife/girlfriend/domestic partner was going to leave him, or already had?

Domestic Violence: Nearly Three U.S. Women Killed Every Day by Intimate Partners

3 women per day x 365 days per year = over 1000 deaths each year in the US alone. And that's not counting the new boyfriends, relatives, coworkers, and bystanders who are often killed as well.

These are not done as some grand heroic cause to save the world from a supposed satanic ideology and/or country.

 

[Arctish]

"Nowhere near as systematically preplanned and arranged for its deadly accuracy" - I don't think that's true. It seems to me that a lot of shootings at former spouses' workplaces, murder-suicides, and kidnapping-rape-strangulations are extensively preplanned and arranged for deadly accuracy. Not every one of course. Some are spur-of-the-moment attacks. But many of them are the result of planning, and I think the number of victims is close to or exceeds the number of victims of planned Muslim attacks.

"To further embolden others and inspire more of the same violence." - I never said men going on rampages when their wives and girlfriends try to escape those relationships are doing it with the intention of inspiring others.

That is why I put it all together, because there is absolutely no honest comparison between the two in this respect.

I'm not comparing them.

I'm pointing out that there's more than one likely motive for the guy in the OP to have gone on a killing spree. Putting those phrases together the way you did completely discounts the likelihood the guy was a pissed off wife beater enraged by his spouse's escape and intent on having his revenge on a world that made it possible. But it's not any less likely than his being run through the radical factory by a recruiter.

Religious belief can be a compounding factor. But I believe that people pick and choose which parts of their religious texts they embrace based on what they want it to say. Their religion doesn't dictate their behavior, it's used to justify them doing what they would have done anyway.

Yes, to some extent, but the terrorist network takes full advantage of these weaknesses. They use religion and many other facets to help dictate their brutal agenda.

I agree.

That still doesn't mean Islam is the reason the guy went on a killing spree. And it doesn't justify tarring all Muslims with what he did just because they're Muslims.

Another 'perfect gentleman' murders people would be just as good a thread title as the one Derec chose to post.

 

[Arctish]

Shall I go find you some facts on the number of women (and bystanders) killed by abusive partners each year and compare it to the number of people killed in attacks committed by Islamists? Or do you want to think about it for a little while and remember all those times you heard about a guy killing someone because his wife/girlfriend/domestic partner was going to leave him, or already had?

Domestic Violence: Nearly Three U.S. Women Killed Every Day by Intimate Partners

3 women per day x 365 days per year = over 1000 deaths each year in the US alone. And that's not counting the new boyfriends, relatives, coworkers, and bystanders who are often killed as well.

These are not done as some grand heroic cause to save the world from a supposed satanic ideology and/or country.

I know.

I'm not saying they are.

Your insistence on seeing this through the "Islam is to blame" lens is making you blind to another possibility, one that is likely, commonplace, and supported by evidence in the OP article.

 

[sharon45]

That is why I put it all together, because there is absolutely no honest comparison between the two in this respect.

I'm not comparing them.

I'm pointing out that there's more than one likely motive for the guy in the OP to have gone on a killing spree.

And I agree.

Putting those phrases together the way you did completely discounts the likelihood the guy was a pissed off wife beater enraged by his spouse's escape and intent on having his revenge on a world that made it possible. But it's not any less likely than his being run through the radical factory by a recruiter.

I'm not going to debate on the odds either way, because there isn't enough information. At least one valid connection was given in the OP as a tweet. It doesn't matter as much the actual reason why said man carried out said attack, he is now being exploited as a hero, fighting the good fight of sorts against supposed oppression.

Religious belief can be a compounding factor. But I believe that people pick and choose which parts of their religious texts they embrace based on what they want it to say. Their religion doesn't dictate their behavior, it's used to justify them doing what they would have done anyway.

Yes, to some extent, but the terrorist network takes full advantage of these weaknesses. They use religion and many other facets to help dictate their brutal agenda.

I agree.

That still doesn't mean Islam is the reason the guy went on a killing spree. And it doesn't justify tarring all Muslims with what he did just because they're Muslims.

I agree, and as I pointed out further above, I certainly don't blame all Muslims on this matter. An example would be the San Bernardino area shooting near the end of 2015, where I saw reporters interview members of the same mosque the lead shooter attended. These people were about as meek and gentle as I have ever seen, but of course I do not personal know them, so I can not realistically judge correctly if their true nature was on display then or not. That is the idea with the Vegas shooter and the one from this OP, where we definitely need extra information to have a more honest view of them.

Another 'perfect gentleman' murders people would be just as good a thread title as the one Derec chose to post.

I think it is simply meant to be provocative, with concern about a much bigger issue, warning the curious at the outset, that they are going in for a rather bumpy ride.

 

[sharon45]

These are not done as some grand heroic cause to save the world from a supposed satanic ideology and/or country.

I know.

I'm not saying they are.

Your insistence on seeing this through the "Islam is to blame" lens is making you blind to another possibility, one that is likely, commonplace, and supported by evidence in the OP article.

Yet I don't blame Islam directly, just as I do not directly blame Christianity either for its evil deeds. I blame the believers who have created and/or supported these religions, but not all of them for the exact same things.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I don't see what is so difficult about accepting that beliefs influence actions and shape behaviour. Religions are sets of irrational and often dangerous beliefs. Religion isn't a mere language or cover story for what people will do anyway. Religion does cause harm and is to blameworthy.

That doesn't mean all religious people or all Muslims are monsters or even that most of them are (#notallmuslims), but it does mean Islam is a rather vile virus of the mind and we would be better off without it. Sadly that isn't likely to happen any time soon.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't see what is so difficult about accepting that beliefs influence actions and shape behaviour.

It isn't difficult. No one disagrees. So why do you persistent in that straw man?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The latter example is nowhere near as systematically preplanned and arranged for its deadly accuracy to further embolden others and inspire more of the same violence.

"Nowhere near as systematically preplanned and arranged for its deadly accuracy" - I don't think that's true. It seems to me that a lot of shootings at former spouses' workplaces, murder-suicides, and kidnapping-rape-strangulations are extensively preplanned and arranged for deadly accuracy. Not every one of course. Some are spur-of-the-moment attacks. But many of them are the result of planning, and I think the number of victims is close to or exceeds the number of victims of planned Muslim attacks.

You are falling victim to reporting bias. Those are the things that make the news but they're a small minority of total shootings. The typical shooting is a criminal shooting another criminal either in a robbery or to settle a score. Rarely do these cases make the news.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And you can doubt the sun rises in the east.

Shall I go find you some facts on the number of women (and bystanders) killed by abusive partners each year and compare it to the number of people killed in attacks committed by Islamists? Or do you want to think about it for a little while and remember all those times you heard about a guy killing someone because his wife/girlfriend/domestic partner was going to leave him, or already had?

You said "rampages". I read that to mean attacking more than just the partner.

You're still trying to blame his religious affiliation without even knowing if the guy was all that religious.

I said "socially acceptable". Even if he personally wasn't all that religious the notion of what's proper behavior is set by Islam over there.

I don't see any reasons to suppose he was in contact with a recruiter when his "significant personal and family problems, including those regarding family violence", and the fact his wife had run off to a place where he couldn't easily get her is sufficient to explain his murderous rage.

The recruiters control the media over there, personal contact wouldn't be needed.

 

[Arctish]

"Nowhere near as systematically preplanned and arranged for its deadly accuracy" - I don't think that's true. It seems to me that a lot of shootings at former spouses' workplaces, murder-suicides, and kidnapping-rape-strangulations are extensively preplanned and arranged for deadly accuracy. Not every one of course. Some are spur-of-the-moment attacks. But many of them are the result of planning, and I think the number of victims is close to or exceeds the number of victims of planned Muslim attacks.

You are falling victim to reporting bias. Those are the things that make the news but they're a small minority of total shootings. The typical shooting is a criminal shooting another criminal either in a robbery or to settle a score. Rarely do these cases make the news.

What are you on about? Shooting due to robbery and score settling is more common that murders related to domestic violence? So what?

The report I linked to comes from a study of violent crimes in the US. I am using this report to support my argument regarding the likelihood that violent misogyny and a history of domestic violence is indicative of the kind of man who'd go on a murderous rampage if his wife succeeded in fleeing the relationship.

If you'd like, you can argue that the guy's domestic situation had nothing to do with the attack. You can also provide properly sourced information that refutes the info I've provided. But please stop dragging the conversation off topic. We're talking about the attacker in the OP, whether the reason he attacked is because he's Muslim, and whether it's fair to tar all Muslims with the crimes he committed.

 

[WAB]

Palestinian terrorism sickens me.

Either give these people equal voting rights within Israel,

That's a nonstarter, because it would make the "One State" majority Arab Muslim.

or give them their full independence.

Palestinians could have had their own state in 1948, but they decided to attack Israel instead. Jordan and Egypt could have granted Palestinians their own state between 1949 and 1967, but never bothered to.
And since 1967 Israel has tried to work on the peace process, but the Palestinian leaders are literally terrorists and terrorist sympathizers, even the supposedly "moderate" Fatah.
Israel disengaged from Gaza in 2005 and was repaid by Hamas shooting rockets at Israel, proving that Palestinians are not willing to live in peace beside Israel. The only reason that there is a siege of Gaza is because of belligerent behavior by Gaza Palestinians.

So blaming Israel is ridiculous.

Seconded.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I don't see what is so difficult about accepting that beliefs influence actions and shape behaviour.

It isn't difficult. No one disagrees. So why do you persistent in that straw man?

This is where I got that "Straw man" from:

If religion shapes behavior, why don't all believers in a religion adapt and obey all the rules? Hmmm.

It isn't religion. Religion is just a convenient excuse to codify misogyny and bigotry.

Bigotry comes first. Always.

Bullshit. No, it doesn't always come first. Sometimes it does. Sometimes religion manifests it where it would not otherwise have appeared. And religion certainly often encourages it. Same for violence and many other negative social behaviours.

 

[laughing dog]

It isn't difficult. No one disagrees. So why do you persistent in that straw man?

This is where I got that "Straw man"....

Either you don't understand what a straw man is or you are engaging in more very shallow "thinking". Nothing there indicates that beliefs do not influence behavior and actions. Nothing whatsoever.

For some reason, you seem unable to grasp the difference between brainwashing and teaching. Any bigotry in religious teaching is the result of bigotry in the people involved in the religion. For example, some Christians belief homosexuality is wrong and they embrace that bigotry. Other Christians do not believe homosexuality is wrong. Clearly if the problem is Christianity (i.e the religion) and its teaching, then all Christians would embrace bigotry against homosexuals. But they do not. Some Christians are taught bigotry and hate towards homosexuals, yet they do not accept those teachings. Why is that?

For those Christians who are bigoted and hateful towards homosexuals, their religion may be the sole cause of their hatred, but it may not be. But if it is, you have to ask why is that true for some people but not others?

For some reason, you seem unable to grasp the simple concepts that religious teaching are not handed down from some higher being, but are the result of human interaction. Any bigotry in religious teaching is the result of bigotry in the people involved in the religion. Bigotry had to come first in order to get those ideas into the religion. Or are you going to accept that god (or aliens) implanted those ideas into the originators?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are falling victim to reporting bias. Those are the things that make the news but they're a small minority of total shootings. The typical shooting is a criminal shooting another criminal either in a robbery or to settle a score. Rarely do these cases make the news.

What are you on about? Shooting due to robbery and score settling is more common that murders related to domestic violence? So what?

The report I linked to comes from a study of violent crimes in the US. I am using this report to support my argument regarding the likelihood that violent misogyny and a history of domestic violence is indicative of the kind of man who'd go on a murderous rampage if his wife succeeded in fleeing the relationship.

If you'd like, you can argue that the guy's domestic situation had nothing to do with the attack. You can also provide properly sourced information that refutes the info I've provided. But please stop dragging the conversation off topic. We're talking about the attacker in the OP, whether the reason he attacked is because he's Muslim, and whether it's fair to tar all Muslims with the crimes he committed.

The point is you seem to think that laws that would help with mass shootings would cut gun violence. In practice there are a few mass shootings per year.

 

[Arctish]

What are you on about? Shooting due to robbery and score settling is more common that murders related to domestic violence? So what?

The report I linked to comes from a study of violent crimes in the US. I am using this report to support my argument regarding the likelihood that violent misogyny and a history of domestic violence is indicative of the kind of man who'd go on a murderous rampage if his wife succeeded in fleeing the relationship.

If you'd like, you can argue that the guy's domestic situation had nothing to do with the attack. You can also provide properly sourced information that refutes the info I've provided. But please stop dragging the conversation off topic. We're talking about the attacker in the OP, whether the reason he attacked is because he's Muslim, and whether it's fair to tar all Muslims with the crimes he committed.

The point is you seem to think that laws that would help with mass shootings would cut gun violence. In practice there are a few mass shootings per year.

That is completely off-topic, and unrelated to anything I've posted in this thread.