Multi-Billionaire Oprah Whines About Sexism & Income Inequality At DNC

[Toni]

Derec, AA removed giving preferential treatment to white males. It made it illegal to discriminate in the basis of sex, race, religion and national origins. Women, non-Christians and persons of color were finally allowed to apply for admissions and jobs previously denied them because of their race, gender, religion and national origins.

The rest is simply racist backlash because some people are too insecure to believe that white makes can actually compete without the centuries of preferential treatment they received.

Calling it racist backlash doesn't make it so.

My exhibit A on this: I was a lab assistant in the computer labs on campus. We had this one Hispanic outreach group that used the lab. They were very different than the regular students. The behavior of the teachers for it would have gotten them thrown out if it wasn't for the racial aspect. The students simply weren't college material--ended up being more work for us despite the class having its own assistants. (And the main one managed to corrupt a word processor document. It happened on occasion, during some slow time I worked out a recovery method that turned the corrupted structures into a few lines of crap at the top of an otherwise text file. Vastly beyond the expectations of the job and I only taught it to a few of the most technically competent people because it would be very easy to corrupt the whole floppy with an errant letter. Her document was of absolutely maximum length, the crap at the top pushed off an equivalent amount from the end--and she tried to get me fired over losing the lines from the end. I clearly did that because she wasn't white.)

I’m just going to let this post speak for itself.

 

[Toni]

By giving people previously excluded because of their race, gender or country of origin from the pool of applicants access to educational and career opportunities they would not have had prior to affirmative action.

This would be a good description of the original meaning of "Affirmative Action". However, what the term has quickly come to mean, and what it has meant ever since, is giving members of certain groups extra opportunities, and by extension reducing opportunities to members of other groups.

The intent was also to change people’s minds and perceptions of who belonged where. And to expand the pool of talent available to everyone.

If you discriminate against certain people in order to get more say blacks into a program that does not change perceptions of them belonging. If anything, it makes it worse. It underlines that that person did not get there by his or her own merit.

When it was first implemented it was probably the best solution. There used to be a social stigma from allowing blacks into higher positions etc. The heavy-handed approach broke that and that was a very good thing.

Social stigma????

Heavy handed approach???

 

[Toni]

Loren, I’m absolutely fed up with your insulting calling my viewpoint ‘fundamentalist faith. If you were not a mid, I’d have put you in ignore long ago. Knock it off. Until you learn to be more respectful and less insulting, I will not respond to anything you write.

It is galling that you choose such terminology on this particular site, especially since you are a moderator. It tells a lot more about you that you feel compelled to claim other people’s views are a matter of faith because you disagree —not because you present any superior arguments or ever, ever back your pov with data or studies. No, you assume that admissions directors and counselors have less knowledge abd understanding of who makes a good candidate for their programs and schools than you do, with absolutely zero demonstrated or even claimed expertise.

I’m done with you.

Look at your position. "Faith" is an accurate description, but I do not mean it in a religious context. You are completely ignoring whether your fundamental approach is right despite the support you provide for it clearly does not show that your approach would do any good.

Thank you for making my life easier.

 

[laughing dog]

If you account for SES, both your and Rhea’s experiences can easily be handwaved away as not discrimination.

And Toni and Rhea are handwaving explicit policies about awarding applicants points for being black as "not discrimination".
And are pretending that marked differences in average GPAs and MCAT scores are meaningless.

There you go again with a “whataboutism “.

I believe both realize such differences are not as important as you think.

Differences in SAT scores translate to differences in the rate at which people don't complete their degree.

After you explain why differences in SAT scores is relevant to a discussion in differences in MCAT scores and GPAs, please explain why your observation is relevant at all.

 

[Rhea]

Which is why Loren’s and Derec’s utterly unfactual and mertiless claims that discrimination is over are a fetid, steaming, pile of uninformed, privileged, horseshit.

The discrimination is not over. It is just reversed.
And your anecdote is from the 80s. That was 40 years ago, ffs!

You read all that and you saw only one anecdote?
And then you base your straw man on that?

No wonder you think discrimination is gone. When people tell you about it, you don’t have the memory to process what they said. It was right there in the post that it goes on and on for decades.

The first example I gave is when they said, explicitly, right out loud, “we won’t give you this job because you’re a woman and we don’t think women can do this work.” Already this was more than a decade after you and Loren had claimed new laws made discrimination go away. It hadn’t, and it kept going on for more decades after that. I gave several examples. They did not stop with the first one. They did not stop in the 80s. I said as much already.

Which is why your utterly unfactual and mertiless claims that discrimination is over are a fetid, steaming, pile of uninformed, privileged, horseshit.

 

[starwater]

... Toni has not been presenting her characterizations as a representation of the views of the "some white men" that you personally heard, and personally interpreted as expressing resentment, and personally decided you could mind-read as to precisely what it was they resented. She has been presenting her characterizations as a representation of the views of other members of this forum, including Loren and me in particular. She has been presenting her characterizations as a representation of any white people who aren't on board with affirmative action. And she has been presenting her characterizations as a representation of white males at large:

Toni is presenting it as a representation of a portion of white males at large. But you keep being you with your malacious imputations.

I quoted her presenting it as a representation of white males in general, and you quoted it back to me. So give it a rest.

I’ve had this discussion many times. For white males, the fact that they are no longer first in line for all good things feels like prejudice to them. It’s not. It just feels bad to them to be treated closer to how everyone else is treated.

That's a racist, sexist stereotype.

How is it racist? To any rational disinterested reader who is even moderately fluent in the language, it does not exhibit any trace that white men are inferior or that Toni dislikes them.

Sure it does. She would not accuse black females who don't get to be the (exclusive) first in line of that feeling like prejudice to them. When everyone is treated the same -- all first when that's practical, or in random order or first-come-first-served when serialization is for some reason necessary -- she assumes this feels unprejudiced to others and prejudiced to white males. That being true would be a character defect in white males, a form of moral inferiority.

None of that makes sense. First, whatever anyone might say about those of another race does not determine whether a statement is racist. Describing that black people have brown skin is an observation. No rational person would say it is racist because I would not describe white people as having brown skin.

Oh for the love of god! That's no different from arguing "'Mexicans are from Mexico' isn't racist; therefore 'Mexicans are rapists' isn't racist." She imputed a negative mental trait to white males, not a skin color and a sex.

If it makes you feel better to beat the dead horse of your desperate misinterpretation, you will have to do it without me because I refuse to waste my time on a hopeless cause.

Oh you forgot the silly emoticon! I will add it for you

 

[Emily Lake]

My sex is not an identity.

That's beyond absurd. Of course it is.

No, it is not. It's an objective fact.

My height is not an identity, it's an objective fact. My eye color is not an identity, it's an objective fact. My weight is not an identity, it's an objective fact. My age is not an identity, it's an objective fact.

 

[Emily Lake]

By giving people previously excluded because of their race, gender or country of origin from the pool of applicants access to educational and career opportunities they would not have had prior to affirmative action.

You're talking about giving people today extra access to make up for the fact that their grandparents didn't have access.

 

[Emily Lake]

recognizing that there are not white jobs or black jobs or make jobs or female jobs

I'd like to sign up to be a female sperm donor. I'd like to sign my husband up to be a male surrogate.

 

[Derec]

You're talking about giving people today extra access to make up for the fact that their grandparents didn't have access.

Not even necessarily their grandparents (or more likely these days great-grandparents). Just people who kinda sorta looked like them in that they had the same skin color.

 

[Emily Lake]

Which is why Loren’s and Derec’s utterly unfactual and mertiless claims that discrimination is over are a fetid, steaming, pile of uninformed, privileged, horseshit.

Neither Loren nor Derec claimed that discrimination is over.

 

[Toni]

I e

Which is why Loren’s and Derec’s utterly unfactual and mertiless claims that discrimination is over are a fetid, steaming, pile of uninformed, privileged, horseshit.

Neither Loren nor Derec claimed that discrimination is over.

Read post #651 where Derec seems to be saying that persons of color are no longer discriminated against nor were their parents or maybe their grandparents.

Derec and Loren both seem to say that white men face a lot of discrimination because they are white men.

 

[Toni]

By giving people previously excluded because of their race, gender or country of origin from the pool of applicants access to educational and career opportunities they would not have had prior to affirmative action.

You're talking about giving people today extra access to make up for the fact that their grandparents didn't have access.

You'd be naive to believe that persons of color, women and LGBTQA+ persons today do not suffer from discrimination based on their skin color, gender and sexual orientation. Certainly plenty of people who are or who resemble (to some people) people who are Hispanic or Middle Easterners can face discrimination, as can those who are or who are perceived to be Jewish or Palestinian/Muslim/Arab. Depending on where you live, Native Americans can face significant discrimination. Asians face discrimination. Because I'm white and many of my friends and acquaintances are academics or academic adjacent, it's pretty easy for me to think that at least in my little world, there is no more discrimination but unfortunately, that is absolutely untrue. I believe it was in this thread where I described a dear friend who is Asian and who has spoken English since early childhood, attended university and grad school in the US and who taught in academia for decades routinely had students complain to admin. that they had trouble understanding her excellent English (as in: barely any accent at all). For the most part, admin backed her up but if you think that does not take a toll, then you are quite mistaken. The same with her husband, and a lot of faculty I know personally. I've watched newly hired black administrators not last more than one academic year, quite recently. Racism, sexism and discrimination are alive and well.

Complaining that anyone who is female or a person of color was an AA --or more recently, a DEI hire is actually a form of bigotry and discrimination.

It would be lovely if it were all in the past but it's not.

It may well be the case that it is time to sunset Affirmative Action laws. I don't know the answer. But I do know that discrimination happens every single day in my small community--in a mostly blue state.

 

[laughing dog]

By giving people previously excluded because of their race, gender or country of origin from the pool of applicants access to educational and career opportunities they would not have had prior to affirmative action.

You're talking about giving people today extra access to make up for the fact that their grandparents didn't have access.

What Is "extra access" ?

 

[Emily Lake]

By giving people previously excluded because of their race, gender or country of origin from the pool of applicants access to educational and career opportunities they would not have had prior to affirmative action.

You're talking about giving people today extra access to make up for the fact that their grandparents didn't have access.

You'd be naive to believe that persons of color, women and LGBTQA+ persons today do not suffer from discrimination based on their skin color, gender and sexual orientation. Certainly plenty of people who are or who resemble (to some people) people who are Hispanic or Middle Easterners can face discrimination, as can those who are or who are perceived to be Jewish or Palestinian/Muslim/Arab. Depending on where you live, Native Americans can face significant discrimination. Asians face discrimination. Because I'm white and many of my friends and acquaintances are academics or academic adjacent, it's pretty easy for me to think that at least in my little world, there is no more discrimination but unfortunately, that is absolutely untrue. I believe it was in this thread where I described a dear friend who is Asian and who has spoken English since early childhood, attended university and grad school in the US and who taught in academia for decades routinely had students complain to admin. that they had trouble understanding her excellent English (as in: barely any accent at all). For the most part, admin backed her up but if you think that does not take a toll, then you are quite mistaken. The same with her husband, and a lot of faculty I know personally. I've watched newly hired black administrators not last more than one academic year, quite recently. Racism, sexism and discrimination are alive and well.

Complaining that anyone who is female or a person of color was an AA --or more recently, a DEI hire is actually a form of bigotry and discrimination.

It would be lovely if it were all in the past but it's not.

It may well be the case that it is time to sunset Affirmative Action laws. I don't know the answer. But I do know that discrimination happens every single day in my small community--in a mostly blue state.

Discrimination or racism? Is it legal backing for disparate treatment, or people being assholes for no good reason?

 

[Toni]

By giving people previously excluded because of their race, gender or country of origin from the pool of applicants access to educational and career opportunities they would not have had prior to affirmative action.

You're talking about giving people today extra access to make up for the fact that their grandparents didn't have access.

You'd be naive to believe that persons of color, women and LGBTQA+ persons today do not suffer from discrimination based on their skin color, gender and sexual orientation. Certainly plenty of people who are or who resemble (to some people) people who are Hispanic or Middle Easterners can face discrimination, as can those who are or who are perceived to be Jewish or Palestinian/Muslim/Arab. Depending on where you live, Native Americans can face significant discrimination. Asians face discrimination. Because I'm white and many of my friends and acquaintances are academics or academic adjacent, it's pretty easy for me to think that at least in my little world, there is no more discrimination but unfortunately, that is absolutely untrue. I believe it was in this thread where I described a dear friend who is Asian and who has spoken English since early childhood, attended university and grad school in the US and who taught in academia for decades routinely had students complain to admin. that they had trouble understanding her excellent English (as in: barely any accent at all). For the most part, admin backed her up but if you think that does not take a toll, then you are quite mistaken. The same with her husband, and a lot of faculty I know personally. I've watched newly hired black administrators not last more than one academic year, quite recently. Racism, sexism and discrimination are alive and well.

Complaining that anyone who is female or a person of color was an AA --or more recently, a DEI hire is actually a form of bigotry and discrimination.

It would be lovely if it were all in the past but it's not.

It may well be the case that it is time to sunset Affirmative Action laws. I don't know the answer. But I do know that discrimination happens every single day in my small community--in a mostly blue state.

Discrimination or racism? Is it legal backing for disparate treatment, or people being assholes for no good reason?

Not sure what you mean. I gave an example of someone who was being racially discriminated at her workplace for no good reason. I realize you may not be aware but these days, students are viewed as more like customers than people who are there to learn from professors who know more than the students about the subject being taught. In this case, their respective deans were supportive but if you think it dies not take a folly, you are mistaken, just as you would be mistaken if you believe that all deans are as supportive. In my university days ( second time) I was taking an intro to Econ course taught by an Iranian American woman. A few of the other students were makes who appeared to be of middle eastern origins. They quite openly challenged her in a very disrespectful manner. My impression was that they were behaving in that way because she was a woman. It was a small class—fewer than 30 people a d these men sat near enough to me that I could not help but see their low scores on tests, which only backed up my observation that they were not able to interpret simple graphs: they were not particularly good students of economics, in other words.

Instructors can be harassed abd discriminated against. Another friend kept his sexuality very closeted for fear of reprisals from some of the more conservative students. Normally we think if students as being more vulnerable and honestly, they usually are. But if they chose to make trouble for a particular professor, they certainly can. We all know that students have targeted faculty of they disagree with political stances the faculty member takes in class in the normal course of the subject matter. Sometimes the faculty members are forced to resign.

My student days were decades ago—abd decades after AA became the rule of the lane but the other examples are quite recent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Which is why Loren’s and Derec’s utterly unfactual and mertiless claims that discrimination is over are a fetid, steaming, pile of uninformed, privileged, horseshit.

Neither Loren nor Derec claimed that discrimination is over.

Correct. There certainly is some. There's certainly some in every direction--some people will discriminate against all groups other than their own. The question is whether the discrimination is widespread enough to warrant a heavy-handed approach like affirmative action and I do not think that is the case.

Pretty much all the evidence presented for AA is either based on the past or it's based on what's passed down to the next generation. Artificially leveling the playing field does absolutely nothing about either of these factors and thus doesn't provide a benefit to justify it's harm.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I e

Which is why Loren’s and Derec’s utterly unfactual and mertiless claims that discrimination is over are a fetid, steaming, pile of uninformed, privileged, horseshit.

Neither Loren nor Derec claimed that discrimination is over.

Read post #651 where Derec seems to be saying that persons of color are no longer discriminated against nor were their parents or maybe their grandparents.

There certainly is some discrimination. You'll never rid society of it. The question is how much.

Derec and Loren both seem to say that white men face a lot of discrimination because they are white men.

Yes, affirmative action discriminates against whites, Asians and males. As such, it causes harm--the question should be whether it creates enough benefit to justify this harm. Where do we see even an attempt to measure this benefit? It's always about measuring supposed discrimination and generally with studies you can drive an 18 wheeler through. But when you flip the problem over and look for whether there are confounders that are causing an effect you find them--and race generally is no longer significant when such things are considered. It's harder to tell with sex but it looks like being female is at this point an advantage--but that advantage will be lost if they have children.

When you see marketing all based on look at the problem you should think scam. Why aren't they telling you specifics about what the product does about the problem. These days AA looks very much like such a scam.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

By giving people previously excluded because of their race, gender or country of origin from the pool of applicants access to educational and career opportunities they would not have had prior to affirmative action.

You're talking about giving people today extra access to make up for the fact that their grandparents didn't have access.

You'd be naive to believe that persons of color, women and LGBTQA+ persons today do not suffer from discrimination based on their skin color, gender and sexual orientation. Certainly plenty of people who are or who resemble (to some people) people who are Hispanic or Middle Easterners can face discrimination, as can those who are or who are perceived to be Jewish or Palestinian/Muslim/Arab. Depending on where you live, Native Americans can face significant discrimination. Asians face discrimination.

The question is how much. Saying they face "discrimination" is not an adequate justification for affirmative action! Same as "pain" isn't a justification for morphine.

Because I'm white and many of my friends and acquaintances are academics or academic adjacent, it's pretty easy for me to think that at least in my little world, there is no more discrimination but unfortunately, that is absolutely untrue. I believe it was in this thread where I described a dear friend who is Asian and who has spoken English since early childhood, attended university and grad school in the US and who taught in academia for decades routinely had students complain to admin. that they had trouble understanding her excellent English (as in: barely any accent at all).

Sure it really was race? You're close to her, you're used to understanding her. I barely hear my wife's accent--but when put to an objective test she has a lot of trouble with Alexa.

For the most part, admin backed her up but if you think that does not take a toll, then you are quite mistaken. The same with her husband, and a lot of faculty I know personally. I've watched newly hired black administrators not last more than one academic year, quite recently. Racism, sexism and discrimination are alive and well.

And someone not lasting a year is proof it's discrimination???

Complaining that anyone who is female or a person of color was an AA --or more recently, a DEI hire is actually a form of bigotry and discrimination.

Someone who simply assumes they are a DEI hire is a bigot. But someone who considers them suspect until proven competent is simply responding to the fact that there are DEI hires.

It would be lovely if it were all in the past but it's not.

It's impossible for it to be all in the past so long as we continue to enforce discrimination in the form of affirmative action.

It may well be the case that it is time to sunset Affirmative Action laws. I don't know the answer. But I do know that discrimination happens every single day in my small community--in a mostly blue state.

1) You're taking a guilty-without-evidence approach, assuming that anything that could be interpreted as discrimination. But you're not considering that there might be other factors.

2) Affirmative Action inherently causes discrimination and thus it causes backlash. Thus the problem can never be solved so long as the laws exist. Especially when you fail to consider things like a criminal record excluding people from a lot of things. The population from which one can draw doesn't match up with the racial distribution in many cases.

I have no problem with going after actual discrimination. But statistical discrepancies are never more than a reason to take a quick look. A quick look that doesn't require mounting a defense so it doesn't impose an undue cost on a business.

 

[Toni]

By giving people previously excluded because of their race, gender or country of origin from the pool of applicants access to educational and career opportunities they would not have had prior to affirmative action.

You're talking about giving people today extra access to make up for the fact that their grandparents didn't have access.

You'd be naive to believe that persons of color, women and LGBTQA+ persons today do not suffer from discrimination based on their skin color, gender and sexual orientation. Certainly plenty of people who are or who resemble (to some people) people who are Hispanic or Middle Easterners can face discrimination, as can those who are or who are perceived to be Jewish or Palestinian/Muslim/Arab. Depending on where you live, Native Americans can face significant discrimination. Asians face discrimination.

The question is how much. Saying they face "discrimination" is not an adequate justification for affirmative action! Same as "pain" isn't a justification for morphine.

Because I'm white and many of my friends and acquaintances are academics or academic adjacent, it's pretty easy for me to think that at least in my little world, there is no more discrimination but unfortunately, that is absolutely untrue. I believe it was in this thread where I described a dear friend who is Asian and who has spoken English since early childhood, attended university and grad school in the US and who taught in academia for decades routinely had students complain to admin. that they had trouble understanding her excellent English (as in: barely any accent at all).

Sure it really was race? You're close to her, you're used to understanding her. I barely hear my wife's accent--but when put to an objective test she has a lot of trouble with Alexa.

For the most part, admin backed her up but if you think that does not take a toll, then you are quite mistaken. The same with her husband, and a lot of faculty I know personally. I've watched newly hired black administrators not last more than one academic year, quite recently. Racism, sexism and discrimination are alive and well.

And someone not lasting a year is proof it's discrimination???

Complaining that anyone who is female or a person of color was an AA --or more recently, a DEI hire is actually a form of bigotry and discrimination.

Someone who simply assumes they are a DEI hire is a bigot. But someone who considers them suspect until proven competent is simply responding to the fact that there are DEI hires.

It would be lovely if it were all in the past but it's not.

It's impossible for it to be all in the past so long as we continue to enforce discrimination in the form of affirmative action.

It may well be the case that it is time to sunset Affirmative Action laws. I don't know the answer. But I do know that discrimination happens every single day in my small community--in a mostly blue state.

1) You're taking a guilty-without-evidence approach, assuming that anything that could be interpreted as discrimination. But you're not considering that there might be other factors.

2) Affirmative Action inherently causes discrimination and thus it causes backlash. Thus the problem can never be solved so long as the laws exist. Especially when you fail to consider things like a criminal record excluding people from a lot of things. The population from which one can draw doesn't match up with the racial distribution in many cases.

I have no problem with going after actual discrimination. But statistical discrepancies are never more than a reason to take a quick look. A quick look that doesn't require mounting a defense so it doesn't impose an undue cost on a business.

I’m absolutely certain of my friend’s English skills and accent as I mentioned, she spoke English along with her maybe language from childhood, attended university and graduate school at very his universities in the US abd taught at American universities for over 30 years, as well as being active and in leadership positions in a number of organizations, was a faculty advisor for university organizations, founded an educational foundation in our community and has friends literally from all over the world, with English being the common language. I am aware that there are those Americans who, upon seeing someone who is not Caucasian, imm sisterly have a problem with their accent—no matter where anyone was born and raised. Any accent that she has is very slight and only would be a problem for someone who wanted it to be a problem.

I’ve worked for/with people from all over the world, from every continent except Antarctica and have friends and neighbors from all over as well. Yes, I’m accustomed to accents —and I definitely know people with much heavier accents, including from Australia.

How much discrimination and racism must one suffer to be entitled to relief?

Asking on behalf of butt hurt white men who cannot cope with seeing people who are t white and/or male compete for on equal footing and win and succeed at jobs they thought were by rights theirs.

Here’s sometii go by you may get: Trump has more than once mentioned immigrants taking black jobs. He may be re-elected POTUS because that’s just how common that sort of racist crap that is.