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My experiences that suggest an intelligent force exists

The fact that you are now arguing about whether or not a skull is equivalent to a vat demonstrates that this line of questioning is useless.

Taking the outside universe seriously is useful. (or seems to be useful, if you must)

and why would you have your mouth open while changing diapers?
 
What is the difference?
When the infant pees into our mouth during a diaper change, the difference is whether

1) shit happens
2) someone made that shit happen to me because they're a dick
or maybe
3) I made that shit happen to myself...because I am a dick.

Then we would know whether or not to be angry at someone* for having to brush our teeth for twenty minutes...



*meaning, of course, someone other than the infant, who probably isn't the architect of the moment, and a separate issue from being mad at the wife who cannot stand because she's laughing too hard

I guess I should have said, there is no way for us to tell the difference, because we are brains in a skull, so from our relative perspectives (the only ones that exist) we can’t ever know. There is never going to be a way for us to know. Know in the epistemological sense, as in directly experience.

I don’t mean that in a poetic or philosophical sense; I mean that in a literal sense. It’s not physically possible for a construct of our brain to ever directly experience anything other than the brain. That’s just a brute fact of our existence. “We” are the animated analogues of brains in skulls.
 
The fact that you are now arguing

It’s not an argument, it’s an observation of fact.

this line of questioning is useless.

Define “use” then, because I don’t get why you’re so strangely upset over my observations on brute facts of our existence.

Taking the outside universe seriously is useful. (or seems to be useful, if you must)

I never argued against it. All I’ve done is pointed out that one can only accept its existence, never prove its existence (or, rather, never directly experience it). We derive its existence, as we derive ALL knowledge (again, in the epistemological sense).

and why would you have your mouth open while changing diapers?

Not me.
 
I can only reiterate my refusal to engage in arguments about Solipsism, or anything resembling solipsism. Better minds than mine have exhausted the subject, and I'm smart enough to let it go. The argument over whether we are in skulls or vats is a solipsism adjacent question. I will have none of it, and urge you not to waste your time either.

And as for the meaning of 'useful,' I don't waste my time with semantic arguments either, as I have repeatedly made clear. If you are unclear as to what I mean when I say 'useless' or 'Solipsism,' you have all the knowledge in the world at your fingertips.

The only reasonable thing to do is to accept that the universe exists as a brute fact, as you say. Whether the universe is or isn't a simulation, and why people might think that, might be a worthwhile argument, so long as it doesn't degenerate into solipsism.
 
.....There is no reason to simulate reality to the extreme level of detail that I experience, ASSUMING I AM A BACKGROUND CHARACTER.
I think there is at least one reason. For example what if a person wanted to put themselves in a Groundhog Day scenario but not be aware of it (I would do this to myself if I could). (in "The Orville" a character consented to be put in a simulation then their knowledge of that was wiped) The other characters in the scenario have everyday lives but there is a chance they'd interact with the main player character so they'd have to be realistic in order for the main character to not suspect it is just a simulation (he might ask them deep questions about their life and consciousness). And even then the background characters might not notice anything particularly unusual

I assume that because I am not a solipsist, and I don't base my worldview on the idea that I am special and unique.
In Groundhog Day there are thousands of NPCs (background characters).

A possibility is that you are in a simulation of a relatively ordinary person but you forgot your real identity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szzVlQ653as
Just about any person's life could be interesting to simulate

That picture is a still from the movie "Honey, I shrunk the Kids." Which was done with physical models. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pV0BARbe0...he+Kids+1989+Disney+movie+special+effects.jpg
Yes but it is a preview of what I think will be possible in real-time graphics in the coming years.

Everything else you posted is Solipsism. You don't seem to get it.
I think it still makes sense to some degree based on possible reasons people might create a simulation.
 
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I can only reiterate my refusal to engage in arguments about Solipsism, or anything resembling solipsism. Better minds than mine have exhausted the subject, and I'm smart enough to let it go. The argument over whether we are in skulls or vats is a solipsism adjacent question. I will have none of it, and urge you not to waste your time either.

And as for the meaning of 'useful,' I don't waste my time with semantic arguments either, as I have repeatedly made clear. If you are unclear as to what I mean when I say 'useless' or 'Solipsism,' you have all the knowledge in the world at your fingertips.

The only reasonable thing to do is to accept that the universe exists as a brute fact, as you say. Whether the universe is or isn't a simulation, and why people might think that, might be a worthwhile argument, so long as it doesn't degenerate into solipsism.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, believe it or not. We all have one fundamental choice to make; believe our senses--based on the evidence--and act accordingly, or don't. For those that choose not to, they are forever lost imo. They can't ever do anything but sit in a corner rocking back and forth, basically.
 
I can only reiterate my refusal to engage in arguments about Solipsism, or anything resembling solipsism. Better minds than mine have exhausted the subject, and I'm smart enough to let it go. The argument over whether we are in skulls or vats is a solipsism adjacent question. I will have none of it, and urge you not to waste your time either.

And as for the meaning of 'useful,' I don't waste my time with semantic arguments either, as I have repeatedly made clear. If you are unclear as to what I mean when I say 'useless' or 'Solipsism,' you have all the knowledge in the world at your fingertips.

The only reasonable thing to do is to accept that the universe exists as a brute fact, as you say. Whether the universe is or isn't a simulation, and why people might think that, might be a worthwhile argument, so long as it doesn't degenerate into solipsism.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, believe it or not. We all have one fundamental choice to make; believe our senses--based on the evidence--and act accordingly, or don't. For those that choose not to, they are forever lost imo. They can't ever do anything but sit in a corner rocking back and forth, basically.

Natural selection continues to weed out the really crazies, so we're left with fringe crazies, not crazy enough to receive Darwin Awards.

Can I state the any true solipsists died a long time ago? Any that Natural Selection offers up presently are quickly consumed by their crazy.
 
....We all have one fundamental choice to make; believe our senses--based on the evidence--and act accordingly, or don't. For those that choose not to, they are forever lost imo. They can't ever do anything but sit in a corner rocking back and forth, basically.
In post #20 I described how there was a time when I was believing that there is another side to reality. I hypnotised myself and was catatonic some of the time. I lost some memories. People would often act as if their senses are useful eventually and so begin to do things. Also medication can help (like in the case of the "Awakenings" movie involving catatonic patients)

BTW since about the year 2000 (when I read old Ken Keyes books about we being a "perfect observer" and playing a role) I would ocassionally get the feeling that I'm in a dream. His books stopped me from having spoken thoughts as much as possible. When I feel like I'm in a dream my senses feel numb and I can lose a sense of hunger/fullness during a meal. And when I talk I kind of feel an echo between hearing it and sensing what I'm saying.
 
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....We all have one fundamental choice to make; believe our senses--based on the evidence--and act accordingly, or don't. For those that choose not to, they are forever lost imo. They can't ever do anything but sit in a corner rocking back and forth, basically.
In post #20 I described how there was a time when I was believing that there is another side to reality. I hypnotised myself and was catatonic some of the time. I lost some memories. People would often act as if their senses are useful eventually and so begin to do things. Also medication can help (like in the case of the "Awakenings" movie involving catatonic patients)

BTW since about the year 2000 (when I read old Ken Keyes books about we being a "perfect observer" and playing a role) I would ocassionally get the feeling that I'm in a dream. His books stopped me from having spoken thoughts as much as possible. When I feel like I'm in a dream my senses feel numb and I can lose a sense of hunger/fullness during a meal. And when I talk I kind of feel an echo between hearing it and sensing what I'm saying.

From what you’ve written, it would appear as if you are dealing with a brain that is not functioning within optimal operating parameters. I’m wording that delicately because I don’t mean to insult; it’s just (evidently) the conditions you’re dealing with.

But, of course, since they are your experiences, you don’t know any different, other than in comparison to what others tell you about their own experiences. And perhaps during certain periods, you have moments where you sense that something is off, shall we say? We see this in many different aspects of brain function (or “mal” function as the case may be), such as schizophrenia, Alzheimer’s, brain damage from trauma or birth, etc. Which certainly argues that there is a baseline optimal functioning state and degrees away from it.

But who is to say that your experiences are any more or less legitimate than any others? Every experience any self has is constructed by the brain. They are always after any fact, never concurrent. It may be nano-seconds after, but there is a latency between something that the body directly experiences and what the brain processes and imbues to the analogue “self”—which has become the primary identity of the body, regardless of the fact that it’s a secondary construction.

We simply act as if it is all instantaneous and continuous because that serves the best function. But interrupt that function (through various means as mentioned previously, but also through such things as sleep, drugs, alcohol, oxygen depletion, etc) and the effect on the constructed self is readily apparent. Indeed, sleep is an excellent example of what I’m getting at, because there is a whole process that goes on, where the body/brain prepares for the “self’s” experience in the dream state by releasing drugs that paralyse the muscles (so we don’t harm ourselves as a result of the self reacting to anything in the dream state).

The point of all of this is to say that, evidently the body/brain is in constant real time direct interraction with an “external” objective reality—and maintains that connection to the best of its ability and under certain physical constraints—even if the part of the brain (whatever it may be) that maintains the animated, constructed self is malfunctioning.

Iow, we—the “self”—may not be able to trust what we are experiencing, but we can always trust that our bodies know what it is experiencing. That’s what it’s important to be in “tune” with one’s body and why excerize is important and meditation is important, etc.
 
.....Also, if you have been following the news lately, it is plenty clear that Elon Musk is insane. Why would you invoke him as an authority?
BTW it looks like Elon Musk has also founded OpenAI which is a not for profit AI research company.
Here is something that they are working on: (a robot hand that learnt to manipulate a cube)

This organisation makes me even more impressed with him.
 
.....But who is to say that your experiences are any more or less legitimate than any others? Every experience any self has is constructed by the brain. They are always after any fact, never concurrent. It may be nano-seconds after, but there is a latency between something that the body directly experiences and what the brain processes and imbues to the analogue “self”—which has become the primary identity of the body, regardless of the fact that it’s a secondary construction....
In the case of hallucinations, the body might not have actually experienced anything. But in my case I was just intrepreting my experiences in another way - I forgot who people were and thought things were kind of happening magically by seeing the experiences as metaphors.

...We simply act as if it is all instantaneous and continuous because that serves the best function. But interrupt that function (through various means as mentioned previously, but also through such things as sleep, drugs, alcohol, oxygen depletion, etc) and the effect on the constructed self is readily apparent. Indeed, sleep is an excellent example of what I’m getting at, because there is a whole process that goes on, where the body/brain prepares for the “self’s” experience in the dream state by releasing drugs that paralyse the muscles (so we don’t harm ourselves as a result of the self reacting to anything in the dream state).
I think I was highly dehydrated at the time. My head was overheating (perhaps sweating) but my solution was to drench my head - not to drink water - but drenching my head stopped the discomfort. My father was offering me water but I interpreted that as an offer from the game to receive some help (which I declined - I wanted something bigger - I wanted my dream girl to appear). From some research it looks like dehydration can lead to psychosis.
 
It can indeed. Which, once again, certainly argues for the fact that "we" (the "self" or "I" or "consciousness" whatever you want to call it) are not trustworthy observers and that all experience should be critically distrusted in favor of instead allowing the body to go on "autopilot" if you will, especially during such times.

Instead it seems like many people--certainly throughout history--have instead insisted that what the self experiences must be "real" and that they spoke to God and God spoke to them and the like. There is something uplifting about the understanding that it is actually the brain that is our model for "God" and that what we've been describing for generations in our folklore and religions has actually been a reflection of how our brains generate/animate the analogue self.

The AS, after all has magical qualities in the sense that it can explore dreamscapes and have the kinds of experiences you are describing in a myriad of different ways (i.e., something as simple as dehydration or sleep deprivation). It "exists" while at the same time is just an algorithm; a synaptic pattern of firing neurons. Much like a Pixar character, there is no actual there there, but the illusion of it. And yet, Pixar films are some of the greatest films of all time.

So, it's not that I'm arguing for exclusion or denial or even primacy; I'm just pointing out that it would seem the body has its detectors well in place and many redundant circuits, if you will, such that, when "we" (the AS) find ourselves in a confusing state, the body can be relied upon to drive us home. And if more people that have issues with their perceptions--which is everybody, certainly as time passes and the body/brain decays--would understand that ALL experience is generated by the brain, we might be able to better regulate periods where the malfunction can be turned back into function in a "guided" sense.

By (ironically) taking our "selves" off of auto-pilot--and understanding how those selves are animated and that everything (for them) is brain-generated--periods of even extreme instances like dementia and schizophrenia may be less traumatic for those going through them. Iow, understanding how our brains animate and maintain our sense of self may help people when they find themselves in times off course. I know in my own experiences with hallucinogenic drugs--most notably the first time I tripped on mushrooms--remembering that the extreme hallucinations I did not expect were all internally generated allowed me to keep my sanity, while there are many stories of others undergoing similar "bad" trips that never recovered.
 
syn·chro·nic·i·ty
ˌsiNGkrəˈnisədē/Submit
noun
1.
the simultaneous occurrence of events that appear significantly related but have no discernible causal connection.

Once when I flipped a light switch I simultaneously saw lightning followed by thunder. I never touched that switch again.
 
syn·chro·nic·i·ty
ˌsiNGkrəˈnisədē/Submit
noun
1.
the simultaneous occurrence of events that appear significantly related but have no discernible causal connection.

Once when I flipped a light switch I simultaneously saw lightning followed by thunder. I never touched that switch again.

You got thunder? No fair. All I ever get is a click.
 
syn·chro·nic·i·ty
ˌsiNGkrəˈnisədē/Submit
noun
1.
the simultaneous occurrence of events that appear significantly related but have no discernible causal connection.
Yes according to naturalism that isn't in a simulation there could be no casual connection. But I find it interesting to think about.
It is less interesting when you think about it as we notice patterns or coincidences while discarding the noise.

You are in a grocery store and a song that was in your head all of a sudden plays over the speakers. OMG!!! In other news, you didn't notice the other 6 or so songs that played or that in 20 other trips to the store, this coincidence didn't happen.

Synchronicity came about from Carl Jung who was wondering why similar experiences were reported among people vast distances from each other. The possibilities were endless, but the truth is much less exciting. Our minds are wired in such a way to see similar patterns or imagery (archetypes).
 
Jimmy Higgins:
When I was gassing myself in my car, there were only 2 songs. Both seemed significant.

In my life there are hardly any times when I'd try to connect with God. The first was when I felt a strong tingling after I said "I don't care how bad it feels, I want to know the truth" in regards to YEC. A few months later I was deconverted by a former creationist.

From post #21
....BTW the place I'm renting is extremely convenient in many ways. I said to my wife (and others?) that if we got it I'd believe in God. We got the place and I said "I didn't necessarily mean I'd believe in the Christian God"....
A couple of days ago I didn't go to church (my wife didn't really want to go and the topic wasn't that good) but my flatmates went. They organised for someone from church to visit my flat tomorrow. It sounds like he used to live in our flat a few years ago! Besides my wife's mother, that's the only person that I know who lives or has lived in our same suburb. I'll find out more information tomorrow. BTW I noticed a yin-yang symbol tattoo on a finger and asked him about it later since I knew he was studying theology or something.

So anyway, except for the gassing, these coincidences are related to God. I have never been a born again Christian and became an atheist at the age of 18 so there is a very small domain. Also there are the coincidences about my church. Besides that guy who sounds like he used to live in my flat, there are two people that work in the office next door to me. They asked a mutual friend at church about me and we got introduced. They are the only other people I know who work near where I work.

The first two services I went to were Q & A services. The topics were hell and science. I asked tough questions during the service. They haven't had services like that since. (though they still call it "Q & A"). There is also a guy who used to be a programmer where I worked - there are currently 5 employees in the office (including the management). I still haven't made him a friend on facebook but I've told him about things I've found on his page - e.g. he dressed up in a Lego costume (I also am a fan). He has visited my wife at work twice. He also said he used to have coffee breaks with people in a mental ward. (my wife does a similar thing for her job) Sometimes we don't get on though - one time I was being aggressive about how I don't fully believe in the Christmas stories and how I am against YEC.
Earlier I had sold him a copy of my book:
https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...ncensored-Guide-to-the-Christmas-Stories-quot
He eventually paid me (though I didn't require it) and since he seemed interested in it I asked him about his opinions.
The pastor and others at the church gave me a lot of feedback on Facebook while I was writing it.
 
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Well it turned out that the guy has moved around a lot and the street we live in sounded familiar to him and the area of the street we live in (near the end) also sounded like a place where he lived. But the place in the suburb he used to live was actually the next street over (parallel to mine). Still that's pretty close. I was saying to him that it would have been very unlikely that he would have lived in the same house.

He is a state school chaplain (with only a secular youth work certificate) and studies a diploma of theology part time. He has been a Christian for five years and no-one in his immediate family are. He used to be into partying a lot. He had been working for a charity that tried to stop human trafficking and he was impressed by how loving the Christians were there and became a Christian. We talked about YEC and Ray Comfort and my questions in the hell and science services and also about my Christmas book. He was saying that it was amazing that Jesus fulfilled many prophecies in the OT. (he happened to also be studying that in his theology course). I showed in my Christmas book how Matthew and Luke (and John) were aware of many prophecies but fulfilled them in their own ways (or not, in the case of John and David/Bethlehem). He still wasn't convinced after talking about many of the examples in my book and I said "well I'm not saying I've proved it". Later I was talking about how a guy on facebook is using the talking donkey as evidence that the Bible is ridiculous. He said yes the Bible IS ridiculous. He also said that much of it is very difficult. I was talking about Numbers 15 and the stoning of the guy who gathered sticks on the Sabbath. I talked to him about the church group he goes to. I knew all of the people who went to that group. It included a guy that I used to work with as a programmer. There was also a couple that had a very hot girl and a guy who is studying theology. I asked if they were dating but I was surprised to hear they're married now. Anyway the guy got along very well with my flatmates and their mother and it seems he will be visiting again sometime.

When we were talking about YEC I showed him this on my phone
http://www.oldearth.org/tract.html
I thought he was checking his messages on his phone but he was actually reading that site on my phone. I was just rereading it now and I'm seeing good arguments there that I forgot about.

Also he went from saying that the holy spirit basically dictated the Bible to saying that the main thing is that the general theme is true.
 
Sarpedon:
It is a problem when people dehumanize other people. But in my life and in the Maundy Thursday service I am trying to find the humanity in people.

Sort of related: this is from David Icke in 2005 - maybe he also had that idea earlier.
https://archive.org/stream/DavidIck...y+Truth,+Everything+Else+Is+Illusion_djvu.txt
....The three types of 'human': on the left is the pure software program, the horse with no rider, which includes the 'pure' Illuminati bloodlines; the centre image represents the majority of 'humans' who are self-aware consciousness, but trapped in the illusion and dominated by the program; and on the right is symbolised the much smaller- but rapidly growing - number of people who are connected in awareness to consciousness beyond the Matrix....
BookReaderImages.php
 
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