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More peaceful Muslims murder people ...

You didn't answer his question. Why should he feel ashamed?
You really do not understand why someone who routinely castigates an entire group of people based on the actions of one member of that group should not feel ashamed when a member of his group murders many people? Wow.
If his Islam was not a motivating factor or a catalyst then his Islam would not be relevant. As here, if his whiteness is not a motivating factor or catalyst then his whiteness would be irrelevant. Why is that difficult to grasp?
It isn't and that is clear from Toni's responses. So why are you asking?
Are you again claiming that ideology, politics and religion can never cause, motivate or catalyze negative behaviour?
Toni has never done that. Why do you persist in promoting such obvious straw men?

Yes. And if that was why he did it, then that becomes relevant.
Of course. Apparently you are unaware of the number of posters who do not wait to find out what are the motivating factors before forming definitive opinions about the motivations.
 
You really do not understand why someone who routinely castigates an entire group of people based on the actions of one member of that group should not feel ashamed when a member of his group murders many people? Wow.
If his Islam was not a motivating factor or a catalyst then his Islam would not be relevant. As here, if his whiteness is not a motivating factor or catalyst then his whiteness would be irrelevant. Why is that difficult to grasp?
It isn't and that is clear from Toni's responses. So why are you asking?
Are you again claiming that ideology, politics and religion can never cause, motivate or catalyze negative behaviour?
Toni has never done that. Why do you persist in promoting such obvious straw men?

Yes. And if that was why he did it, then that becomes relevant.
Of course. Apparently you are unaware of the number of posters who do not wait to find out what are the motivating factors before forming definitive opinions about the motivations.

The article linked in the OP says this of the man whose actions prompted this thread:

Authorities identified the gunman as 37-year-old Nimr Mahmoud Ahmed Jamal from the nearby village of Beit Surik. Israeli security services said he had “significant personal and family problems, including those regarding family violence” and that his wife had fled to Jordan several weeks ago.

So did he go on a shooting spree because of Islam? A lot of posters here seem to think so, and are using his actions as a means to attack all Muslims.

But what if his actions were the result of virulent misogyny and rage at a police force that protects women? That puts him a hell of a lot closer to some on this board than it does to Fatah.
 
Me: I mentioned what I think should be obvious: there is no motive which even approaches justification for such acts. Period. Full stop. To me, exploring motivations and trying to get into his head is simply maturbatory and unproductive and a huge waste of time.
Well, at least I, and the official investigators respectfully disagree.

OK, I'll bite: What motive approaches justification for such acts as this mass shooting at Las Vegas? In your opinion, I mean. Unless you really are part of the official investigation team in which case, I am really extremely interested in your insights into this investigation.


As far as 'letting the investigators do their jobs'--whoever suggested otherwise? But your notion that everybody concerned can judge on their own what is personally enough time demonstrates you do not understand what an investigation is or how an investigation works or the purpose of an investigation.
Your response illustrates that you did not understand my answer.

Perhaps I didn't. Maybe you could help me by explaining what you meant.

And there will be a next one. And a next one. And more after that.
Probably, but as the days go by, things are slowly coming to light, like the murderer scoping out another music festival earlier in Chicago, which could help prevent things of this nature from happening, or not anywhere near as often.

Again: I'll bite. HOW could understanding why he did this help prevent the next one? I am really serious here.

I can see how developing a profile of signs of an impending mass shooting might prevent the next one, but understanding motivation? That doesn't make sense. I mean, suppose he did it for fame: What is the way to prevent someone from wanting to kill people for the attention and notoriety--which they are not going to be around to enjoy because they are suiciding? I am really, really serious. I understand the need and desire to understand motivation. I just cannot see how understanding motivation will help in any way. Especially since this guy, like most mass murderers in the US, is a white guy, with probably at least average intelligence, and some decent degree of education. I know he had two failed marriages under his belt: do we work harder to get everyone into premarital and marital counseling? I don't think that's a bad idea, but I don't think this would prevent mass murders. Or murders, as much as I wish that it would.
 
And there will be a next one. And a next one. And more after that.
Probably, but as the days go by, things are slowly coming to light, like the murderer scoping out another music festival earlier in Chicago, which could help prevent things of this nature from happening, or not anywhere near as often.

How?
Yes, that is the very important question when people have known for many years the motive and MO to bombings in mosques, shrines, and markets, yet to this day, we still hear about a new deadly explosion of this sort from the news anyway.
 
You didn't answer his question. Why should he feel ashamed? Why are you making that implication?

How's the weather in that lonely little island in DeNial River?

What if a a Muslim committed mass murder. Period. End of sentence. Islam is not a motivating factor. Does Islam still matter?

If his Islam was not a motivating factor or a catalyst then his Islam would not be relevant.

Correct.

As here, if his whiteness is not a motivating factor or catalyst then his whiteness would be irrelevant.

I have no idea what any 'motivating factors' might be attached to this shooter. I would hazard a guess that his whiteness allowed him to bypass a lot of scrutiny as he stockpiled guns and ammunition.


Why is that difficult to grasp?

Your reach is pretty far off. I grasp quite well which hobby horses Derec likes to ride--and the champions who like to tag along with him. It ain't hard at all.


Are you again claiming that ideology, politics and religion can never cause, motivate or catalyze negative behaviour? Do you have any evidence or argument whatsoever why that would be? Why would you not believe people who explicitly tell you why they did it, including quotes from their holy texts etc?

Actually, I don't think that religion is the real catalyst for the horrid behavior that some use religion to justify--and to hide behind. The Salem witch trials were supposedly a case of religious extremism but really, it was greed and avarice, cloaked in strict religious adherence. The Crusades were mostly a land/money grab, with religion thrown in to motivate the actual soldiers--or rather, something they could claim to be motivated by. They were mercenaries, after all. Fame and fortune were the real motivation. Religion is just the pretty dress they threw over it all.


Is a white guy not susceptible to being motivated by Islam? Or by hatred of Islam? Black/brown people? Country music?

Yes. And if that was why he did it, then that becomes relevant.

Why is it relevant? Are you thinking we should ban Islam? Black people? Brown people? Country music?

I hate to break it to you but in the US, most of the mass shootings are committed by white guys. Why aren't we talking about eliminating them? Or restricting their access to firearms?

I mean, I know the reason but why not ask the obvious question? Why not make people look themselves in the mirror now and then?
 
Well, at least I, and the official investigators respectfully disagree.

OK, I'll bite: What motive approaches justification for such acts as this mass shooting at Las Vegas? In your opinion, I mean. Unless you really are part of the official investigation team in which case, I am really extremely interested in your insights into this investigation.
First off, I am not even in the profession, so of course I am not part of this investigation. Studying people and behavior remains just a personal interest. I didn't say that there was a justification, since I do not think that there honestly should be one. It was an absolutely ghastly act.

As far as 'letting the investigators do their jobs'--whoever suggested otherwise? But your notion that everybody concerned can judge on their own what is personally enough time demonstrates you do not understand what an investigation is or how an investigation works or the purpose of an investigation.
Your response illustrates that you did not understand my answer.

Perhaps I didn't. Maybe you could help me by explaining what you meant.
Because you were obviously asking a truly subjective question, which I pointed out that everyone can answer for themselves. While news is still flowing, albeit slowly, I, and many others have the patience to see where it eventually leads. When the action seems to stop, that could signal more closer to the time for concern.

And there will be a next one. And a next one. And more after that.
Probably, but as the days go by, things are slowly coming to light, like the murderer scoping out another music festival earlier in Chicago, which could help prevent things of this nature from happening, or not anywhere near as often.

Again: I'll bite. HOW could understanding why he did this help prevent the next one? I am really serious here.

I can see how developing a profile of signs of an impending mass shooting might prevent the next one, but understanding motivation? That doesn't make sense. I mean, suppose he did it for fame: What is the way to prevent someone from wanting to kill people for the attention and notoriety--which they are not going to be around to enjoy because they are suiciding?
I gave the bombing example above. People clearly have the information, but are they actually utilizing it? For my private studies, I focus a lot on politics, but it can work about as well with various other forms of conduct. I figure a possible motive along with the supposed MO, because I see them complement on different levels in order to use this to learn from that, then that can maybe predict more from the other once again, and vise versa.
 
OK, I'll bite: What motive approaches justification for such acts as this mass shooting at Las Vegas? In your opinion, I mean. Unless you really are part of the official investigation team in which case, I am really extremely interested in your insights into this investigation.
First off, I am not even in the profession, so of course I am not part of this investigation. Studying people and behavior remains just a personal interest. I didn't say that there was a justification, since I do not think that there honestly should be one. It was an absolutely ghastly act.

Yes, it was a horrific act.

Perhaps I didn't. Maybe you could help me by explaining what you meant.
Because you were obviously asking a truly subjective question, which I pointed out that everyone can answer for themselves. While news is still flowing, albeit slowly, I, and many others have the patience to see where it eventually leads. When the action seems to stop, that could signal more closer to the time for concern.

I think that I am approaching this differently than you are. I know that there will be a great deal of time and effort and money spent trying to figure out why this guy did this terrible thing. On one hand, I understand: it's horrible and it's impossible for most of us to comprehend how anyone could possibly just fire into a crowd, killing dozens of strangers and wounding hundreds. I understand that part of us (by us, I mean: society) believes that if we understand the reasons we can prevent the next attack. I disagree with the second part because I think the 'reasons' that we will come up with are just stories we tell each other and ourselves about what might make someone do such a terrible thing. Because it makes us feel better and like we can somehow control some of those circumstances and reduce the likelihood of another such act by someone else.

I think those are just stories we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better. I wish it weren't so. I wish we could discover some motivation, some set of circumstances that might be preventable or at least, predictive, of this kind of act. I don't think we will ever reach that. I think it is incomprehensible: beyond any understanding.

And worse, I think that if we understood the reasons, we still could neither predict nor prevent the next shooting.

I think the only way we have to prevent such acts is to limit access to such weaponry.

Now, I grew up in a household where there were guns, mainly used for hunting birds or small game. I knew how to handle them, and not to confuse them with playthings. I helped my father clean his guns, mount his new scope, watched him load his own shells in our garage. Helped to clean game after a hunt. My grandfather and uncle also hunted, and all of these people were quite expert in the use of firearms. I'm not afraid of guns. I don't hate guns. But I think that in the US, we have a very sick, very unhealthy relationship with guns and violence and that this has developed over the last 20-30 years. It's not nearly so much a part of our culture as mass media likes to make it out to be. Until quite recently, guns were simply something that country people used to hunt game and occasionally, to eliminate a predator going after chickens or livestock, as a matter of practical use, just as they used tractors and plows. Few city folk needed or wanted anything to do with a gun. Today, something like 80% of all the people in the US live in cities. But we have twice as many guns per capita today as we did 40-50 years ago---and far less practical need.

Probably, but as the days go by, things are slowly coming to light, like the murderer scoping out another music festival earlier in Chicago, which could help prevent things of this nature from happening, or not anywhere near as often.

I don't believe this, although I wish I could. It seems that each new shooting fuels the next, inspires the next, as they try to outdo the ones that came earlier. I don't think we've learned anything, not even from the mass shooting of tiny children. Sure, we could expect hotels to do a better job of screening guests, but we aren't doing a bang up job of getting them to look out for sex trafficking or drug trafficking now. I don't see this happening.

We have to limit access to guns.

I gave the bombing example above. People clearly have the information, but are they actually utilizing it? For my private studies, I focus a lot on politics, but it can work about as well with various other forms of conduct. I figure a possible motive along with the supposed MO, because I see them complement on different levels in order to use this to learn from that, then that can maybe predict more from the other once again, and vise versa.

I don't think we can or will learn enough to prevent another attack. I'd like to be wrong, but I frankly think it's the wrong strategy. We need to eliminate easy access to guns.
 
The article linked in the OP says this of the man whose actions prompted this thread:

Authorities identified the gunman as 37-year-old Nimr Mahmoud Ahmed Jamal from the nearby village of Beit Surik. Israeli security services said he had “significant personal and family problems, including those regarding family violence” and that his wife had fled to Jordan several weeks ago.

So did he go on a shooting spree because of Islam? A lot of posters here seem to think so, and are using his actions as a means to attack all Muslims.

But what if his actions were the result of virulent misogyny and rage at a police force that protects women? That puts him a hell of a lot closer to some on this board than it does to Fatah.

When you look into the background of most of the people who do Islamist attacks you'll find personal failure of some kind. The recruiters use that as a hook to guide the people into doing what they want.
 
I disagree with the second part because I think the 'reasons' that we will come up with are just stories we tell each other and ourselves about what might make someone do such a terrible thing. Because it makes us feel better and like we can somehow control some of those circumstances and reduce the likelihood of another such act by someone else.
It does mainly seem that way, except we out of the specialty's loop, can not honestly know what is being accomplished behind the scenes. Around the same thing with terrorism, having the deemed authorities not able to share with the general population a lot of things, because it would greatly compromise security.

Now, I grew up in a household where there were guns, mainly used for hunting birds or small game. I knew how to handle them, and not to confuse them with playthings. I helped my father clean his guns, mount his new scope, watched him load his own shells in our garage. Helped to clean game after a hunt. My grandfather and uncle also hunted, and all of these people were quite expert in the use of firearms. I'm not afraid of guns. I don't hate guns. But I think that in the US, we have a very sick, very unhealthy relationship with guns and violence and that this has developed over the last 20-30 years. It's not nearly so much a part of our culture as mass media likes to make it out to be. Until quite recently, guns were simply something that country people used to hunt game and occasionally, to eliminate a predator going after chickens or livestock, as a matter of practical use, just as they used tractors and plows. Few city folk needed or wanted anything to do with a gun. Today, something like 80% of all the people in the US live in cities. But we have twice as many guns per capita today as we did 40-50 years ago---and far less practical need.
Whether it is really true or not, I've heard recently that the average owner has 17 guns. By that statistic, this love affair with the gun is even more a part of America than the media makes it out to be.

I don't think we can or will learn enough to prevent another attack. I'd like to be wrong, but I frankly think it's the wrong strategy. We need to eliminate easy access to guns.
That looks constantly unlikely based on feeble public disgust and incentive.
 
The article linked in the OP says this of the man whose actions prompted this thread:



So did he go on a shooting spree because of Islam? A lot of posters here seem to think so, and are using his actions as a means to attack all Muslims.

But what if his actions were the result of virulent misogyny and rage at a police force that protects women? That puts him a hell of a lot closer to some on this board than it does to Fatah.

When you look into the background of most of the people who do Islamist attacks you'll find personal failure of some kind. The recruiters use that as a hook to guide the people into doing what they want.
A victim mentality to exploit.
 
It does mainly seem that way, except we out of the specialty's loop, can not honestly know what is being accomplished behind the scenes. Around the same thing with terrorism, having the deemed authorities not able to share with the general population a lot of things, because it would greatly compromise security.

Now, I grew up in a household where there were guns, mainly used for hunting birds or small game. I knew how to handle them, and not to confuse them with playthings. I helped my father clean his guns, mount his new scope, watched him load his own shells in our garage. Helped to clean game after a hunt. My grandfather and uncle also hunted, and all of these people were quite expert in the use of firearms. I'm not afraid of guns. I don't hate guns. But I think that in the US, we have a very sick, very unhealthy relationship with guns and violence and that this has developed over the last 20-30 years. It's not nearly so much a part of our culture as mass media likes to make it out to be. Until quite recently, guns were simply something that country people used to hunt game and occasionally, to eliminate a predator going after chickens or livestock, as a matter of practical use, just as they used tractors and plows. Few city folk needed or wanted anything to do with a gun. Today, something like 80% of all the people in the US live in cities. But we have twice as many guns per capita today as we did 40-50 years ago---and far less practical need.
Whether it is really true or not, I've heard recently that the average owner has 17 guns. By that statistic, this love affair with the gun is even more a part of America than the media makes it out to be.

I don't think we can or will learn enough to prevent another attack. I'd like to be wrong, but I frankly think it's the wrong strategy. We need to eliminate easy access to guns.
That looks constantly unlikely based on feeble public disgust and incentive.

On the run so I'm being a little sloppy here: it may or may not be true that the average gun owner owns 17 firearms. If this is true, it is a dramatic uptick in the number of firearms the average gunowner possesses. My father was pretty well outfitted with perhaps a total of five firearms when I was growing up. At his death, he owned 4. I know as a fact because we distributed them to surviving family members who would value them. All were for hunting only.
 
When you look into the background of most of the people who do Islamist attacks you'll find personal failure of some kind. The recruiters use that as a hook to guide the people into doing what they want.
A victim mentality to exploit.

When you look into the background of most of the people who commit this sort of crime you'll find personal failure of some kind. Sometimes the failure triggers the anger that leads to the attack. Sometimes the person is an angry asshole which leads to failure in social situations which leads to thoughts of getting revenge. So what?

The attack reported in the OP article might have had something to do with Islam. Or it might have everything to do with the guy being a misogynist thug who was pissed off his wife escaped to Jordan. Maybe what put him over the top was knowing that if he went to Jordan to get her, the Israelis wouldn't allow him to return home. Who knows?

The point is, this thread could have been titled "Another peaceful Incel murders people ..." and it would have been just as accurate, if not more.
 
A victim mentality to exploit.

When you look into the background of most of the people who commit this sort of crime you'll find personal failure of some kind. Sometimes the failure triggers the anger that leads to the attack. Sometimes the person is an angry asshole which leads to failure in social situations which leads to thoughts of getting revenge. So what?

The attack reported in the OP article might have had something to do with Islam. Or it might have everything to do with the guy being a misogynist thug who was pissed off his wife escaped to Jordan. Maybe what put him over the top was knowing that if he went to Jordan to get her, the Israelis wouldn't allow him to return home. Who knows?

The point is, this thread could have been titled "Another peaceful Incel murders people ..." and it would have been just as accurate, if not more.
You don't need to make the case to me, for I am not one who thinks supposed moderate Muslim groups need to come out in public and vehemently condemn attacks of this sort.
 
A victim mentality to exploit.

When you look into the background of most of the people who commit this sort of crime you'll find personal failure of some kind. Sometimes the failure triggers the anger that leads to the attack. Sometimes the person is an angry asshole which leads to failure in social situations which leads to thoughts of getting revenge. So what?

The attack reported in the OP article might have had something to do with Islam. Or it might have everything to do with the guy being a misogynist thug who was pissed off his wife escaped to Jordan. Maybe what put him over the top was knowing that if he went to Jordan to get her, the Israelis wouldn't allow him to return home. Who knows?

The point is, this thread could have been titled "Another peaceful Incel murders people ..." and it would have been just as accurate, if not more.

You're not rebutting us.

1) Personal failure of some kind.

2) Recruiter: You were a victim of <x> that caused this failure.

3) Recruiter: What you should do about it is attack <x>.

The recruiters are channeling the distress, increasing the chance they do something and increasing the chance that suicide is replaced with a suicide attack.
 
When you look into the background of most of the people who commit this sort of crime you'll find personal failure of some kind. Sometimes the failure triggers the anger that leads to the attack. Sometimes the person is an angry asshole which leads to failure in social situations which leads to thoughts of getting revenge. So what?

The attack reported in the OP article might have had something to do with Islam. Or it might have everything to do with the guy being a misogynist thug who was pissed off his wife escaped to Jordan. Maybe what put him over the top was knowing that if he went to Jordan to get her, the Israelis wouldn't allow him to return home. Who knows?

The point is, this thread could have been titled "Another peaceful Incel murders people ..." and it would have been just as accurate, if not more.

You're not rebutting us.

1) Personal failure of some kind.

2) Recruiter: You were a victim of <x> that caused this failure.

3) Recruiter: What you should do about it is attack <x>.

The recruiters are channeling the distress, increasing the chance they do something and increasing the chance that suicide is replaced with a suicide attack.
That is also about by the same design in Gaza, here with Hamas doned as the recruiter, tightening the screws on the people, turning them more into victims, who will ultimately be corrupted into blaming Israel instead.
 
When you look into the background of most of the people who commit this sort of crime you'll find personal failure of some kind. Sometimes the failure triggers the anger that leads to the attack. Sometimes the person is an angry asshole which leads to failure in social situations which leads to thoughts of getting revenge. So what?

The attack reported in the OP article might have had something to do with Islam. Or it might have everything to do with the guy being a misogynist thug who was pissed off his wife escaped to Jordan. Maybe what put him over the top was knowing that if he went to Jordan to get her, the Israelis wouldn't allow him to return home. Who knows?

The point is, this thread could have been titled "Another peaceful Incel murders people ..." and it would have been just as accurate, if not more.

You're not rebutting us.

1) Personal failure of some kind.

2) Recruiter: You were a victim of <x> that caused this failure.

3) Recruiter: What you should do about it is attack <x>.

The recruiters are channeling the distress, increasing the chance they do something and increasing the chance that suicide is replaced with a suicide attack.

You're right, I'm not rebutting you. I'm agreeing with you.

I'm saying your insight into the mindset of mass murderers and spree killers is correct, and that it applies to more than just the Muslim ones. It applies to Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Asatru, Shinto, Wiccan, animist, atheist, pantheist, Scientologist, and whatever-ist murderers, too. It applies to members of every faction of every sect of every religious group in the world, and to people of no religion at all.
 
You're not rebutting us.

1) Personal failure of some kind.

2) Recruiter: You were a victim of <x> that caused this failure.

3) Recruiter: What you should do about it is attack <x>.

The recruiters are channeling the distress, increasing the chance they do something and increasing the chance that suicide is replaced with a suicide attack.

You're right, I'm not rebutting you. I'm agreeing with you.

I'm saying your insight into the mindset of mass murderers and spree killers is correct, and that it applies to more than just the Muslim ones. It applies to Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Asatru, Shinto, Wiccan, animist, atheist, pantheist, Scientologist, and whatever-ist murderers, too. It applies to members of every faction of every sect of every religious group in the world, and to people of no religion at all.
Well, the Muslim extremists certainly have quite a factory of this, that is definitely going way over the other "members of every faction of every sect of every religious group in the world, and to people of no religion at all."
 
You're right, I'm not rebutting you. I'm agreeing with you.

I'm saying your insight into the mindset of mass murderers and spree killers is correct, and that it applies to more than just the Muslim ones. It applies to Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Asatru, Shinto, Wiccan, animist, atheist, pantheist, Scientologist, and whatever-ist murderers, too. It applies to members of every faction of every sect of every religious group in the world, and to people of no religion at all.
Well, the Muslim extremists certainly have quite a factory of this, that is definitely going way over the other "members of every faction of every sect of every religious group in the world, and to people of no religion at all."

There's no factory. There's just angry people attacking other people for their own reasons. Sure, the angry Muslims get a lot of media coverage and their attacks are frightening, but I doubt they're killing more people each year than the men who go on rampages when their wives and girlfriends try to end a relationship.

I jumped into this conversation when people were trying to assert that it was the guy's religion that caused him to kill. I think you and Loren are ignoring another possibility, one that is strongly hinted at in the OP article:

The Guardian said:
Israeli security services said he had “significant personal and family problems, including those regarding family violence” and that his wife had fled to Jordan several weeks ago.

It doesn't take faith in Allah to push a guy like that over the edge.
 
Well, the Muslim extremists certainly have quite a factory of this, that is definitely going way over the other "members of every faction of every sect of every religious group in the world, and to people of no religion at all."

There's no factory. There's just angry people attacking other people for their own reasons. Sure, the angry Muslims get a lot of media coverage and their attacks are frightening, but I doubt they're killing more people each year than the men who go on rampages when their wives and girlfriends try to end a relationship.
The latter example is nowhere near as systematically preplanned and arranged for its deadly accuracy to further embolden others and inspire more of the same violence.

I jumped into this conversation when people were trying to assert that it was the guy's religion that caused him to kill.
No, it doesn't have to be responsible for the whole cause, but it certainly is a large factor in far too many instances.
I think you and Loren are ignoring another possibility, one that is strongly hinted at in the OP article:

The Guardian said:
Israeli security services said he had “significant personal and family problems, including those regarding family violence” and that his wife had fled to Jordan several weeks ago.

It doesn't take faith in Allah to push a guy like that over the edge.
Yes, maybe for this exact case, although since he did have a weapon ready, planning could have been involved. With not that much information given yet, we can't know if he was really just acting alone either. Nevertheless, besides polilical and other societal problems, the faith and religious differences can still very strongly unite a people, and the cited tweet in the OP is simply another added manipulating aspect.
 
You're not rebutting us.

1) Personal failure of some kind.

2) Recruiter: You were a victim of <x> that caused this failure.

3) Recruiter: What you should do about it is attack <x>.

The recruiters are channeling the distress, increasing the chance they do something and increasing the chance that suicide is replaced with a suicide attack.
That is also about by the same design in Gaza, here with Hamas doned as the recruiter, tightening the screws on the people, turning them more into victims, who will ultimately be corrupted into blaming Israel instead.

"Also" implies it's somehow a different case. They are not merely parallel, they are identical. Hamas just has the advantage of being in a position to cause far more personal failure.

- - - Updated - - -

You're not rebutting us.

1) Personal failure of some kind.

2) Recruiter: You were a victim of <x> that caused this failure.

3) Recruiter: What you should do about it is attack <x>.

The recruiters are channeling the distress, increasing the chance they do something and increasing the chance that suicide is replaced with a suicide attack.

You're right, I'm not rebutting you. I'm agreeing with you.

I'm saying your insight into the mindset of mass murderers and spree killers is correct, and that it applies to more than just the Muslim ones. It applies to Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Asatru, Shinto, Wiccan, animist, atheist, pantheist, Scientologist, and whatever-ist murderers, too. It applies to members of every faction of every sect of every religious group in the world, and to people of no religion at all.

But what other religion has people trying to turn that failure into suicide attacks?
 
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