My city, Minneapolis, On Fire: a story about white nationalism and it's consequences

[Toni]

I don’t remember if among the options was to invest in minority owned corporations. Obviously that is something that any of us could choose to do ourselves. It would take some time and effort.

But do you think it's morally right to invest in a business based on the race of the principal owners? Or do you think it's only moral when you want to exclude white owners?

Until recently, people HAVE been investing based on the race of the WHITE principal/sole owners. That's been the default. Minority and female entrepreneurs have struggled to get a foot hold in markets, to get loans, to survive as many minority businesses were targeted, seized, burned, or otherwise driven out.

I think it is moral to invest in companies that share your values: protecting the environment, avoiding animal testing, and so on. Why not look for companies that have a strong investment in the communities where they are located? That are committed to liveable wages, good benefits, and so on?

What you are insisting is a down with whites policy is simply what a lot of people in smaller towns ---and larger ones--are doing now: supporting local. It's not just farmers' markets but it's also craft beer, etc. But for the most part, for many that's all had a white face on front. Just like everything else.

Sure, we're happy to support 'ethnic' restaurants and music and sports and other performance with not white faces. But why not be happy to support a black owned hardware store? Black owned electricians? Plumbers? Investors? Doctors? Lawyers? Accountants? And so on?

 

[George S]

Police brutality against black Americans is a huge problem in every way
except statistically.

 

[Politesse]

Police brutality against black Americans is a huge problem in every way
except statistically.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

Black Americans are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than White Americans, and they are 1.3 times likely to be unarmed at the time of their deaths. And that's an average; in some states, there isn't a huge problem, while in others the chance of death is as bad as 6x higher for Blacks than for Whites.

 

[George S]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

In 2017, 2018, 2019 more whites were killed than each of black, hispanic and other.

 

[Deepak]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

In 2017, 2018, 2019 more whites were killed than each of black, hispanic and other.

Unless you're seriously trying to argue that death is the only way to brutalize someone then this is specious reasoning. And even if you do, these stats are self-reported by departments so they're not exactly reliable.

Lots of data here https://www.joincampaignzero.org/research

 

[Derec]

Black Americans are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than White Americans,

They are also more likely to commit crimes, 5x as likely for homicide for example. Therefore, they are more likely to be at the receiving attention of police attention.
The proper statistic would be police shootings per police interaction, not police shootings by raw population share.

and they are 1.3 times likely to be unarmed at the time of their deaths.

Unarmed != not a threat justifying use of lethal force.

 

[George S]

The problem really is that the facts don't matter. I really meant it. Police brutality against black Americans is a huge problem in every way with one minor exception that doesn't matter much in reality. There is a problem with the perception that there is a wide conspiracy-level racist problem with policemen. If a study showed the race of the cop and the victim and the study showed that when it was white-kills black there was a difference in percentage from white-Asian, or white-white, or white-hispanic.
Black Americans are more likely to have an uncle who has been in prison than white Americans. Police have much more contact with black offenders than white offenders; disproportionate to population.

All too many people use violence as a means to an end. Statistics show that black Americans are more prone to violence as a group than any other. All of us want to stop that. Black Lives Matter because all lives matter.
Even with -- no, especially with -- the best of intentions there must be a limit on means. Perhaps the Antifa (communist Brownshirts) believe that the means justify their ends of a pure communist society where everyone is a karen and equally poor.
I know the dems intentions: Stop Trump by any means necessary.

But enough on ends not justifying means. Policemen today are not the policemen of my childhood in the 1940s. They knew the neighborhood and the people. They knew them by name. They knew who was passing through. They came when called (still do) and were assisted by citizens if necessary. Sometimes there was street justice not seen today -- a cop lets the kid off with a stern warning since it is his first crime. Now, though, the policemen are the enemy of black Americans whether justified or not. They don't know them at all, much less by name.

Excessive use of force by any individual policeman should be dealt with by the courts. There is a recent example, on its face at least, of same. A MEMORIAL march would have had black and white and pink and brown and even Yoda linking arms.
But a race-oriented protest?
And, in my opinion having worked in Minneapolis for a year, it may have well started out as a memorial. Then what happened? Antifa did not let a good crisis go to waste and more people died. Many more than one.

 

[Politesse]

Excessive use of force by any individual policeman should be dealt with by the courts.

There would be no protests if this had happened.

And I'm certain you've been living in a cave, if you think that these protests have only been waged by black people. There are people of every race joining hands against these injustices in every American city, just as you claim to want.The only people who oppose them are people like you, muttering racist dogmas and ignoring reality. It is not 1940, and 1940 was not a good time to be Black in the United States.

 

[Toni]

Excessive use of force by any individual policeman should be dealt with by the courts.

There would be no protests if this had happened.

And I'm certain you've been living in a cave, if you think that these protests have only been waged by black people. There are people of every race joining hands against these injustices in every American city, just as you claim to want.The only people who oppose them are people like you, muttering racist dogmas and ignoring reality. It is not 1940, and 1940 was not a good time to be Black in the United States.

If it had been happening and if police officers were held to the same standards as the person killed.

Excessive force MUST be dealt with, starting with recruitment and education and training, with education and training to be continuous and ongoing.

 

[George S]

Excessive use of force by any individual policeman should be dealt with by the courts.

There would be no protests if this had happened.

And I'm certain you've been living in a cave, if you think that these protests have only been waged by black people. There are people of every race joining hands against these injustices in every American city, just as you claim to want.The only people who oppose them are people like you, muttering racist dogmas and ignoring reality. It is not 1940, and 1940 was not a good time to be Black in the United States.

Amen!
When I grew up we had a Jewish family in town. One black family. There was one Italian family. Our minorities in that small town were just folks. The black family moved to Milwaukee so the girl attended her senior year there becoming the first black to graduate H.S. in the state. We were so proud. She was one of us.
So, yes, the policemen I knew knew me. We were isolated in a little island of Germany or Switzerland -- countries from which many had come.

My initial reaction was dismay at no immediate arrest. I supported protesting that. And then Antifa did not let a good crisis go to waste.

 

[ZiprHead]

My initial reaction was dismay at no immediate arrest. I supported protesting that. And then Antifa did not let a good crisis go to waste.

In part of a June 1 internal intelligence assessment of the protests seen by Reuters, U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) officials said most of the violence appears to have been driven by opportunists.

The assessment, prepared by the department’s intelligence and analysis unit, said there was some evidence based on open-source and DHS reporting that the anti-fascist movement Antifa may be contributing to the violence, a view shared by some local police departments in public statements and interviews with Reuters.

U.S. assessment finds opportunists drive protest violence, not extremists

 

[Deepak]

My initial reaction was dismay at no immediate arrest. I supported protesting that. And then Antifa did not let a good crisis go to waste.

In part of a June 1 internal intelligence assessment of the protests seen by Reuters, U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) officials said most of the violence appears to have been driven by opportunists.

The assessment, prepared by the department’s intelligence and analysis unit, said there was some evidence based on open-source and DHS reporting that the anti-fascist movement Antifa may be contributing to the violence, a view shared by some local police departments in public statements and interviews with Reuters.

U.S. assessment finds opportunists drive protest violence, not extremists

Even if it weren't decidedly false, it's a perverse sentiment.

The plight of the downtrodden is righteous, and I would support it - but some other group of people that I don't like did things I don't support so fuck the downtrodden group

Where's the outrage with the police act in excess? Anyone remember this? https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryla...d-ci-gttf-testimony-drugs-20180202-story.html

 

[Toni]

U.S. assessment finds opportunists drive protest violence, not extremists

Even if it weren't decidedly false, it's a perverse sentiment.

The plight of the downtrodden is righteous, and I would support it - but some other group of people that I don't like did things I don't support so fuck the downtrodden group

Where's the outrage with the police act in excess? Anyone remember this? https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryla...d-ci-gttf-testimony-drugs-20180202-story.html

The outrage at police excess is in the streets all over the US—and beyond. Autocrats like Teump are doing their best to suppress.

 

[Worldtraveller]

What wrong with being a white nationalist?

I am one.

Pretty sure you answered your own question right here.

Thanks for that.

 

[Deepak]

The outrage at police excess is in the streets all over the US—and beyond. Autocrats like Teump are doing their best to suppress.

No doubt - that question was specifically directed to the people who make the argument that they'd support the right side if only their sense of tone and decorum were appeased.

It's naked hypocrisy because that requirement for perfection never cuts in the other direction.A recorded killing, like in the George Floyd example, could happen once a day every day, and there wouldn't be a peep from the authoritarians, they'd be waxing poetic about how good minorities were in the Good-Old-Days^TM

 

[Derec]

If it had been happening and if police officers were held to the same standards as the person killed.
Excessive force MUST be dealt with, starting with recruitment and education and training, with education and training to be continuous and ongoing.

I agree with the second sentence, but not the first. Different standards apply to police officers because of their jobs. Police are there to enforce the law which includes confronting suspects and thus have a wider authorization for legitimate use of physical force than a civilian.

 

[Derec]

There would be no protests if this had happened.

Chauvin got charged and the riots still happened.

And I'm certain you've been living in a cave, if you think that these protests have only been waged by black people. There are people of every race joining hands against these injustices in every American city, just as you claim to want.The only people who oppose them are people like you, muttering racist dogmas and ignoring reality.

Just because somebody disagrees with the protests, doesn't mean one is racist.

It is not 1940, and 1940 was not a good time to be Black in the United States.

I agree. I definitely do not want to go back to those days. However, I disagree with racial activists as well. We will only fix the race problem in US if we treat people like individuals, not carve out even more race-based privileges. That mistake was already made in 1960s with so-called "affirmative action" and nonsense like "critical race theory". Activists want even more of it, not less. That would be compounding the mistake.

 

[Jarhyn]

Chauvin got charged and the riots still happened.


Just because somebody disagrees with the protests, doesn't mean one is racist.

It is not 1940, and 1940 was not a good time to be Black in the United States.

I agree. I definitely do not want to go back to those days. However, I disagree with racial activists as well. We will only fix the race problem in US if we treat people like individuals, not carve out even more race-based privileges. That mistake was already made in 1960s with so-called "affirmative action" and nonsense like "critical race theory". Activists want even more of it, not less. That would be compounding the mistake.

Chauvin got charged. After the riots. The others only got charges in the last couple days. And in other cities, it isn't about this incidentm it's about all the incidents in those cities; this is just the nucleation event to say "no more".

Your grasp on causality seems weak.

 

[Derec]

Until recently, people HAVE been investing based on the race of the WHITE principal/sole owners. That's been the default. Minority and female entrepreneurs have struggled to get a foot hold in markets, to get loans, to survive as many minority businesses were targeted, seized, burned, or otherwise driven out.

By "recently" you mean 60 years ago or more. In any case, two wrongs do not make a right.
These days the opposite is actually true. Many cities preferentially give contracts to "minority" (in a city like Atlanta, blacks are the majority and yet get the minority contracts) and female-owned businesses.

I think it is moral to invest in companies that share your values: protecting the environment, avoiding animal testing, and so on. Why not look for companies that have a strong investment in the communities where they are located? That are committed to liveable wages, good benefits, and so on?

So you disagree with Jarhyn that the race of the owners should matter?

What you are insisting is a down with whites policy is simply what a lot of people in smaller towns ---and larger ones--are doing now: supporting local. It's not just farmers' markets but it's also craft beer, etc. But for the most part, for many that's all had a white face on front. Just like everything else.

I do not care about race of the owners. But I do love craft beer. Is it wrong for me to drink SweetWater or Scofflaw beers, both local breweries, just because they were founded by white guys?

Sure, we're happy to support 'ethnic' restaurants and music and sports and other performance with not white faces. But why not be happy to support a black owned hardware store? Black owned electricians? Plumbers? Investors? Doctors? Lawyers? Accountants? And so on?

I am happy to do that. I just think it's wrong to support a black owned hardware store BECAUSE it's black owned. When I chose a business I do not care what the race of the owners is. I look at their products/services and price.

 

[Deepak]

Chauvin got charged and the riots still happened.


Just because somebody disagrees with the protests, doesn't mean one is racist.

It is not 1940, and 1940 was not a good time to be Black in the United States.

I agree. I definitely do not want to go back to those days. However, I disagree with racial activists as well. We will only fix the race problem in US if we treat people like individuals, not carve out even more race-based privileges. That mistake was already made in 1960s with so-called "affirmative action" and nonsense like "critical race theory". Activists want even more of it, not less. That would be compounding the mistake.

Chauvin got charged. After the riots. The others only got charges in the last couple days. And in other cities, it isn't about this incidentm it's about all the incidents in those cities; this is just the nucleation event to say "no more".

Your grasp on causality seems weak.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/i-cant-breathe-timeline-of-george-floyd-protests/1864338